Is The Catholic Church The Antichrist? Inquiring Minds Want To Know...

Protestants can be so base sometimes! If they would do their homework and study the Latin roots of our word "prayer" they would see that the one English word comes from two Latin words, "latria" and "dulia." Latria is prayer TO GOD only. Dulia is prayer to God through ANOTHER MEMBER OF THE CHURCH who is now in heaven, in other words a saint. Just as I ask you to pray for me to God, I can ask someone who is dead and in heaven to pray for me to God.

But what can you expect from people who read and memorize the King James Version of the Bible, which has over 700 translational errors. They need to get some lessons in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin and then read the originals and see what they are missing from an English version correctly translated from these parent languages--the NAB or RSV.

Joe,

Really? Many Protestants believe this?
Anyways at my church we are not taught that the antichrist is the Roman Catholic Church or the pope. But, if someone challenges you with that point, tell them to prove it via Scripture. ;)

God Bless

SandT,

Yeah, many believe this...it's pretty amazing. A simple search on Google of the word "antichrist" and the word "Catholic" produces over 200,000 results. Of course, I did not go to every site, but I did look at the first few pages of results. While a number of the results are sites that explain the proper understanding of the term, many are articles, speeches, etc. explaining how the Catholic Church is the antichrist.

I'm glad to hear that your church doesn't make this claim, just keep in mind that your church is simply one of the more than 20,000 Protestant churches (some researchers have shown this number to now be over 30,000). So it shouldn't be that surprising that other churches have a different interpretation than yours, since each of them have made themselves an authoritative interpreter ;-)

In Christ,
Joe

Joe,

"I'm glad to hear that your church doesn't make this claim, just keep in mind that your church is simply one of the more than 20,000 Protestant churches (some researchers have shown this number to now be over 30,000)."

I assume you are meaning sects of Protestantism. But could you please point the source of this number?

"So it shouldn't be that surprising that other churches have a different interpretation than yours, since each of them have made themselves an authoritative interpreter ;-)"

So how many of the 20,000-30,000 sects of Protestantism believes the RC church to be the antichrist?

I am just curious on both points.

God Bless

SandT,

Hang on there....how can you call fellow Protestant denominations sects? Many of them hold to "sola scriptura" just like you. Before I tell you which denominations (not sects) teach that the Catholic Church is the antichrist please tell me which denomination you belong to.

Secondly, there are many references available, both online and at your local library, that list the various denominations within Protestantism.

In Christ,
Joe

This number is based on an erroneous impression of other faiths. The statistic actually refers to the total number of Churches, religious faiths or "denominations"- I hate that word. Anyway, the correct number of Protestant Churches is around 2000-3000, with about 20 new ones being formed each week. In the 1890's, that number was around 200. That tells you something right there. Interestingly, while the number of Churches has risen statistically, the number of splits per week remain constant.

As for the number of Protestant Churches that actually believe that the Pope is antichrist, I'm not sure, although confessionally, the "original" Protestants, (Lutheranism, Reformed, etc). hold to it in principle. In addition, many fundamentalists, and many fringe wacko groups believe it as well.

Joe,

"Secondly, there are many references available, both online and at your local library, that list the various denominations within Protestantism."

Please reference your sources. Tell me what website says that there that many denominations. Tell me what books mention 30,000 denomiations.
Then we can talk some more.

God Bless

John is absolutely correct in his point that the view that the "papacy is the anti-christ" remains a living tenet of faith in many - or most - protestant denominations.

Take, for example, this post by ELC Pastor McCain shortly after the death of John Paul II. Pastor McCain is not mean-spirited - he sincerely regretted the death of JPII - but Lutheran teaching is exactly what he describes, i.e., the papacy as an institution is the - or one of the - antichrists.

The other heirs of Luther may not be as explicit in their adoption of this theological position, but it is nonetheless in their DNA, so to speak. As a lecture by an "ecumenical Lutheran" on Luther asks - and I paraphrase - "if you don't think the Catholic church is the anti-christ, what's your reason for not belonging?"

SandT,

Gladly...there are several reference sources you can find this information in.

