September 27, 2005
Praying For The Dead
Why do Catholics pray for the dead? Before we can answer this question there are two points that need to be made. First, the Catholic Church believes that the Body of Christ is One. This simply means that there exists a real unity among ALL members of the Christ's Body regardless of whether they are alive or dead (Jn 17:20-21). Second, the Catholic Church, in her prayers for the dead, is not praying for those souls that she has declared are in heaven (the canonization process will be a later post). Once in heaven, a soul no longer needs our prayers, rather that soul then enters into continual praise and worship of God and also takes on the role of intercessor (Rev 5:8).
Once we have acknowledged these two truths - the unity of Christ's Body and that Catholics do not pray for those souls that we know with certainty are in heaven - then we must address the question of why Christians pray for each other in the first place. When did the practice of praying for others begin? The earliest biblical reference we find is in the book of Genesis:
Now then restore the man's wife; for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you, and you shall live. Gen 20:7
In the New Testament we find Jesus saying:
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you... Matt 5:44
And then in Acts:
And Simon said, "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me." Acts 8:24
Yet no one mentions intercessory prayer more than St. Paul. He continously asks for the prayers of others and tells them that he is praying for them (Rom 1:9, 10:1, 15:30-32; 2 Cor 1:11, 9:14, 13:7; Eph 1:16, 6:18-19; Phil 1:3-5, 1:9; Col 1:9, 4:3, 4:12; 1 Thess 1:2, 5:25; 2 Thess 1:11, 3:1; 1 Tim 2:1-3; 2 Tim 1:3; Philemon 4; and Heb 13:18). Of course, I'm sure that most of us ask others to pray for us and have prayed for others as well. The reason we pray for one another is because we want some "good" for the other. So intercessory prayer is concerned with the good of the other. The greatest good we can want for another is eternal life.
It is based on this understanding that the Catholic Church beseeches us to pray for the dead, specifically the souls in Purgatory. The following are excerpts from two outstanding articles. The first deals with Purgatory and the second with praying for the dead.
"Purgatory Not in Scripture"Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.
Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.
Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.
Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.
- taken from the Catholic Answer's article, Purgatory
The article on praying for the dead is taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Coming to the proof of this doctrine, we find, in the first place, that it is an integral part of the great general truth which we name the communion of saints. This truth is the counterpart in the supernatural order of the natural law of human solidarity. Men are not isolated units in the life of grace, any more than in domestic and civil life. As children in Christ's Kingdom they are as one family under the loving Fatherhood of God; as members of Christ's mystical body they are incorporated not only with Him, their common Head, but with one another, and this not merely by visible social bonds and external co-operation, but by the invisible bonds of mutual love and sympathy, and by effective co-operation in the inner life of grace. Each is in some degree the beneficiary of the spiritual activities of the others, of their prayers and good works, their merits and satisfactions; nor is this degree to be wholly measured by those indirect ways in which the law of solidarity works out in other cases, nor by the conscious and explicit altruistic intentions of individual agents. It is wider than this, and extends to the bounds of the mysterious. Now, as between the living, no Christian can deny the reality of this far-reaching spiritual communion; and since death, for those who die in faith and grace, does not sever the bonds of this communion, why should it interrupt its efficacy in the case of the dead, and shut them out from benefits of which they are capable and may be in need? Of very few can it be hoped that they have attained perfect holiness at death; and none but the perfectly holy are admitted to the vision of God. Of few, on the other hand, will they at least who love them admit the despairing thought that they are beyond the pale of grace and mercy, and condemned to eternal separation from God and from all who hope to be with God. On this ground alone it has been truly said that purgatory is a postulate of the Christian reason; and, granting the existence of the purgatorial state, it is equally a postulate of the Christian reason in the communion of saints, or, in other words, be helped by the prayers of their brethren on earth and in heaven. Christ is King in purgatory as well as in heaven and on earth, and He cannot be deaf to our prayers for our loved ones in that part of His Kingdom, whom he also loves while He chastises them. For our own consolation as well as for theirs we want to believe in this living intercourse of charity with our dead. We would believe it without explicit warrant of Revelation, on the strength of what is otherwise revealed and in obedience to the promptings of reason and natural affection. Indeed, it is largely for this reason that Protestants in growing numbers are giving up today the joy-killing doctrine of the Reformers, and reviving Catholic teaching and practice. As we shall presently see, there is no clear and explicit warrant for prayers for the dead in the Scriptures recognized by Protestants as canonical, while they do not admit the Divine authority of extra-Scriptural traditions. Catholics are in a better position.A. Arguments from Scripture
Omitting some passages in the Old Testament which are sometimes invoked, but which are too vague and uncertain in their reference to be urged in proof (v.g. Tobias, iv, 18; Ecclus., vii, 37; etc.), it is enough to notice here the classical passage in II Machabees, xii, 40-46. When Judas and his men came to take away for burial the bodies of their brethren who had fallen in the battle against Gorgias, "they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had ben committed might be forgotten...And making a gathering, he [Judas] sent twelve [al. two] drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead), and because he considered that they who had fallen asleep in godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." For Catholics who accept this book as canonical, this passage leaves nothing to be desired. The inspired author expressly approves Judas's action in this particular case, and recommends in general terms the practice of prayers for the dead. There is no contradiction in the particular case between the conviction that a sin had been committed, calling down the penalty of death, and the hope that the sinners had nevertheless died in godliness -- an opportunity for penance had intervened.
