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I’ll try to answer your question, Joe.

Yes, the Bible records demon possessions but does not state that they will always occur, or that they will always occur with the same frequency, or that demoniacs will always manifest in the same fashion. In fact I don’t see any mention of demon possession in the New Testament outside of the gospels and Acts. If it was such an important part of Christian ministry as Joe asserts, then one would expect much more discussion of it!

Furthermore, if as Christians we are “sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Eph 1:13, cf. 2 Cor 1:21-22) then we would not expect God Himself to cohabit with a demon, in other words, we would never expect that Christian could be demon-possessed. Therefore, it would not be a normal part of the experience of a follower of Christ to encounter a possessed person, excepting gifted evangelists who come into frequent contact with the unsaved and thus encounter active spiritual resistance (for an example, see the example of Philip in Acts 8:6-7).

I have not personally witnessed a “major” exorcism (as opposed to baptism) but I know from trusted sources that they do occur. No, it is not an ordinary part of Christian life, but as explained above, this is just as I would expect. As a point of comparison, I wonder how many Catholics have actually been witness to an exorcism?

In Him, Kaffinator

My two cents:

Charismatics and Non-Denominationals are big into exorcisms. Too big at times. Have a couple of friends who's son had turrets. They church hopped for most of his young life, and (they claim) every church they went to, they got, "Oh, he's possessed."

They didn't start treating it properly until he was almost out of the house. Now he's screwed up, hates church and does a lot of drugs.

...and...

My wife's brother goes to a Charismatic church where they're still working on getting the demons out of this one poor woman who had a very bad upbringing (parents were Satanists...the bad kind, not the 'hey, lets do drugs, wear black and talk bad about Christians' type)

Though, being a Catholic, I've always wondered if a Non-Catholic minister is as capable as a Catholic priest to exorcise demons. Obviously, Non-Catholics will say yes since they don't view the Catholic priesthood as carrying any special authority. But will Catholics say yes as well? Or is the extra authority of a priest in effect here? This is ignoring the effects of holy water, the Eucharist, and whatnot, which are known to be very powerful tools for priests.

And Kaffinator, it was Jay, not Joe who posted.

Don't you hate it when that happens? :)

Having spent a few years in an Evangelical community, it seemed like the Pentecostals did more exorcisms than the Evangelicals (Baptists, Methodists, Mennonite). I was also told that such "spiritual warfare" was much more common in South America (where the Pentecostals dominate the Protestant scene). I'd say ignoring this dimension of Christian life is a North American phenomenon rather than a "Protestant" problem. A missionary to South America was doing fund-raising in North America and he told us "all about" the work he was doing at a service. Later when only the "keeners" were around, someone asked about spiritual warfare in his mission. He answered there was lots of it (and plenty of exorcism) because the unsaved often dabbled in the occult. He also said that he had been advised never to speak of it in North America because people would not support his mission and assume he was telling lies.

Though I do have a question for you Jay. If you think only priests can do an exorcism, why on earth would you encourage a Protestant to attempt one given what happened to the seven sons of Sceva in the book of Acts?

Ooops, yes. My mistake! Sorry Jay.

BR - if I may comment, it seems clear from the context of Acts 19 that the sons of Sceva were not even believers in Christ but merely trying to ape Paul's success. So does this example really apply?

The examples of exorcism I know of were not cast out by a person exactly, but rather by petition to Jesus Christ. No demon was ever cast out by anyone's authority but His. And frankly I'm pretty sure that demons could care less about magic water or religious symbols. BR, are you saying that Jesus only responds to the call of a priest? Or that He needs us to use special equipment in order that His Spirit can work effectually?

It's a sad truth about American Christianity that you point out. I've heard it said about Americans that non-Christians want to believe in spiritual things but not God, while Christians want to believe in God but not spiritual things! But thanks to our Pentecostal brethren I think we are learning to pay more attention to the active presence and work of the Holy Spirit.

a) I agree with the statement about North America. Good point. I've heard my fair share this stuff from Africans as well.

b) A possible interpretation of CCC 1673 could be considered within the context of it being instruction to Catholics (since non-Catholics aren't expected to read the Catechism.) When it comes to issues of obedience, there's a huge difference in how it plays out when comparing Catholicism vs. Protestantism.

c) Everybody assumes that a good Christian can't be possessed, but I believe it was Emma Schmidt that was already a good Christian before she got possessed. Her father cursed her for not sleeping with him, or something like that, but she was still a good Catholic before the possession. (correct me if I'm wrong on this account, but I'm pretty sure it was her.)