1) Dictionary of Christianity in America(1990)
2) World Christian Encyclopedia (1982)
3) World Census of Religious Activities, the U.N. Information Center, N.Y. 1989

Yet, the question must be asked...what would it matter if there were ONLY 2000 differenct denominations? It doesn't change the reality that each is it's own authoritative interpreter, nor the fact that there is extensive division among the ranks of Protestantism.

Again, what denomination do you belong to?

In Christ,
Joe

Joe,

This is a post from a fellow named Jeff in response to Jay on the issue of sola scriptura.

"Jay,

You act as if are no sects in the Catholic religion. I would advise that you read "David A. Barrett’s World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World A.D. 1900—2000 (ed. David A. Barrett; New York: Oxford University Press, 1982)."

You will learn that there not 25,000 Protestant denominations. You will also be surprised to find that there are denominations among Roman Catholics. Barrett breaks down Roman Catholicism in the following manner "1) Catholic Pentecostals (Roman Catholics involved in the organized Catholic Charismatic Renewal); (2) Christo-Pagans (Latin American Roman Catholics who combine folk-Catholicism with traditional Amerindian paganism); (3) Evangelical Catholics (Roman Catholics who also regard themselves as Evangelicals); and (4) Spiritist Catholics (Roman Catholics who are active in organized high or low spiritism, including syncretistic spirit-possession cults). And of course, we all know that this list can be supplemented by distinctions between moderate Roman Catholics (represented by almost all Roman Catholic scholars), Conservative Roman Catholics (represented by Scott Hahn and most Roman Catholic apologists), Traditionalist Roman Catholics (represented by apologist Gerry Matatics), and Sedevacantist Roman Catholics (those who believe the chair of Peter is currently vacant)."

You may ask what is so significant Barrett's encyclopedia? Because this is where most Catholic apologists get their stats from when breaking down the number of "denominations."

The whole time I have seen you post, you have questioned the number of denominations among Protestants? Explain the the RC denominations.
I suggest you read the article in Barrett's regarding denominations. You will be surprised.

Be blessed Jay
Posted by: Jeff at May 11, 2004 11:22 PM "

Joe, if you accept the figures from Barrett's encyclopedia, accept all of them. First off, if you read Barrett's Encyclopedia, you will find that he mentions appx. 22,000 denominations, 8000 of which he describes as Protestant, 223 that he describes as Catholic. He does not include JW's and Orthodox and Anglicans into the Protestant fold. Then he goes on to break it down into ecclessial "blocs." 21 blocs for the Protestants and 16 for ROMAN Catholicism.

As you see above, Barrett breaks down Roman Catholicism into denominations. Barrett considers sedevacantists as a denomination of Roman Catholicism. But just based on numbers alone, understand that Barrett mentions 8000 and not the 30000 denominations in the protestant family. More important, he mentions 223 "denominations" within the Roman Catholic family. He also mentions Catholics of a non-roman nature.
In the end, if you accept the 8000 denomination number in within the protestant family, then accept the 223 with Roman Catholicism. Either accept all of what Barrett's research entails or never mention that number again while ignoring the acknowledgement of RC denominations by Barrett.
Once again, according to the reference that you posted, Barrett mentions 8000+ protestant denominations broken down into 21 ecclessial blocs, and he also mentions 220+ Roman Catholic denominations broken down into 16 ecclessial blocs. Just some food for thought.

God Bless

SandT,

Thanks for completely avoiding my main questions once again...

1. What denomination do you belong to?

2. What does it matter if there are 20,000 or 8,000 denominations, it doesn't change the reality that each is its own authoritative interpreter?

Your attempts to side-step this blatantly obvious problem within the realm of Protestantism is almost comical to me. In terms of the 30,000+ denominations mentioned by Barnett, he has this to say in the World Christian Encyclopedia:

"Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations."

To assure clarity and to avoid ambiguity, we use the term "Roman Catholic" when referring to the church headed by the pope in Rome. We use similar terms (e.g. Evangelical Catholic, Anglo-Catholic) when referring to some other faith groups.

You also conveniently dodged the other two sources....one being the U.N. Any comment on that.

Lastly, what does any of this have to do with the context of your initial comment...you asked a question and several of us answered it. Numerous Protestant denominations still claim that the Catholic Church is the antichrist.