But even for those who deny the inspired authority of this book, unequivocal evidence is here furnished of the faith and practice of the Jewish Church in the second century B.C. -- that is to say, of the orthodox Church, for the sect of the Sadducees denied the resurrection (and, by implication at least, the general doctrine of immortality), and it would seem from the argument of which the author introduces in his narrative that he had Sadducean adversaries in mind. The act of Judas and his men in praying for their deceased comrades is represented as if it were a matter of course; nor is there anything to suggest that the procuring of sacrifices for the dead was a novel or exceptional thing; from which it is fair to conclude that the practice -- both private and liturgical -- goes back beyond the time of Judas, but how far we cannot say. It is reasonable also to assume, in the absence of positive proof to the contrary, that this practice was maintained in later times, and that Christ and the Apostles were familiar with it; and whatever other evidence is available from Talmudic and other sources strongly confirms this assumption, if it does not absolutely prove it as a fact (see, v.g., Luckock, "After Death", v, pp. 50 sq.). This is worth noting because it helps us to understand the true significance of Christ's silence on the subject -- if it be held on the incomplete evidence of the Gospels that He was indeed altogether silent -- and justifies us in regarding the Christian practice as an inheritance from orthodox Judaism.
We have said that there is no clear and explicit Scriptural text in favour of prayers for the dead, except the above text of II Machabees. Yet there are one or two sayings of Christ recorded by the Evangelists, which are most naturally interpreted as containing an implicit reference to a purgatorial state after death; and in St. Paul's Epistles a passage of similar import occurs, and one or two other passages that bear directly on the question of prayers for the dead. When Christ promises forgiveness for all sins that a man may commit except the sin against the Holy Ghost, which "shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world nor in the world to come" (Matt., xii, 31-32), is the concluding phrase nothing more than a periphrastic equivalent for "never"? Or, if Christ meant to emphasize the distinction of worlds, is "the world to come" to be understood, not of the life after death, but of the Messianic age on earth as imagined and expected by the Jews? Both interpretations have been proposed; but the second is far-fetched and decidedly improbable (cf. Mark, iii, 29); while the first, though admissible, is less obvious and less natural than that which allows the implied question at least to remain: May sins be forgiven in the world to come? Christ's hearers believed in this possibility, and, had He Himself wished to deny it, He would hardly have used a form of expression which they would naturally take to be a tacit admission of their belief. Precisely the same argument applies to the words of Christ regarding the debtor who is cast into prison, from which he shall not go out till he has paid the last farthing (Luke, xii, 59).
Passing over the well-known passage, I Cor., iii, 14 sq., on which an argument for purgatory may be based, attention may be called to another curious text in the same Epistle (xv, 29), where St. Paul argues thus in favour of the resurrection: "Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? Why are they then baptized form them?" Even assuming that the practice here referred to was superstitious, and that St. Paul merely uses it as the basis of an argumentum ad hominem, the passage at least furnishes historical evidence of the prevalence at the time of belief in the efficacy of works for the dead; and the Apostle's reserve in not reprobating this particular practice is more readily intelligible if we suppose him to have recognized the truth of the principle of which it was merely an abuse. But it is probable that the practice in question was something in itself legitimate, and to which the Apostle gives his tacit approbation. In his Second Epistle to Timothy (i, 16-18; iv, 19) St. Paul speaks of Onesiphorus in a way that seems obviously to imply that the latter was already dead: "The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus" -- as to a family in need of consolation. Then, after mention of loyal services rendered by him to the imprisoned Apostle at Rome, comes the prayer for Onesiphorus himself, "The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day" (the day of judgment); finally, in the salutation, "the household of Onesiphorus" is mentioned once more, without mention of the man himself. The question is, what had become of him? Was he dead, as one would naturally infer from what St. Paul writes? Or had he for any other cause become separated permanently from his family, so that prayer for them should take account of present needs while prayers for him looked forward to the day of judgment? Or could it be that he was still at Rome when the Apostle wrote, or gone elsewhere for a prolonged absence from home? The first is by far the easiest and most natural hypothesis; and if it be admitted, we have here an instance of prayer by the Apostle for the soul of a deceased benefactor.
- Praying For The Dead
I hope that each of you will take the time to follow the links and read the rest of these articles.
In Christ,
Joe
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Joe,
Do you agree that when Jesus Christ comes, THAT will be the time that people will be brought to heaven? If you don't, then obviously you think that the good people are already there? If you don't believe my first point, why? It says so in the Bible.
that already takes out the theory of purgatory.
David
Posted by: David at October 8, 2005 8:46 PMNo David...I don't agree. There are saints in heaven right now. The Bible tells us, and the Church teaches, that there are those who are in heaven with the Lord.
In Christ,
Joe
Joe,
You just dont get it!
Do you want me to tell you the many texts in the bible?
Okay, I will.
Psalms 115:17 says that the dead praise not the Lord in Death? What do you make of that Joe. Are you going to disregard that? If so, here is another one.
John 14: 2,3 "..I go and prepare a place for you..that where I am, there ye may be also."