Kaff,

It has never been clear to me why the Seven Sons got into trouble. The New Testament mentions Jewish Priests were able to drive out demons. Acts 19:13 suggests that the Seven Sons of Sceva had previously and regularly driven out demons before knowing of Jesus or Paul. The only hint was that they did something different from usual by invoking the name of Jesus.

So who can invoke the name of Jesus to drive out demons? The Protestants I knew were not foolish enough to recommend it for "all believers". When spiritual warfare came up, there were always very strong recommendations against "ordinary believers" attempting an exorcism. Some of the reasons given: you need the discernment to know if the person will become Christian after being exorcised otherwise seven demons will re-possess the person and leave them worse off, if there is the slightest gap in your "spiritual armor" the devil will afflict you, or it's as unpleasant as cleaning a toilet bowl with your tongue.

So if we believe that some sort of special training, wisdom, power, or authority is required we may very well inquire as to what it is. One extreme would be to say that since the demons recognized Jesus, and his apostle Paul, then one could say that granting people the power to cast out demons is an apostolic gift. Hence the need for permission from a bishop. But, as Jay notes, the Bible tells of people casting out in Jesus name who are outside of the "apostolic circle" and that Jesus rebuked the apostles for trying to shut "the outsiders" down.

This would suggest that the power to cast out demons also resides in people outside the visible Christian community and that the rules are not so well known within the visible Christian community.

To apply Jesus advice to today's situation, it would mean that Catholics should not stop groups who are successful at casting out demons (e.g. Pentecostals) from doing their thing. What I find shocking is that Jay would suggest that the Protestants who do not usually do this sort of thing "give it a try". We know for a fact that Jesus said some demons only come out with prayer and fasting and that some Protestant denominations refuse to fast because Jesus disciples never fasted (Jesus is in our hearts, and how can the wedding party fast when the bridegroom is present). One shudders to think of what would happen when someone who refuses to fast tries an exorcism.

That being said, my knowledge in this area is pitifully small. I spent a good chunk of my "Protestant years" focussing on apologetics, Catholic vs Protestant debates, and Evangelical vs Liberal debates. When I returned to the Roman Catholic Church I never heard much about exorcisms. The first story I heard in Roman Catholic Circles was a few years ago when Pope John Paul II attempted an exorcism at a public event because one of the people attending manifested signs of possession.

The voice of the possessed was loud, terrifying, and inhuman and in fact refused to leave when the Pope invoked the name of Jesus. The tabloids picked that one up pretty quickly. "Pope fails to cast out demon". "Demon too strong for even the Pope to exorcise".

Kaff

I'm not sure what goes on in an exorcism (Catholic or non) and frankly I don't wanna know except that the human is liberated by grace...too freaky for me man.

I totally agree with your emphasis on the source of the power.

Indeed we must recognize that the power is Christ. Many forget this and think objects in themselves have power to serve the will of God without the grace of God involved with the item.

But we must be careful to realize that God demands the use of material throughout history. Failure to recognize the healing grace of God in material ordained by Him drags us into that old gutter "Gnosticism." Where when we were one and Gnostics claimed to be truly us and denied the humanity of Christ because it was material (opposite of Arianism). According to evangelical Baptist Rod Bennett (in his book Four Witnesses as he reviewed early Roman Empire documents on Christians/Gnostics and the writings of the 1st-3rd Century Christians and Gnostics) other practices that differed between the two claimed groups included: occasional child sacrifice (G), symbolic Eucharist (G), symbolic baptism (G)...all stemming from the denial of our omnipotent God's ability to alter matter.

From David Macdonald's site I again post http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/sacraments_sacramentals.htm
some good sacramental stuff. David notes that Billy Graham, another evangelical sees sacramenatals IMHO in a very biblical light..."The Evangelist Billy Graham in his last trip to Ottawa, said "after we leave this hockey arena, even the steel beams will have absorbed our prayers and will affect everyone who comes into this building for secular events."

This is consistent with: In the book of Acts we find "So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hand of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the EVIL SPIRITS came out of them." (Act 19:11-12);

Again I have no idea if Catholic or non exorcisms use sacramentals but clearly there is scriptural evidence for that purpose. And I for one will not be the guy to tell an exorcist Catholic or otherwise "by my as usual infallible personal scriptual interpretation, the early christians were wrong to use sacramentals. This passage is pretzeled improperly by ancient (Catholics and Billy Graham) zealots and here in 2005 I declare by the powers endowed to me somewhere in scripture ignore that verse...I don't like it!"

Ya then the exorcist may say "ok show me how your stuff works?"

In the Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ

when we were one

BR - If there are Christian denominations that refuse to fast, I’ve never heard of them! I don’t think that a prohibition on fasting can be justified Biblically on the sole grounds of Jesus’ answer to those who complained about his disciples not fasting. Especially since there is at least one case in Acts in which Christians fast when seeking God’s guidance.

