Why so many Our Lady’s? What the Versions of Mary mean for us?

Jay,

Thanks for hitting-on an interesting topic - the site has been a bit dull lately (in my humble opinion.)

Please explain the many forms of Mary - the "Virgins," i.e. "Virgin of Guadalupe" and "Lady of Fatima" and the "Black Madonna." Does the RCC believe these to be the same Mary, the mother of Christ? As a Protestant, I move to cover my eyes in the expectation of explosive Carribbean voodoo dances and cock fights when worship involving these different names begins.

Please explain. I'd like to get over this huge RCC hurdle.

Frightfully yours,
Michael O.

Understood, Michael - it gets tough for those of us with families when summer rolls around.

To your question: yes, these are all understood as the same Mother of Christ. However, it's important to distinguish the truly "Catholic" forms of Marian adoration (not worship) from others that have popped up in non-Christian religions (much as we see Mary Magdalene popping up everywhere these days). The Catholic forms of Mary all tend to focus on an apparation or on a special quality of hers. Often even the apparitions call us to some special endearment or pressing need, so they have a unique focus as well.

So there's no "hocus pocus" or worship. It's important to point out that Catholics view the Mass as worship and would never hold a mass where the body and blood of Mary was consumed. Prayer is not worship, but merely a form of conversing with God or His angels and saints in heaven. I'll start pulling together an explanation of the various images of Mary, which could be another interesting post ;-)

Hope this helps. Broken/Burnt and WWWO can jump in with their thoughts as well.

God bless,
Jay

Michael

nice note...thats a good one "cock fights." Had me rolling :) I cringe when I see those things too. And the voodoo shaman with all those votives and the powder of dead whatever... You know I think the dark one uses a bit of truth with a lot of diversion to put people behind one last wall, one last hurdle.

To pierce that final obstruction I would point you to honest pleading prayer to our Lord for the truth and the grace to embrace what that may be or as Ratisbonne did, a challenge to Our Lady. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10115a.htm

In Love

when we were one

Hello Michael,

Before continuing the discussion, I would like to know if we are agreed on at least two points.

1. Catholics do not worship Mary.
2. Asking someone to pray for you does not constitute idolatry - even if they cannot hear you.

The direction of our discussion depends very much on what you think about the above two points.

Jay, WWWO and Burnt,

Thanks for your responses. Burnt - I understand RCC theology on prayer to the Saints. My point is the lack of education within the Catholic church. I come from a Dutch Reformed background where learning and knowledge are fundamental - not necessarity in my case, however....

Does Catholism promote independant thought? Or is intellectualism suffocated within the rules and hard, bureaucratic regulations of the Vatican?

Why don't priests encourage Bible studies? I know this string could be seen as an oxymoron, but please take interest.

Thanks,
Michael O.

Michael wrote:
My point is the lack of education within the Catholic church. I come from a Dutch Reformed background where learning and knowledge are fundamental

I come from a Roman Catholic background where learning and knowledge are fundamental.

Does Catholism promote independant thought? Or is intellectualism suffocated within the rules and hard, bureaucratic regulations of the Vatican?

Some of the faithful are starting to say that it allows too much so-called "free thinking" and independent thought.

Why don't priests encourage Bible studies?

"Small Christian Communities" seem to have a lot of support these days. Bible studies have been going on for many years. The priests and bishops have been nagging the faithful to read the Bible for centuries. I think Bible studies are encouraged. I think a better question is to ask why few people join Bible studies.

In general, independent thought and doctrinal orthodoxy often have trouble going together. The pre-Vatican II Church was stereotyped as promoting doctrinal orthodoxy at the expense of independent thought. The post-Vatican II Church was stereotyped as promoting independent thought over doctrinal orthodoxy.

Fortunately, Our Lord raises up faithful people who can do both. Pope John Paul II (in Theology of the Body for example) and Benedict XVI (in God is Love) both show by example that an independent thinker can provide new insights which build upon rather than tear down previously known doctrines. Saint Francis de Sales (in Philothea) is an excellent example as well.

Michael,

Its funny... about as funny as shamans but the thought that Catholics overly intellectualize Christianity is the more common observation. Catholics demand the truth. See arguably the greatest of all thinkers St. Thomas Aquinas. Perhaps you would be interested in a book written by a returned Catholic who solves a problem Einstein couldn't solve... A Princeton trained scientist Dr. Rizzi in his book "The Science before Science," shows the relevance of philosophy in the modern world and gives insight into the white washing of history against the church.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1418465046/sr=8-1/qid=1156192259/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8188118-8668936?ie=UTF8

In Love

when we were one

My point is the lack of education within the Catholic church. I come from a Dutch Reformed background where learning and knowledge are fundamental - not necessarity in my case, however....