The place isn't prepared. Jesus went to prepare it for us so that when he comes back he can take us.
Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindered of the earth shall wail because of him"
This says that it won't be some mystery when we go to heaven. Every eye will see Christ come and take the good into heaven.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven witha shout, with thevoice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and dead in Christ shall rise first"
THEY AREN'T IN HEAVEN AND AREN'T RISEN YET. Why would Christ have to come again if they were already in heaven.
So Joe, Now do you agree???
Be careful.
David
Posted by: David at October 9, 2005 12:51 AMDavid,
No, I still do not agree with you nor does the Catholic Church nor do most Protestant denominations. Once again, if you had taken the time to read all of our dialogue under the "Mary Worship" article you would know what my answer to your argument is. Because I care for you as a brother in Christ I will take the time to irradiate you once again under this post.
Let us first look at the Scripture passages you have quoted:
1. Psalms 115:7 - As I stated before this is not a contradicting verse since the Psalms were written before Christ's death and resurrection. No one was in heaven at that time since Christ sacrifice had not yet occurred.
2. John 14:2-3 - Of course Jesus would speak in terms of "preparing" a place for His followers. The necessary preparation was His Self-Sacrifice on the Cross. Again...this statement is made prior to Christ's saving sacrifice. Also, it should be noted that Christ does not say that the "preparation" will not be completed until His Second Coming...here you are simply taking text out of context.
3. Revelation 1:7 - there is an important distinction being made here between our immediate death and the Last Day. Notice that it refers to "every eye" seeing Him, this statement indicates the presence of the human body. When we die our soul leaves our body...this is a fact. It is only on the Last Day when all who have died will be reunited with their bodies does this verse apply. It does not, however, prove that after death no one goes to heaven, nor does it attempt to say that. Again, you are taking text out of context.
4. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 - This verse is also speaking of the Last Day when body and soul will be reunited. It does not prove that the souls of the faithful have not gone to heaven yet.
Now here is where Scripture clearly contradicts your opinion on this matter:
1. Luke 23:42-43
And he said, "Jesus remember me when you come in your kingly power." And He said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."It doesn't get much clearer than this. Jesus is telling the Good Thief that today he will be with Him in heaven.
2. 2 Corinthians 5:8
We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Here St. Paul directly links death and life with Christ after death.
3. Philippians 1:19-23
Yes, and I shall rejoice. For I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
Here St. Paul clearly states that to die means union with Christ, i.e. heaven (for that is ultimately what heaven is...union with Christ).
These are just a few of the many examples in Sacred Scripture that are consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church and most Protestant denominations on what happens after we die. The other argument could be made from the historical perspective. Since Christ left this earth, Christians have believed in life after death, that after one dies they are judged and receive either eternal reward (even if this comes only after purgatory) or eternal loss. Christians have also maintained that a Final Judgment will occur on the Last Day after Christ's Second Coming, but this does not prohibit all souls from experiencing either eternal reward or eternal loss now.
So where are you getting this notion that we all remain asleep until then? It obviously isn't from Scripture, unless of course you take a couple verses out of context, and it isn't from the faith as it has been passed down through the ages.
I think you are the one who needs to be careful here...it sound like you are creating a Christian belief system based on your own ideas rather than that of Scripture or the Church.
In Christ,
Joe
Joe,
1 Thessalonians 4:16
How does this text not prove the souls are not in heaven yet? If they were in heaven already, Jesus would not have to come and raise them, am I correct? Just think that through.
As for the thief on the cross, okay, so Jesus said he's in heaven. So, I still don't see how this proves all the people are in heaven. If Jesus wants him in heaven, He can do it, enough said.
I'm not sure how you think that the thief on the cross going to heaven means all of the good are in heaven. King David, again, do you not agree he was good? Well it says in Acts 2:29, 34 "David is both dead and buried...." It also tells us he is NOT in heaven in verse 34.
I thought you said that the good are already in heaven...hm...doesn't sound like it.
You said "Here St. Paul clearly states that to die means union with Christ, i.e. heaven (for that is ultimately what heaven is...union with Christ)."
Yes, to die means union with Christ. Did he say that to die means that you are immediately sent to heaven. NO. Yes, you are right, Heaven is union with Christ, but if someone dies, they can sleep until Christ comes again and brings them to heaven.
You said "So where are you getting this notion that we all remain asleep until then? It obviously isn't from Scripture, unless of course you take a couple verses out of context, and it isn't from the faith as it has been passed down through the ages."
You want me to answer how I know that we remain asleep if we die in Christ? Well this may not directly connect, but hear me out, I'll make it worth hearing.
In John 14: 1-3 it says "let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF THAT WHERE I AM THERE YE MAY BE ALSO" THE REASON HE'S COMING BACK IS TO RECEIVE US INTO HEAVEN. WE AREN'T THERE YET!!!!
As for the dead not being there until Christ comes, it says, since you don't believe 1 Thess. 4:16 in my interpretation, Ill get one from the Catholic bible I read "Forthe Lord himself will come down from heaven witha mighty shout and with the soul-stirring cry of the archangel and the great the great trumpet call of God. And the ebelieve who are dead will be the first to rise to meet the Lord"
Think about it! If the Lord has to COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN to meet those good people who have died, then how can they be in heaven??