WWWO - My knowledge of exorcism is also very limited, I’ve never witnessed one. So, I’m with you that I am not going to go around as if I’m some kind of expert on it. I would still maintain that there is a big jump between saying “our prayers have sanctified this place” and “to cast out this demon I’ll need my ‘demon removal kit’”. It’s not that God doesn’t make use of matter (after all, He created man from dust and even incarnated as human matter). It’s just that we humans like to take the matter too far and worship relics rather than the living God.

And, by the way, thanks for the window into your view of how non-Romanists approach doctrinal issues (the “usual infallible personal scriptural interpretation” crack). It’s rather entertaining, actually. I could complain in response that you are merely brandishing your “usual infallible personal interpretation of tradition” but that’s too easy. So I’ll just say that as long as you maintain this parody of non-Roman beliefs you’re going to have difficulty witnessing your beliefs to people like me.

“Show me how your stuff works” heh…the exorcisms I know of didn’t require holy water or crosses. They required people laying their hands on the afflicted and praying hard to Jesus for deliverance, which He granted.

In Him, Kaff

Jay:
Merry Christmas and Happy New year to you and everyone else on this site.

Jay, I have to say that here is another topic in which you start off trying to drive a wedge between Roman catholics and "protestants". Who says that "protestants" don't perform exorcisms? I have heard many stories of "protestant" exorcisms although I must admit I have never seen or participated in one. Demons do exist and we have personal and biblical evidence for them. I agree with Kaff that maybe the reason we don't hear too much about it in the Christian community is because most (but not all)in the christian community are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and "greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world". Such is the case of Jesus' story about the "strongman" in the house. We probably would encounter more people in need of exorcisms if we were out more among non-believers spreading the gospel to the lost. (me included). These are just my thoughts but I am no expert on the subject.

May God bless you always,
Ernie

Kaff

I again agree with you oooo scary not even new year and wwwo already turning over a new leaf!

You know Scott Hahn has this analogy I suppose you could put any religion into it: We all have to cross the English Channel we have a row boat others are swimming. Offer the others the boat and if they want to swim so be it. Some will make it some won't.

I suppose I could say that I don't care if you swim and reject my offer to join me in my boat...then again I think my sarcasm has irritated you to the point that you would rather drown than enter the boat with the likes of me.

That is not my goal. I apologize in the electronic ethos: mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa (wwwo beats chest).

And I agree again as does the CC that we ONLY worship and/or adore God (Trinity). If anyone misunderstands in your walk at your church please explain to them that you frequent a site of Catholic Jesus geeks and this is what we believe.

Can I get a CCC post from a browser?:)

In the Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ

when we were one

Don't worry, your posts always make me smile WWWO.

Believe it or not there are non-RCC people who defend the Roman church when people make unwarranted attacks. The folks I choose to hang out with are not into RCC-bashing, and I hope I don't come off that way in my posts. Yes, there are differences but they are not as great as some would have us believe.

I appreciate the offer of the boat :-) but if you don't mind a little addition to your analogy: perhaps we are both making our way to the opposite shore...as you beckon from the shuffleboard deck of the Queen Mary I say, thanks and all, but with a little more work this here raft of mine is moving just as fast, and it makes it a little easier to rescue folks who are "dead in the water".

See you on the other side!
Kaff

Kaff: In regards to your comment about Protestants who don't believe in fasting, trust me, there are many out there who don't believe in it. Actually, my wife's father, a Protestant, is the first (and only) Protestant I ever encountered that actually fasts regularly, or at all.

Everybody: Just got the book "An Exorcist: More Stories" by Fr. Gabriele Amorth. He's the chief exorcist of Rome. Its very interesting. Its not full of creepy, don't read before bedtime stories. Its more pastoral. Very good for both Catholics and Protestants to read, I don't think its too divisive. It talks a lot about protecting ourselves by prayer (gee, whodathunk..) And that things aren't simply organized into discreet categories of "he's possessed" and "he's not." I'd highly recommend it.

Quick definition, an Exorcism is a specific Rite of deliverance that can only be performed by a priest or bishop with the priest having to have the permission of the bishop. As a Rite, it has the extra authority of the Church behind it, which is compounded by the fact that the person performing it has extra effect being a priest or bishop.

However, 'deliverance' prayers can be just as strong if not stronger if the faith of the person, and especially the community, is very strong. He has stories that illustrate this. Deliverance prayers can also be free form. However, the Our Father is a deliverance prayer as well (so is "St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle..." prayer.)