In Christ,
Joe

Joe,

"That puts the number at a minimal of 15,000. Yet there is a fundamental difference between the case you are attempting to make and the point I am making...being Catholic actually requires a certain set of beliefs, we hold to one creed...whether a member of the Charismatic Renewal or the Coptic Rite...both profess the same fundamental set of beliefs, the difference is in their liturgical rites."

That is fine if you believe that. My point is the following. You and many RC apologists insist on there being 25,000 denominations in Protestantism.
You gave me 3 sources. The source of the 25,000 denominations is Barrett's Encyclopedia. Mind you, that was an estimate for the amount of denominations there would be in 1985. This source shows that there are 8000+ denominations of Protestantism. When Barrett describes denominations, he shows that a church that has slight differences, lets say in the type of music they play. Then those will still be counted as denominations. But for all intents and purposes, let us assume that there are 8000 denominations within Protestantism. If we take Barrett's numbers, you will find that there are 220+ ROMAN CATHOLIC denominations. This is according to Barrett.
Now as for requirements on being a Roman Catholic that you mention. Fine, you can claim that...but nonetheless, Barrett breaks down Roman Catholicism into the following.
1. Catholic Pentecostals
2. Evangelical Catholics
3. Spirtist Catholics
4. Christo-Pagans

This is Barrett's breakdown of Roman Catholicism.
Now whether you agree with this or not is not relevant. The point is, it is comical to happily accept Barrett's numbers and classifications of denominations in regards to Protestantism, but yet reject the same when it comes to Roman Catholicism.

"These groups are not "Catholic" in the sense that you are attempting to use the word."

It is not how I used the word, but this how Barrett used the word. Reference Barrett's breakdown of Roman Catholicism above.

"Lastly, what does any of this have to do with the context of your initial comment...you asked a question and several of us answered it. Numerous Protestant denominations still claim that the Catholic Church is the antichrist."

You are the one who decided to mention 30,000 denominations. I had to correct you. I was glad to see that you mentioned Barrett's encyclopedia as a source. The other sources you mention, they both cite Barrett's. I didn't sidestep them. Anyway's, this lead us down to this discussion. That is how we got here. My point is, if you are going to use Barrett's research to prove that sola scriptura results in division, then accept Barrett's research and classification of Roman Catholicism. In both camps you do have differences according to Barrett. Either accept all of Barrett's work, or reject it all.

PS: Barrett never mentions 30,000 denominations in his research

God Bless

"You will learn that there not 25,000 Protestant denominations. You will also be surprised to find that there are denominations among Roman Catholics. Barrett breaks down Roman Catholicism in the following manner "1) Catholic Pentecostals (Roman Catholics involved in the organized Catholic Charismatic Renewal)".

Sorry bud, this doesn't wash. The Charismatics are full members of the Catholic Church, and as such, enjoy the full rights of all Catholics. It is a movement, not a "branch".

; (2) Christo-Pagans (Latin American Roman Catholics who combine folk-Catholicism with traditional Amerindian paganism);

Wrong again. Those who do this are guilty of the sin of religious indifferentism, meaning that their beliefs are no longer Catholic;

"(3) Evangelical Catholics (Roman Catholics who also regard themselves as Evangelicals)";

Really? I wasn't aware of this? If there are secret Evanglicals within the Catholic Church, I haven't been aware of it.

and (4) Spiritist Catholics (Roman Catholics who are active in organized high or low spiritism, including syncretistic spirit-possession cults).

See number 2. If any group tries to combine two or more spiritual beliefs, then you get an entirely different faith, with little resemblance to either. That is the basic definition of syncretism. So the definitions that the author used in his book are inaccurate.

Inquisitor,

You miss the point. The source of the 20,000 denominations number existing in the world today is none other than Barrett's encyclopedia. That is the number which many RC apologists use as proof that sola scriptura results in disunity. However, according the same source of this number...Barrett, there in fact 8000 denominations in Protestantism and 220 in Roman Catholicism. So if you do not like Barrett's breakdown of Roman Catholicism, then ignore all of his works. It is biased to pick what agrees with you and discard what contradicts you. According to Barrett's there are 223 RC denominations including the breakdown that you went through.