And oh yeah, I did read the Mary worship stuff...Totally pointless.
David
Posted by: David at October 9, 2005 4:53 PMDavid,
In reference to 1 Thessalonians 4:16, St. Paul is clearly speaking of the bodily resurrection at the Second Coming. This truth is illustrated by the fact that he uses the word rise which indicates a physical, substantial event. This does not mean that the soul, a nonmaterial, isn't taken up to heaven upon one's death.
So the Good Thief gets to go to heaven because he has a conversion on his cross, but all the other good people don't...this is funny. Do you not see how this is a little illogical, unjust, and contradicting???
In Acts 2:29-26, St. Peter is speaking about the superiority of Christ's Kingship to that of David. Here, like before, we have to consider the words used...ascend like rise indicates the presence of a body. Jesus ascended bodily into heaven whereas David did not. St. Peter does not say that David isn't in heaven, rather that he did not ascend into heaven like Jesus. Once again, you are taking text out of context.
You state:
Yes, to die means union with Christ. Did he say that to die means that you are immediately sent to heaven. NO. Yes, you are right, Heaven is union with Christ, but if someone dies, they can sleep until Christ comes again and brings them to heaven.
Full union with Christ is heaven....period. In Philippians 1:23, St. Paul couldn't get much clearer:
My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
This verse alone is the foundation destroyer of your entire theory on this matter.
So here is the "rock-solid" proof that the true Christian understanding of life after death is wrong, a proof that will show that for over 2000 years Christianity has been wrong about souls of the just going to heaven...with no further delay here it is:
In John 14: 1-3 it says "let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF THAT WHERE I AM THERE YE MAY BE ALSO" THE REASON HE'S COMING BACK IS TO RECEIVE US INTO HEAVEN. WE AREN'T THERE YET!!!!
So that's it...that's the proof??? Let me quote again what I said above in reference to this passage:
John 14:2-3 - Of course Jesus would speak in terms of "preparing" a place for His followers. The necessary preparation was His Self-Sacrifice on the Cross. Again...this statement is made prior to Christ's saving sacrifice. Also, it should be noted that Christ does not say that the "preparation" will not be completed until His Second Coming...here you are simply taking text out of context.
An interesting side note here is that Jesus uses the word receive here instead of rise. Receive is the proper term here for Christ does receive our souls when we die, just as He is there when we enter this world in our mothers' wombs. Receive, unlike rise or ascend does not imply a physical event.
In Christ,
Joe
Dear David:
I going to Copy and past my Thoughts that have in the Mary worship about the dead here also.
SDAs deny that believers on death go to heaven. You say that believers go to soul sleep in the grave until Christ's return. This is a belief that they share with the Jehovahs Witnesses.
Since (in thier view) the soul cannot exist apart from the body, man must rest in the tomb until the resurrection.
This teaching is refuted by the following verses:
Luke 16:19-31 the story of the rich man and Lazarus.
Philippians 1:23 "I am in a straight between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better."
Hebrews 12:1 "We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses" (The faithful departed listed in chapter 11 of Hebrews)
Revelation 6:9,10 "I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God ... they cried with a loud voice"
Ezekiel 32:21 "The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell..."
Ezekiel 32:30,31 "The Zidonians which are gone down with the slain ... Pharaoh shall see them and shall be comforted, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword."
See also 1 John 5:11-13; John 11:25,26; 2 Timothy 1:10.
The dead people are Judge and then either go to heaven or hell. Again Cathoics dont worship Mary if that was the Cast (Joe correct me if i wrong) then i will totaly disagree. But then again asking some one to pray for us is no big deal, as long as they dont worship her or anything.
There's a difference between Worship and Prayer. Asking you to Pray for me is not taking God's Place, either is asking all the Saints in Heaven to Pray for Us.
Also you must abserve that not everybody will go to Heaven. you must also abserve that the Bodies are dead not the SOUL. For a person can not be dead and have a SOUL inside of the body, then explain why they dead if they have a soul.
Paul says, “It’s better to depart and be with Christ,” and Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in Paradise.” When we a leave, when we depart from this earth, I know we are not given a new body right away, but are we in heaven? the answer is yes in that passage and many more DAVID. You must read carefully and you find what you looking for.
At death, the human spirit leaves the body (Ec. 12:7) and goes either to heaven or hell (Luke 16:22ff). As demonstrated by the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:22ff.)Ñand affirmed by Christ when he tells the thief he will be with him in paradise "today" (Luke 23:43)Ñthere is immediate conscious existence after death, both in heaven and hell (2 Cor. 5:8; Rev. 6:9-11; Phil. 1:23).
There is no "soul sleep" or period of unawareness preceding heaven. Some Old Testament passages do not reflect the fullness of New Testament revelation concerning immediate consciousness upon death. "Fallen asleep" in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 and similar passages is a euphemism for death, describing the outward appearance as seen from this side, not the other. The spiritÕs departure from the body ends our existence on earth. This "sleep" refers to the outward inanimate appearance of the body that is buried in the earth. The physical part of us "sleeps" until the resurrection, while the spiritual part of us relocates to a conscious existence in heaven (Dan. 12:2-3; 2 Cor. 5:8; Rev. 6:9-11). Every reference in Revelation to human beings talking and worshipping in heaven prior to the resurrection (Rev. 20) refutes the notion of soul sleep.