Just finished the book on exorcisms I posted about above. I was wrong, it does get a little creepy about halfway through the book.

So if you get it, and you don't like reading scary stories, start reading only during the day time once you hit about page 100 or so.

I am a life long Catholic and proud of it!
I went through a stage where i believed in God but not necessarily in the devil. So i went on doing things that i should not have thinking oh well God loves me anyways. My parents have always been pretty involved in the church and they have seen things that most people would write off as fantasy. They never talk about these things unless they are asked or if the time is appropriate. I remember before being really active in the church, my dad would tell that the devil existed and that his greatest weapon is for people not to believe he exists. IF you dont believe he exists than most likely your going to be doing things that you should because you dont have any consequences. Anyways, when he would tell me about the devil i would think my dad is living in the 15th century when they believed in Dragons and such. Here i was going to the University taking classes in Psycology, How in the world was i going to beleive this crap. Well, it took me seeing a very good family friend being possesed that i believed that evil did exist. If someone wants more details about this just email me at viresa@wfrmls.com. They say that God works in misterious ways, well this experience is what got me at full force in the church of Christ. Its funny to see shows even on the Discovery channel about people being possessed who take their possesed to a catholic priest after they were recomended by their protestant minister. an example that even they believe that the catholic church is of Christ. Another example is how satanists conduct their "black masses" and do everything in those "services" completely opposite of what Catholics do. This speaks volumes of the Church, why dont Satanists mock Protestants or anybody else. That should give a clue to our seperated bretheren. It makes me sad how sometimes our seperated bretheren try to do everythins as opposite as they can too. An example is in how we call it exorcism and they completely dislike that word and will call it deliverence. I will pray for all my brothers! May God bless
in Christ and Mary,
Esaul Viramontes

Well,,,,I hate to "burst-your-bubble" buuut I only (also) laughed like crazy at this movie!
CAUSE-THATS-ALL-IT-WAS!!!!!A freakin movie!
The Omen wasnt real either! Why? Because , these movies were O-N-L-Y created to make the viewers scared to death! Heeelllooo, they REALLY succeeded!If ya really want to be "scared" into oblivion, just go outside & face REALITY!!!!

I really feel that I need an exorcist.Is there anyone in your organization that can or will do that?

Sharon,
Go see your local priest.

God bless,
Jay

have there been any incidences where there have been "real" occurances with demonic possession??

Kayla,

In biblical times, Jesus and his disciples cast out demons frequently. In present times, every Roman Catholic Diocese has an exorcist (there used to be more in earlier times). Pope John Paul II publicly attempted (unsuccessfuly) an exorcism several years ago. The possessed woman spoke in a terrifying, inhumane voice which frightened numerous people there.

Came across an article about the "Emily Rose" story. Apparently, the movie was based on a modern true story. Some shocking details from the true story:

1. the woman had an extremely mature Christian faith.
2. the exorcists were told by the demons that Jesus was preventing the demons from leaving.
3. numerous attempts were made to cure her medically as well as spiritually
4. when she died, there was a trial to see if the priests and doctors has acted negligently by not curing her medically - the key point of the trial was whether the supernatural could really have been involved

This was supposedly the doing of the Lord (reminiscent of Job's trials) with the permission of the woman to demonstrate to a secular society (Germany I think) that the supernatural still played a role in the affairs of today. Scary stuff.

demons aren't real, get over yourself

As an Atheist, I don't believe demons or spirits are real. But I have observed many religious people claiming that they do exist. There has been many documented cases of attempts at exorcisms by lay people and clery, preacher, and pastor alike. Some of these attempts ended up with psychical abuse of the possessed when the exorcist couldn't seem to "cast out the demon" and turned to bashing, or strangling the possessed to cast out the demon.

I want to ask this question. Is it healthly to believe is a spirit or being that people find as evil and may use any means to remove it from a proceived possessed person?

Thank you,

No God 4 Rob

I became a reborn christian 3 years ago this past October. Unfortunately I had become inandated with several demons maybe as many as seven befor. They wer like shadows that I could see only briefly. Then suddenly out of no where The Holy spirit apeared. It was a beautiful light that looked liked a sea shell with pink and white leaves surrounded by light. Then the Holy spirit transformed int the Holy Ghost and called for what I believe to be Satan. The holy ghost now set satan to his left and began to read from a book to him. Satan was full of rage he sounded like a wounded animal while the Holy Ghost spoke to Satan in a straight forward matter of fact manner and was extremely fast. Then Satan after receiving his instructions from the Holy Ghost both left without a trace. I could never understand what was being said but I believe that the Holy ghost was giving Satan instructions to take his deamons and go. I will never forget this.

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