This stuck out to me as I read it (I assume you meant 'necessarily' instead of 'necessarity'.) I grew up cradle Catholic but I spent much time going to Protestant churches once I got 'saved'. Everybody in the various bible churches I went to talked about knowing the Word and God and also about being like the early Christians. They talked up about how grounded in the Truth and educated they were. But when you boiled it down, they didn't know anything and didn't care to step out of their comfort zones to learn. There were a very few people who were actually interested in really learning. The person who is now my wife was one of them.

I'm betting what you're seeing is the same principle among Catholics. Since you're outside of the culture, you can see it easier than we can inside of it. Most Catholics (I know I'll get flamed for this, but this is a true statement regardless) don't care and are spiritually dead. I'd bet the percentages are the no different between Catholics and Protestants in that regard.

The deadly sin of 'sloth' should have been labeled as 'sleep' according to may early Church fathers. 'Sleep' meaning spiritually sleeping or lazy. Think about it, its sin of the same type as lust or greed.

DJ,
I think you're correct - "spiritually dead" is an accurate description for many Roman Catholics. How does the RCC explain the tremendous immorality in Latin American culture? The RCC has had an ecclesiactical monopoly from Mexico to Argentina since the 16th century. However, the men of Latin America are known to be some of the most corrupt and morally bankcrupt on earth. Why is this? Why is it that in order to find good, moral, dependable men, Latin women must marry "gringos" - who are usually WASPs.

There is no intellectual comparison between the sermons I hear from Dutch Reformed pastors and those sermons I hear from Roman Catholic priests. The Calvinist/Dutch Reformed pastors unleach their God-given intellect to inspire the church to a higher, better Christian life, in accord with the Holy Scriptures. I find that most RCC priests are not capapable of such spiritual inspiration during mass. Why? James was. Peter was. Paul certainly was.

Roman Catholics discount the spiritual benefits of good preaching. While RCC priests merely feed their parisheners spiritual baby food ("Be nice to eachother, don't fight, and now come forward for the Body and the Blood), other Calvinist/Dutch Reformed pastors seriously prepare their sermons, aiming to educate their people to live better Christian lives.

Most RCC members don't understand basic RCC concepts. How many Catholics understand intercessory prayer? Through Christ? Through other Christians? Through the saints? I think most Roman Catholics in Latin America believe that Mary is part of the Trinity, e.g. Father, Son and Mother. This is why Protestants historically have been so turned-off from intecessory prayer with Mary. A few good sermons from Pope Benedict on the proper use and view of intercessory prayer would help. Educate your people!

Best,
Michael O.

Michael, for many years I thought like you. After all, how on earth could the Roman Catholic Church claim that all the elements of Christ's Church can be found in the Roman Catholic one when it was plainly obvious that the Protestant community was fighting the good fight?

Like you I noticed that when it came to evangelism there was Campus Crusade for Christ, when it came to helping the poor there was mustard seed and Salvation Army, when it came to discipleship there was IVCF, when it came to fidelity in marriage there was promise keepers, when it came to fighting to allow the public to use the word "Christmas" at the end of December the Protestants were front and center.

This got explained to me a few months ago. Belonging to the Church that Christ founded is like having a Ferrari to drive in. Belonging to another one is like having a Pinto. And so to continue that analogy, the people driving the Ferraris are being beat on the racetrack by people driving the Pintos. You gotta admire the driver.

I have nothing but admiration for Protestants who lead such holy lives despite missing out on so many things. If you say people like myself who have been given so much more and should embrace what we've been given more deeply then I would add a hearty amen. But if you say that the Roman Catholic teachings are flawed and I should abandon them, then I would say that if our lifestyles are a pale shadow of yours right now - then how much worse would we be without the Roman Catholic Church's teachings?

As for the "spiritual baby food", I would like to point out that the Catholic communities are merely going through the same trials that rocked the Protestant world in the early 20th century. Namely, the scourge of liberalism (denying the Virgin Birth, denying the personal return of Jesus, rejecting the authority of Scripture, explaining away the miracles in the Bible etc...) that plagued the Protestants in 1920's infected the Roman Catholic Church in the 1960's.