David we do not sleep when we died, out bodies do, not our souls. Thats what Paul is talking about that the "DEAD WILL RISE UP FIRST", at the point the all the saints in heaven (SOULS) will reunite with there bodies on earth. Then they will get there New Bodies.
God bless
Ramon
Ramon,
Don't worry about that Mary Worship thing here, just comment about that in the appropriate place, like...in the Mary Worship topic? :)
Oh, and all I have to say to you right now is that In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it tells us that the dead will rise first..WHEN CHRIST COMES BACK TO EARTH. As I said, if Christ has to DESCEND FROM HEAVEN to retreive the dead, the dead aren't there yet!
David
Dear david:
Haha, he was not talking about the dead (who you say have souls it them, Yea Right) will rise up. There are people in heaven, there souls will reunite with there body here on earth. Then after that they will recieve their new bodies. David why are you not believing what the BIBLE saids. Before The second coming of christ there are a alot of Verses talking about the dead in christ who is now in heaven.
You taking In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it tells us that the dead will rise first..WHEN CHRIST COMES BACK TO EARTH, out of text.
The Bible tells us that there is not only life after death, but eternal life so glorious that “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him” (1Corinthians 2:9). Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, came to the earth to give us this gift of eternal life. “He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed” (Isaiah 53:5).
A choice must be made by each person in this life to determine where he or she will be going for eternity. The Bible says that it is appointed for us to die only once, and after that will come judgment (Hebrews 9:27). Those who have been made righteous will go into eternal life in heaven, but unbelievers will be sent to eternal punishment, or hell (Matthew 25:46). DAVID OPEN YOUR EYES!
When the Bible says a person is “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1Cor 15:6), it does not mean literal “sleep”. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be sleeping. The Bible tells us that the instant you die, you are taken to heaven or Hell based on whether you had received Christ as your Savior or not. For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2Cor 5:6-8; Phil 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in Hell (Luke 16:22-23). The concept of “soul sleep” is not a Biblical doctrine. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Heb 9:27). Until the resurrection, though, there is currently a temporary heaven “Paradise” (Luke 23:43; 2Cor 12:4) and Hell “Hades” (Rev 1:18; 20:13-14). And since you say the OLD testement saids so, thats was before Christ ever step foot on earth, died for our sins and resurrected the third day and raise back to heaven.In a sense, a person’s body is “sleeping” while their soul is in Paradise or Hades. You saying that Both Bodies and soul are sleeping? have you read the bible CAREFULLY?
I been there i once believe what you believe, but the BIBLE told me something else. WHY ARE YOU GOING AGAINST THE BIBLE DAVID?
John 11:25-27
“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”
"sleeping" was the term used in the bible as the look of the outside, they looked as if there were alsleep. But their souls are up in heaven, waiting for their new and wonderfull bodies.
1 Thes 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
If you believe Jesus rose from the dead, then you should you know that those have died in Christ are with Him also.
Eccl 9:5
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Does it say anything about your soul here? No, it doesn't. When the flesh dies what happens to the soul? We just covered it. Your soul and spirit return to He who gave it. Now, if there is no spirit or soul in that dead carcass, what can it know? Nothing! There isn't a thing there for it to know. The flesh is done with reaping any more rewards of it's labor.
When the flesh dies your done with it. It is not coming back. Whether your buried or cremated it doesn't matter. Your soul returns to God, saint or sinner. As we have studied you will be on one side or the other of the gulf in heaven. For those that believe on Jesus we are much better off than those who don't. The scripture "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living" has a greater meaning than most would think.Jesus clearly teaches that after believers die, they go to be with him. DONT GO AGAISNT THE BIBLE.
God bless
Ramon
Posted by: Ramon at October 12, 2005 4:06 PM
Ramon,
So wait, you're Protestant?
Posted by: David at October 13, 2005 1:37 AMDear David:
Im a Pentcostal, I use to believe what you believe, but the NT told me otherwise. David why you go against the BIBLE? CHRISTIANS DONT SLEEP WHEN WE DIED.
And David what are you?
God Bless
Ramon
Ramon,
I want to take a break from arguing. It seems like you guys, instead of really talking about the Bible, just want to beat me up because you know I'm the only one defending my side....sigh...
Oh, I'm Christian. What religion did you used to be?
David
Posted by: David at October 13, 2005 10:27 PMOh yeah, one more thing,
I'm not sure how you interpret it, and I dont want any cold blooded arguments, but here it goes.
1 Corinthians 15:51 says "Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed"
I see that to mean that when Jesus arrives, we won't all be dead, but those he brings to heaven with be changed, and without corruption. In verse 53 it says "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality"
Just thought I'd mention it.
David
Posted by: David at October 13, 2005 10:34 PMDavid,
Since you don't want cold blooded arguments, I have a question for you:
In one of my (much) earlier posts I cited the teachings of the early fathers and the archeological evidence from the Roman catacombs that shows that the Church, from the earliest days, believed in the communion of saints; that, when we die, our physical body 'sleeps' and our immortal soul lives on.
I have seen no evidence that anyone in the early Church believed otherwise - if you know of such evidence I would very much like to see it.