God Bless

And by the way, for the guy who mentioned it, my name's not John- although it's nice to know someone out there likes me. :)

Joe and Inquisitor:

I grew up in an independant Christian Church which was a movement that split off of the Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ. What's the big difference between them? The way the church organization is structured and the music style in worship. Other than these differences there is little if any other, what I would term, "essential" doctrinal disputes. I think the point that Sandt is attempting to make is why are those three churches considered separate "denominations" when it comes to Protestantism even though they believe almost the same thing, [actually I bet that each independant Christian church is labled as a separate denomination] when there are similar differences in Catholism that are all lumped together as Roman Catholic. If you take out all of these supposed Protestant "divisions" based on nonessentials I think you come out with a much lower number which is closer to reality.

Also if you by definition exclude all Catholics that don't believe exactly the way the Catholic Church said you should believe, then of course that would eliminate all seeming splits in the ranks. If I were to also say that all Baptist churches that don't believe the way my Baptist Church believes are not true Baptist, then I can also say that there are no splits among us Baptist. This really doesn't get us anywhere does it? This argument ends up being nothing more than symantics and labling to me.

The fact remains Christainity as a whole is split into many differing beliefs. It is up to each of us to attempt to mend the 500 and 1000 year rifts and restore unity. We are not going to get this unity by arguing about this nonsense.

By the way I think the reason that Protestant churches have historically defined the Catholic Church as the anti-christ is due to the stance the Catholic Church took with them at the Counsel of Trent. The Church's anathemizing [is that a word?] was and is just the flip side of the same coin.

In Christ,

Thomas

Thomas,
If there were no doctrinal differences, then why would you break off (violating Christ's prayer) and form another church? What you seem to be saying is that you "divided" just for the sake of dividing. That's perhaps worse than if you at least had a doctrinal reason to do so.

Also, you can argue that the "Baptist" church is unified and those who believe differently aren't baptist. But this doesn't solve the problem of multiple protestant denominations. The point is that a protestant can't condemn another church, since protestants ultimately believe in relativism: whatever the individual is lead to believe is right. This is the error that leads to thousands of divisions.

Those above referenced as Catholic "denominations" are either (a) in full union with Rome, which makes them Catholic and not a denomination, or (b) have intentionally left the Catholic Church, just as the Baptists, Methodists, etc. did. The point is that each protestant church has formed a unique doctrine that they all say comes directly from the Bible. Yet these doctrines are often contradictory, so something is wrong. The problem lies in the fact that they have forsaken the other half of doctrine, Tradition, and thus they misunderstand and misinterpret the half that they have, Scripture. And this leads to division (only half of the Truth).

God bless,
Jay

Jay,

"The point is that each protestant church has formed a unique doctrine that they all say comes directly from the Bible. Yet these doctrines are often contradictory, so something is wrong."

Please give 3 examples.

God Bless

Jay,

You said “If there were no doctrinal differences, then why would you break off (violating Christ's prayer) and form another church? What you seem to be saying is that you "divided" just for the sake of dividing. That's perhaps worse than if you at least had a doctrinal reason to do so.”

First of all the Christian Church movement broke off back in the 1800’s so I didn’t personally break off of anything, nor did I have a say in the division. I am using this as an example. [Don’t quote me, but I believe that I am right on this] The reasoning behind the break from the Church of Christ was over the issue church organization. Doctrinally the two churches mirror one another. Why the split? It was probably due to pride, arrogance, and a lack of love on both sides of the issue. Was this right? Of course not, but I’m not raising the example to show the rightness or wrongness of the division. My point in bringing this up was not to dissect this particular break, but to emphasize that not all divisions of the church were over hard and fast doctrinal issues. In fact I would argue that most divisions were and are over nonessentials, which I will grant to you completely violates the unity Christ asked us to observe. However, to say that there are 30,000 denominations out there with 30,000 different doctrinal stances is outright misstating the facts. I think that all I and Sandt are asking you and others here on this blog to do is to use the same rules you use for the different Catholic sects within Catholicism. Most of these sects believe the same in the essential doctrines of the Catholic faith, but differ in the nonessentials. The same with most Protestants. Of course you wil have your fringe groups out there (ie health wealth and prosperity televangelists), as well as your out and out cults (ie Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses). I will grant to you that fringe groups are more likely in the realm of Protestantism, however, there is a much less likelyhood of all of us getting it wrong as in Catholism.