Most Protestant communities split along the evangelical-liberal lines (for example, Student Christian ministries and InterVarsity Christian fellowhip were once a single organization but they split over these issues) and a few like the Anglicans and Presbyterians remained as a single organization with evangelicals and liberals both entrenched (though it remains to be seen whether the Anglican community will remain organizationally united with the ordination of practicing homosexual bishops).

So deep is the split between evangelical and liberal in the Protestant community that evangelicals do not even consider liberal Protestants as Christians. Perhaps instead of comparing the best examples from your community with the worst examples from ours you would do well to remember that you purified your Church from liberalism by expulsion rather than education.

But getting back to the influence of liberalism on the Roman Catholic Church, a remarkable thing has happened. The liberal forces have not been able to splinter the Catholic Church (as it has in many Protestant Churches) nor have they become entrenched (as they have in the Presbyterian and Anglicans have). In fact, the power and relevance of liberalism is waning. Thanks to the Holy Spirit working through Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Ratzinger, Mother Angelica, and countless others the tide is turning. Organizations faithful to the Magisterium, such as Couples for Christ, Catholic Christian Outreach and Saint Joseph's Covenant Keepers, have active teaching ministries.

You think we should better educate our people in the truths of the Roman Catholic faith? Great idea, join us and help out - you seem pretty level headed. Just think how much more the Holy Spirit could work through you if you had access to all Seven Sacraments and the Infallible teachings of the Magisterium.

I am a faithful and devout catholic. I love Our Lady very much, but one thing I've always struggled with is Matthew 11:11...

"Amen, I say to you, among those born of women there has been none greater than John the Baptist; yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

What is the "Catholic Response" to Jesus saying that none born of a woman is greater than John ythe Baptist, w/ regards to Mary being Queen of the saints, sinless, etc etc.

Please help me reconcile this.

Thanks,

Chris

Michael, DJ and Burnt

Nice dialog... I would only add that we have to be careful of plucking out splinters from a brother's eye when there are planks sitting in our own.

"Spiritually dead" is a relative term. We may be spiritually dead to a Mother Theresa. I try not to tell someone they are spiritually dead.

To judge the morality of an entire people seems a bit holier than thou. "RC's have had a spiritual monopoly on the entire Latin America for 500 yrs yet they are still corrupt!"

Lets see. When God wanted the greatest empire in the history of the world converted in 400 years he chose the Catholics not the Dutch Reformers. When he wanted the Civilizations of the new world converted he again chose the Catholics. But that is not all true is it. Because as we can see he chose the Protestants to convert the northern hemisphere quite well via genocide...Lutheran Germany tried that again in WWII. So lets see... the Catholics allow the converts to live the protestants choose genocide. The few surviving nations of native americans are wrought with alcoholism, poverty and illiteracy... Then again there is the great leadership of the Dutch in South Africa... Ya the converts do well... if they survive.

If crime and morality is the marker...forget joining us... join the Mormons.

http://www.isteve.com/Crime_Imprisonment_Rates_by_Race.htm

In Love

when we were one

Chris,

Before reconciling Mary (born of the woman Saint Anne) being greater than John the Baptist, first reconcile "the least in the kingdom of heaven" as greater than John the Baptist.

In some sense, John the Baptist was the last of the generation of prophets. The generation of prophets was followed by the generation of Christians. Or as Jesus says, "the kingdom of heaven". Christians have been blessed, through being "born-again" (Catholics understand this as baptism, Protestants understand this as a personal declaration of faith), with such great riches we have been made "greater than John the Baptist".

Now if the most lackadaisical Christian is "greater than John the Baptist", how much more so is Our Lady, the first and greatest Christian, "greater than John the Baptist"?

WWWO, Jesus tells us to first pluck planks out of our eyes so that we may see clearly to pluck splinters out of our brothers. This would suggest that we are still allowed to help our brethren by helping them realize and correct our faults. Similarly, we can expect the same to happen to us.

Michael, one closing thought: Something that convinces me that the Roman Catholic faith is the true Church Christ founded is that I notice two things going on in Protestants communities that never happen in Catholic communities.

First, I notice when Protestants say and do wonderful things (e.g. promote respect for life in the womb and traditional marriage) - they sometimes do so in a way which betrays the Reformation teachings (Sola Scriptura in particular cannot condemn polygamy and abortion). This suggests the Reformation teachings are deficient.