If I am correct then it seems that you must believe that the overwhelming majority of Christians are wrong today and that the Church has been wrong since around 100 AD. Is this what you believe?
Posted by: fidens at October 14, 2005 7:57 AMDear David:
I always was a pentecostal, and Pentecostal are Christians. At one point i use to believe that the dead are asleep, but now i know that they not, they (all who believe in christ) are in Heaven. Those who did not accept Jesus Christ as they Lord and Savior and have not follow the way of christ are now in hell. Everyone must make the choice in what place they want to go. And that choice must be made now when we here on EARTH. All this can be found in the NT.
Heaven is eternal. The bodies we have now are not. Flesh and blood just does not hold up very well... what would we look like after ten thousand years? Have you seen pictures of King Tut's mummy? And he's a young three thousand years old.
I don't think that flesh and blood would do all that well in heaven. But not to worry. Paul wrote the following concerning this:
"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:50-52).When we enter into heaven, it will be with imperishable or incorruptible bodies. No longer flesh and blood, these bodies will be indestructible. Ten thousand years will have no effect on them at all.
When Jesus Christ arrives (the second coming)The souls of dead who are now in heaven will reunite with their bodies on earth and then they will recieve their new bodies.,and then that we here on earth who Follow christ and are believers of Christ will be taken up with Christ and our new bodies will be given. (The Rapture).
God bless
Ramon
Posted by: Ramon at October 15, 2005 1:03 AM
Fidens said: "I have seen no evidence that anyone in the early Church believed otherwise - if you know of such evidence I would very much like to see it.If I am correct then it seems that you must believe that the overwhelming majority of Christians are wrong today and that the Church has been wrong since around 100 AD. Is this what you believe?"
Well, yes, I guess I do believe that a bunch of religions have it wrong. If I didn't think that, then wouldn't I BE one of those religions right now?
I have a question first though..Do Catholics think of David (you know, writer of Psalms) as a Saint?
Well anyway. In Acts 2:29 it says "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day"
Then verse 34 says "For David has not ascended into the Heavens, but he saith himself, The LORD saith unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand"
Okay, David isn't in heaven, but he was predicting that Jesus would sit at the right hand of God.
David was good, so if he isn't in heaven. This shows that the good aren't in heaven yet! It isn't a selective process of who goes at a certain time. David found favor with God, so if you think the good are in heaven, why wouldn't he be unless no one is there yet?
David
Posted by: David at October 15, 2005 8:23 PMDavid,
You keep using Acts 2:29-36 as some kind of proof that those who are good don't go to heaven upon death...we already covered this above...but I will requote it again just so that we are clear on this:
In Acts 2:29-36, St. Peter is speaking about the superiority of Christ's Kingship to that of David. Here, like before, we have to consider the words used...ascend like rise indicates the presence of a body. Jesus ascended bodily into heaven whereas David did not. St. Peter does not say that David isn't in heaven, rather that he did not ascend into heaven like Jesus. Once again, you are taking text out of context.
In Christ,
Joe Posted by: Joe at October 15, 2005 9:51 PM
Any Catholic,
Who gave the Catholic church the authority to name people saints?
I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't.
David
Posted by: David at October 30, 2005 1:15 AMdear David:
Im not a cathoic but in the NT we are told that everybody who believes in christ and follow him (ETC) are called saints. Everybody including you and those who pass on are called saints. However this does not mean that we on earth who are called saints live a sin free life. It just mean we have turn away from the world evil ways to follow christ. Of course those in heaven live without sin.
God Bless
Ramon
David,
In Matthew 16:19 Christ gives Peter, in his role as the head of Christ's Church on earth, the authority to make binding decisions such as canonising saints. Hence, such decrees can only be made by the successors of Peter.
Take the quiz!
http://www.memorare.com/apol/rucatchurch.html
Posted by: Angus at November 7, 2005 3:13 AMDavid,
First off I want to say, after reading several of these posts,I do not want to attack you. I am a born again Christian, like yourself, and can appreciate your thirst for knowledge. I often am confused by scripture, but I often pray that the Lord will enlighten me and convict me of the "true" meaning! Where does confusion come from??? The Master of Confusion - Satan.
Ok, with that said, I will speak my peace.
First - The Lord "technically" does not return to the physical earth. Everyone, read your scripture again! He descends among the clouds, and all, the dead in Christ and the living who are in Christ will "rise up" to MEET HIM IN THE CLOUDS !!! This is NOT the SECOND COMING of Christ, this IS however the rapture. If you dont' believe me, then what??? After the tribulation and final judgement is the THIRD coming of Christ ??? I think not!
Second - Others have directed David to 2Cor.12:4
but not to 2Cor.12:1-4 where Paul tells of a man
"...whether in the body,I do not know,or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows; and such a one was caught up to the THIRD heaven."
I capitalized third to emphasize it.
OH BOY OH BOY...could we get in to a debate about this and what exactly the "third" heaven means. BUT WHY ???
David, I have no idea how long you have been a Christian. I spoke of conviction earlier. What is the Holy Spirit convicting you of ??? Pray on it !!
My hope is that posts will be made here with a loving heart. You are driven to seek the truth, and may Christ our Lord and Savior bless you for that!
Someday we will all meet in heaven, and all truth will be revealed, and then we will be too busy GLORIFYING OUR GOD to be concerned about who was right or wrong on this site.