You said, “Also, you can argue that the "Baptist" church is unified and those who believe differently aren't baptist. But this doesn't solve the problem of multiple protestant denominations. The point is that a protestant can't condemn another church, since Protestants ultimately believe in relativism: whatever the individual is lead to believe is right. This is the error that leads to thousands of divisions.”

First of all, I don’t believe that we Protestants were condemning anyone here. It is the Catholics who are doing the condemning. Secondly, I want to address another fallacy which I keep hearing repeated on this blog. Protestants do not believe in relativism. We do have a guide [Scriptures] which we cannot counter. It may be, to you, an incomplete and misinterpreted guide, but it is a guide nonetheless. For example we cannot say that Mary is sinless due to the fact the Bible is clear that ALL have sinned. We have a duty to read and interpret Scripture rightly. We cannot make it say something it clearly does not. [Something that the Church doesn’t seem to have any qualms about. Talk about relativism!] It is not a wax nose to be molded in any fashion we see fit. If we attempt to do so we are in the wrong. This is an absolute. However, things that are silent in Scripture we believe are left up to the consciences of the individual. I think that this is reflected in Paul’s letter to the Romans regarding Christian liberties.

You said, “Those above referenced as Catholic "denominations" are either (a) in full union with Rome, which makes them Catholic and not a denomination, or (b) have intentionally left the Catholic Church, just as the Baptists, Methodists, etc. did. The point is that each protestant church has formed a unique doctrine that they all say comes directly from the Bible.”

I think that I have addressed this above.

You said, “Yet these doctrines are often contradictory, so something is wrong. The problem lies in the fact that they have forsaken the other half of doctrine, Tradition, and thus they misunderstand and misinterpret the half that they have, Scripture. And this leads to division (only half of the Truth).”

You may have a point here. I remain open minded, but ultimately for now unconvinced.

In Christ,

Thomas

Below is a link to a website that has substantially documented that "several" major Protestant denominations have indeed claimed, at one point or another, that the Catholic Church or the papacy is the antichrist. What I find classic is that many have since decided that their founders (i.e. Martin Luther, etc) were mistaken on this point. It's an interesting site, if you wish to do further research on this topic.

Examining Protestantism

To me the exact number of denominations is a trivial point, Protestants must justify "denominationalism" biblically...something they have never done. Catholicism, even with its' different rites, remain unitied in her profession of faith. I guess to sum up all this talk about the number of denominations I will refer to my fellow Catholic apologist, Dave Armstrong:

I, as a Catholic apologist, can easily admit that Svendsen is right about wrongheaded definitions concerning denominations, but that doesn't have any ill effect whatever on the overall Catholic apologetic. On the other hand, Protestant apologists like Svendsen and White (even ecumenical Protestant apologists and other thinkers) have a huge problem trying to biblically justify denominationalism and sectarianism and in determining the internal causes of same (which we Catholics would identify as: sola Scriptura, private judgment, so-called "supremacy of conscience," the sectarian and exclusivistic mindsets, anti-institutionalism, anti-sacerdotalism, rejection of a binding apostolic tradition and Church, and of apostolic succession, episcopacy, even American cultural individualism running rampant within American Protestantism, etc.) that they have by no means ever resolved or even squarely faced.

Joe,

Since you wanted to know, I attend an apostolic pentecostal church. Now, what is the difference between myself and a traditional Methodist? It probably is more lively, meaning more praise and worship music, at my church. It may be a calmer atmosphere at a Methodist church. We may talk about gifts of the spirit more at my church. But these are non essentials as far as core doctrine goes.
Jay goes on to say that

"The point is that each protestant church has formed a unique doctrine that they all say comes directly from the Bible. Yet these doctrines are often contradictory, so something is wrong"

Each protestant church has a unique doctrine?
What are these unique doctrines?
I believe Thomas summarized well on the differences you have in Protestantism.
I am interested in what examples of unique doctrines that are present. Please provide 3 examples

God Bless

SandT, Thomas. You both claim that the differences between Protestant denominations are not about "essential" points of doctrine. When I belonged to the Evangelical crowd, the younger ones were of the opinion that it was time to stop "majoring in the minors". Over the years, I came to realize that there were deep and essential divisions within the Protestant community. The Evangelical/Liberal split being the most prominent of them.