Second, I notice when Protestants say and promote bad things (e.g. promote same-sex ordination and marriage) they do so in a way consistent with Reformation teachings. After all, every believer has the right to interpret Scripture differently than the previous generation. And so one can interpret Leviticus and Romans as condemning "abusive" same sex relations but allowing for "healthy ones" - and remain a good Reformation Protestant. This also suggests deficiency in Reformation teachings.

Talk all you want about "spiritually dead" Roman Catholics, but until you can show me a dead one that fully embraces and lives the Roman Catholic Church teachings I will only say that you and I should both respond by more fully embracing the Roman Catholic Church teachings.

There is no such thing as a good Roman Catholic who is spiritually dead. But there is a such thing as a good Protestant (namely one who embraces the Reformation errors to the point that they live out the dreadful consequences) who is spiritually dead.

Dear Burnt,
As you may know I a regular to this site, but have not been a frequent poster over the last few months as in the past. However, I have been reading your posts and have gained more and more respect for your viewpoints and how articulate you present them. You seem to be more reflective and analytical in your posts. If am not being too nosy here may I ask if there has been a change (for the better) in your spritual life, in addition to the name change? Regardless, thank you for your postings and may God bless you in all things.
In Christ,
Matthew

WWWO,

Good points. Just like Roman Catholics, the Dutch Reformed Calvinists and Lutherans have made mistakes and taken Christians teachings and Biblical passages out of context historically.

In these days, many protestant denominations have lost their vision and discipline, and have become driven recently by teachings on the last days and bestselling books on personal improvement. "Feel-Gooders" and "Last Days Obsessionists" believe theology, history and academic intellect are moot, it seems. Many protestant churches do not state the Apostles' Creed or bother with the Sacraments. The threads are coming apart. Traditional, northern European-based, Reformed denominations are leaving their rich, theological roots due to "peer pressure" and are now following the lead of the evangelical and charismatic church cultures of the Southern U.S. This isn't sustainable. These churches won't be around in 50 years because they will have forgotten the creeds that bound them in the first place. History matters. Wisdom is found in the elders, not in the teenagers, who now indirectly run services in many protestant congregations. Lasting Christian leadership comes from 60 and 70 somethings, not high school praise groups.

Having stated that, I doubt the Roman Catholic Church's ability to bear fruit in these churches' stead. WWWO, Burnt -- If the educated Calvinists' critique of the RCC passes away, will the RCC culture fall into its tyrannical, ugly tendancies once again? Who will keep the RCC in check? Monopolies lose their way, just as the European Church did in the centuries leading up to 1517.

Michael O.

Michael O,

Did you know that John Calvin condemned the use of contraception and taught that Mary was perpetually virgin?

Michael

Thank you for taking my comments in stride. After they were posted I noted how bullet like they were. And bullets cause bleeding... I don't want to cause more bleeding to the body of Christ. Sometimes my posts are far too sharp.

Re: Your question regarding the "monopoly" of faith if we hypothetically return to 1 Catholic faith. I think you need to direct that question to Jesus rather than us. If you read around Jn 17:20 you will see the desire of one faith by our Lord. If you follow to Eph 4:5 that prayer is repeated by Paul. When you hear those that say hey we are all one Catholic faith right now we just have different views on (abortion, divorce, homosexuality...)" I say this is the reason Paul includes 1 Cor 1:10. Here Paul compels us to be of "one mind." Not 30,000 denominations!

So if Christ expects us to be one church how will that stand...how will this monopoly continue? I think history speaks clearly that the love of people in the church may wane at times but the holy Spirit always provides renewal. It is also neat to see a firm doctrinal stance throughout history. I would ask God how do you plan on running this monopoly... I think he has answered in Matt 16:18.

In Love

when we were one

Michael O,

I've always wondered two things about Calvinism:

1. If nothing we do makes any difference to our salvation or the salvation of others, why bother doing anything? (Roman Catholics believe that what we do can make a difference and that God miracuously multiplies our puny and insufficient efforts as he did when a little boy donated his fish and bread to the disciples to help them feed the multitude)

2. If God desires all to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-4) and we have no free will, then why doesn't everyone get saved? (Roman Catholics believe that God gifted us with a free will that allows us to reject his gift of salvation even though God always desires our salvation)

Burnt,

The five points of Calvinism can can be recalled by the acronym TULIP, as you may know. This can be GOOGLE'd of course.