God Bless You All !!!
Rich
Posted by: Rich at December 16, 2005 10:37 AMRamon,
Hi, I haven't been on this site in a while. :)
I just want to hear your view on the state of the view. Do you believe they sleep? or that they live with Jesus in heaven?
John 11:11 - "These things said he (Jesus): and after that he said to them. "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth: but I go that I may awake him out of sleep." (i.e. Lazarus was DEAD) Death = sleep
Yes, this is before Jesus died on the cross, but Jesus also talks about AFTER.
John 14:2,3 - "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also"
In other words the dead DON'T go to heaven right when they die. They go when Jesus returns and receives them. If they were already in heaven, then what reason would Jesus have to come again??
1 Corinth. 15:51 - "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all SLEEP, but we shall all be changed."
We won't all die, but the mortal will put on immortality, the corruptible incorruption. Again, sleep = death.
1 Thess. 4:14,16 - "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."...."For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first"
This is talking about the second coming of Christ. Jesus is DESCENDING FROM HEAVEN to raise the dead, meaning that they aren't there yet.
Just thought I'd "enlighten" you. :)
Posted by: David at December 30, 2005 9:58 PMCatholics,
The teaching of purgatory in the Roman Catholic Church seems to be relatively harmless, even though I'm far from convinced of it. Life after death and final judgement are God's business, and I don't believe anyone but Him has complete understanding of final judgement. Even though most non Catholics despise the teaching of purgatory, on the Protestant side there are numerous teachings on the afterlife that are not spelled-out in the Bible.
I think the concept of purgatory is dangerous in the way it opens-up other spiritual possibilites for many members of the RCC. I know of many Catholics who believe that many Christian souls haunt the places of their life on earth. However, the movie "Ghost" - staring Demi Moore and Patrick Swayze - is thought to be a Christian movie by many Catholics. In my experience, this, among many other things, demonstrates the level of ignorance of many Catholics regarding salvation and Christianity in general.
They believe in ghost sitings, haunted houses, etc.; all being associated with purgatory in that those souls aren't ready to enter heaven and have unfinished business here on earth.
What are your opinions? Where is purgatory? What does the RCC teach about non hell-bound souls and their presence here on earth? Do you take issue with those who believe their father/uncle/mother haunts their home due to unfinished business on earth?
Michael O.
Posted by: Michael O. at March 4, 2007 3:31 AMMichael O,
The foundational passage for purgatory is found in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. The key ideas being that someone could pass through fire, suffer loss because of deficient works, and yet still be saved.
Although I liked the movie "Ghost" with Swayze, Moore, and Goldberg, the idea of a soul in purgatory haunting a house has no place in Catholic thinking. The souls in purgatory, just like the souls on earth, and the souls in heaven have no "spooky" powers.
Some have speculated legitimately about the possibility of angels and/or demons intervening tangibly in human affairs. The Angel of Death at Passover and the demonic possessions described in the New Testament set biblical prcedent.
Catholics, like the ones who have never heard that using contraception is sinful, who believe in ghosts and haunting have not received the proper education that they deserve.
Posted by: Burnt Marshwiggle at March 4, 2007 11:07 AMBurnt,
Okay, I better understand the RCC's concept of purgatory - thanks.
Other Christians may attack the concept, but everyone should ask him/herself what s/he believes happens to souls upon death. What is the state of the soul between death and the world's final judgement? These are questions that the RCC has tried to answer (albeit with too much confidence), and it must be given credit for that -- most Protestants just complain about the concept of purgatory not being Biblical and never specifically answer the question themselves.
The belief that angels and demons are at work on earth is fundamental to the Christian faith, in my opinion. Too many U.S. Christians are losing that belief, as science becomes our leading light. Martin Luther believed that the devil tempted him constantly, to the point that he threw a bottle of ink at him during Luther's time hiding away in a German castle.
For those of us who fall into sin all too often, we must remember that the spirit world is moving-on around us. Everyone is watching and a part of the big game for your soul.
A scary concept, until you're comforted by Christ's mighty love, protection, and your salvation through Him.
Michael
Posted by: Michael O. at March 5, 2007 12:43 PMMichael O wrote: What is the state of the soul between death and the world's final judgement? These are questions that the RCC has tried to answer (albeit with too much confidence)
Now you've got me curious. What specifically has the Roman Catholic Church said with too much confidence about Purgatory?
As far as I know, not much has been officially (i.e. confidently) said beyond the following: someone could pass through fire, suffer loss because of deficient works, still be saved, and receive benefit from our prayers (1 Cor 3:10-15). The rest is acknowledged as speculation.
I find it hard to see how one could construe making speculations as speaking with too much confidence or do you take issue with the interpretation of 1 Cor 3:10-15 that I presented? What is your interpretation of those verses?
Posted by: Burnt Marshwiggle at March 5, 2007 10:28 PMBurnt,
The overconfidence doesn't lay in I Cor. 3 10-15, rather it is displayed in the teaching of purgatory as a place where Christians on earth have a role. Johaness Tensal was a fund-raiser in pre-Reformation Europe who became famous for his gift to exploint the ignorance of the poor masses. For the right price, a family could take a family member's soul out of purgatory and into heaven. I believe I've read in this blog that this practice can happen today under the eyes of the RCC.
In regard to the verse itself, I think Paul is talking about Judgement and our being stripped of all but what was done for the Lord and His Kingdom. Paul uses the word fire because he refers to Jesus as the Foundation, and only a foundation in Christ would survive a fire.
I don't think Paul was trying to secretly convey information he had regarding the 1000s of years we must suffer in a place called "purgatory" upon our death (or until a wealthy relative in Rome pays our way out).
Michael O.
Posted by: Michael O. at March 6, 2007 2:33 PMMichael O wrote:
In regard to the verse itself, I think Paul is talking about Judgement and our being stripped of all but what was done for the Lord and His Kingdom
That sounds like a pretty good description of what has been officially defined by the Roman Catholic Church concerning purgatory.
While Pope John Paul II apologized repeatedly for numerous misdeeds of the Roman Catholic Church, I see no evidence that any of these misdemeanors actually "crept into" official Church teaching - a miracle in itself. That an organization plagued by sinners such as myself could behave so badly and yet retain true teaching practically defies natural explanation.
While individual members may have been overconfident about their notions of purgatory to the point of selling forgiveness, official and definitive Church teaching displays no such overconfidence and has said very little on the topic. As far as I know, it only says what you have already said concerning 1 Cor 3:10-15 and adds that souls passing through the cleansing fire may benefit from our prayers.
Can you cite some specific items from the Second Vatican Council or the Catechism of the Catholic Church that you find "overconfident" in its teaching on Purgatory? I would rather judge the Catholic Church based on its teaching and the conduct of those who obey its teaching rather than the conduct of those like myself who fall woefully short of obeying said teachings.
Posted by: Burnt Marshwiggle at March 7, 2007 7:58 AMim don and 12 years old an i just have some questions and i hope i don't interrupt anyone conversation
1. is there still indulgences cuz i read about em in my history book
2. doesn't God jus judge u on what u do when your alive? so how can praying for a dead person helpful?
3. also, isn't it not fair if two living people both died, and lets say they acted the same way, but one had less friends to pray for them then the other. is it fair to make the one who got more prayers to go to heaven jus cuz they knew more people?
4. is purgatory good or bad?
thank you every1
Posted by: Donny at June 8, 2007 11:45 PMHello Donny,
1. Your history book probably speaks of the terrible practice of selling God's free gift of forgiveness. This is not what indulgences should be but unfortunately, this is what happened in the past. These abuses have been fixed and although we still have indulgences, it is much different than what you read about in this history books.
2. In the first letter of Paul to the Corinthians chapter 3 verses 10 to 15, Saint Paul answers your excellent question. Saint Paul tells us that some people will have works which do not stand the test of fire, that these people will suffer loss, and yet they will still be saved (we call this purgatory). We offer prayers for the dead to help the people who, after they die, suffer loss yet will still be saved.
3. Two things to keep in mind when we pray for the souls in purgatory. First, after the Day of judgement arrives, all souls in purgatory and in heaven will be raised to new life with new bodies and spend an eternity of happiness with God - so the soul in purgatory who has no one to pray for them is still doing very well. Second, having pepole pray for you after you die is less about "knowing more people" and more about having a loving relationship with more people. We can see that people who give and receive love in this life flourish. That this truth continues even after we die is makes purgatory at least as fair as the best this world has to offer.
4. Purgatory is both a place of suffering and joy. The suffering of purgatory is so intense that only the fires of hell are worse. What makes the suffering in purgatory bearable is the sure knowledge that one day it will end and that a life of eternal happiness and closeness with God and others awaits. This also makes purgatory a place of such great joy that only the joys of heaven are better.
Donny, I see you have lots of excellent questions. Because your questions are so good, I only have time to respond to a few. If you could choose your top three questions, I will try to give you answers which are as good as your question.
Posted by: Burnt Marshwiggle at June 10, 2007 11:29 AMo wow, thanks 4 answering im sorry if that took u long i was jus curious. ur probably good at grammar too
your answers very helpful and thank u again
Posted by: donny at June 23, 2007 1:03 AMDonny and Burnt
I'm not sure you could ever buy an indulgence. See former Evangelical and scholar Jimmy Akin's myth #7: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9411fea1sb2.asp
Also indulgences were for remission of temporal punishment NOT forgiveness of sin. see myth 3.
In Love
when we were one
Posted by: when we were one at June 25, 2007 10:51 AMWWWO,
I stand corrected, I will use the phrase the financial scandal around indulgences to refer to the abuses which easily crept in during Martin Luther's time.
Posted by: Burnt Marshwiggle at June 26, 2007 2:00 PMBurnt
All indulgences are is: you do a good work out of good intent and grace and you get a good blessing. Protestant churches sell indulgences every Sunday!
Anytime they need to fill the collection plate they happily quote ... Malachi 3:10 Bring the full tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house; and thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you an overflowing blessing.
The beauty of the Catholic church is that we also note that alms are not the only currency of blessings you can gain indulgences in our churches by praying, fasting and doing graceful work. Due to the huff that Luther put up, the church has shunned monetary indulgences only protestant churches give monetary indulgences anymore...they just call them blessings.
In Love
when we were one
Posted by: when we were one at June 27, 2007 9:50 AM