Regarding your questions, Burnt:

1. Calvin's belief in predestination is drawn from the works of St. Augustine, who originally expounded on all Christians' predestination. Salvation is not something to be earned by works, which are evidences of salvation. Salvation is given to us freely by the Lord. We must merely accept this absolutely irresistable gift. Accepting the Lord's offer of salvation is the only step required. When that step is truely taken, good works will occur in abundance.

2. Please define "free will." Many believe that man's will is not free, but rather in bondage to sin. Do you believe someone actually "freely" chooses hell over heaven?

Michael O.

Michael, I am familiar with the TULIP doctrines - hence my questions which I feel remain unanswered. Allow me to rephrase.

1. When you tell us to do good things like educate our people, my first response is to reply amen. But then I wonder, why would you tell me to do this? After all, if I'm one of the elect I will do this good thing without needing you to tell me. And if I'm not one of the elect, it's not like your words will bring me to repentance. We can carry this a step further. Why should we educate our people? Those who are elect will obey God's decrees whether we teach it to them and those who are not will reject them even if we teach them. Are we left with the conclusion that the elect teach and evangelize but there is no actual point or purpose to such good works?

2. For purposes of this discussion, let me define "free will" as the ability to resist God's grace - to freely choose hell over heaven. So to rephrase my question without the term "free will", if God desires all to be saved and his grace is irresistable, does it not follow that everyone will be saved?

Of all the TULIP teachings, irresistable grace seems most at odds with Catholic teaching. Before debating which is correct, however, I would like to first understand Calvinist thinking - which is why I ask my questions.

Hi Michael O

I'd like to pick you up on a point you made in your August 18, 2006 posting, ie "the lack of education in the RCC", and link it with the original heading of this discussion, ie "Why so many Our Lady's?"

Let's look at what Mary has done, in fact, it's still work in progress, in the St James Parish, Medjugorje, Bosnia. According to reports I've read, the improvement in the peoples' spirituality, over the 25 years Mary has been working with them, is as remarkable as the miracles and "signs".

How did she do it? She educated them. Got them back to basics, just like the early Christians. Nothing fancy. No post-graduate stuff or high-flying theology.

Things like:
faith ("There is one God and one faith. Believe firmly." And belief in the apparitions themselves);
prayer (the Mass is the highest form of prayer and pray the rosary (specifically for Catholics), use an "active approach", "3 hours a day", "with increased desire and joy", "pray that the Holy Spirit will descend");
penance, including fasting (on bread and water, Wednesdays and Fridays);
conversion (coming closer to God for believers, having faith in the one true God for unbelievers)and, specifically for Catholics, monthly confession.

These lead to peace of the heart, the peace that comes only from Jesus. That's the foundation. From there you get peace in families, communities, countries and the world.

What about Catholics in other parts of the world. I can't say that I speak from specific knowledge, but, I suspect that many, perhaps the majority, of parishes, even today, would be more like the "before Mary" St James Parish than the current one.

Is this a problem, timewise? I mean, don't we have plenty of time? Apparently not, according to Mary. She has told the visionaries that "this is the last time she will be appearing on earth in this way".

She has confided 10 secrets to 3 of the visionaries who no longer see her on a regular basis, and 9 secrets to the other 3 visionaries. Most of these secrets apparently forewarn of catastrophic future events, some of which can still be minimized or prevented, provided the world converts. Much like her warnings on WWII, Communism and Russia at Fatima in 1917.

In fact, to put an upper time limit on things, one of the visionaries, who is now about 40 years old, has been told these events will take place within her lifetime. And, just looking at the possible consequences of abrupt climate change, those warnings take on a whole new meaning.

So, Mary is not just talking to St James Parish. She's addressing the whole world.

But, the main thrust of her messages is not doom and gloom. It's love. Reconciliation. Peace. Prayer. Fasting. Conversion. Then we will have nothing to fear. In fact, the whole purpose of her coming to Medjugorje is draw us closer to Jesus. So that we will be happy on earth and not even notice our passing on to be with her in heaven. Which is her desire for us all.

So, to respond to your point about Catholics needing education, I believe the answer is emphatically "yes". How do we go about it? Follow the St James, Medjugorje model, step by step. But, with great urgency.

Praised be Jesus

Brian R

Hello, it is very nice and interesting.
Thanks a lot
Congrats.
Fr. S. Jeyaraj