Did Jesus rise from the dead? Will he personally return? Is salvation found in Christ alone? Were Jesus and the disciples of the erroneous belief that Christ would personally return within 50 years of his death? Is sex before marriage sinful? Are homosexual acts sinful? Did Jesus actually say the things the Bible says he said?

I suspect I know your Evangelical answers to those questions and that you consider it essential that people get the answers to those questions correct. Many Liberal Protestant denominations answer differently than Evangelical Protestants. (Interestingly enough, those issues often cause Evangelical Protestants to view Roman Catholics as allies in fighting the good fight). The Evangelicals I knew eventually came to believe that the Liberal Christians werent even Christian at all - though they did consider Catholics to be Christians who were seriously misguided.

But Evangelical Protestantism does have deep divisions. The following may seem like minor points to the younger generation, but they certainly are not minor to the generation above us:

Can infants be baptized? Do Christian parents sin by omission if they do not get their babies baptized? If someone who was baptized as an infant wishes to become a member of an Evangelical Church should membership be denied until they get baptized as an adult? Can a child be baptized? Can a child receive communion? Can communion be celebrated more than once a month? Can every believer receive communion? Do churches have the right do deny communion to believers from other denominations? Do churches have the right to deny communion to people in adulterous relationships? Can communion be given to those who have not been baptized? Must communion be offered to believers who have not been baptized? Is there such a thing as a just war? Do Christians have the right to refuse conscription or do they have a duty to perform military service? Are Christians allowed to join the army? May women preach from the pulpit? Can women be pastors? Can someone who has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ but rejects the doctrine of justification by faith alone be saved? Can you lose your salvation? Is there a rapture? Is the rapture before, after, or during the tribulations? Is it ok to speak in tongues? Is it necessary to speak in tongues? Does refusal to speak in tongues mean that one is not really a Christian? Are there any sacraments? Is having an abortion ok? Is capital punishment ok? Do Christians have any right to speak out against capital punishment? Do Christians have a duty to speak out against capital punishment? Must Christians refuse to date/marry someone who has been divorced? Can someone who is divorced remarry?

Answer any one of the above questions and I will bet I can find a Protestant denomination that not only disagrees with you but considers the issue essential enough to write down in its constitution / statement of faith. Answer all of the above questions and I will bet that you contradict teachings that the very church you attend considers essential enough to put into write down in its own constitution / statement of faith.

You may consider the doctrinal questions I asked above to be non essential but I am sure the older members of the Church you attend would argue otherwise.

Thomas and SandT, I leave you with one final question: is "the correct classification of issues into essential and non-essential" an essential issue?

If yes, then all I need do is pick any two Protestant denominations find out what they think is essential, show they differ in what they think is essential, and that shows they differ in what is essential, and that shows that the splintering of denominations shows a lack of agreement on essentials.

If no, then you are well on your way to relativism whether you realize it or not. After all, in what sense can you be in full agreement on essentials with another believer if THEY think you have made an error on an essential issue?

After I joined a Baptist Church, I went to a conference (Urbana put on by InterVarsity Christian Fellowship) and had to pick my denomination from a list of over fifty, over seven denominations of which were Baptist - I had to call the office to find out which one to put a checkmark beside.

After enough analysis there really only remain two options: relativism or recognizing there is disagreement on essentials.

Broken,

On the same note you have Roman Catholics divisions who are in disagreement with Rome. Dissenters is how your new pope addresses them. Yet you will say, if they don't follow Rome, they are not Roman Catholic. Because you believe that the Roman Catholic church is the ultimate arbiter on earth. On the same note, there are those who truly follow Scripture and those who don't. Now, I know you will say that each person is their own interpreter. You are rested assure in the tradition of your church. However, Greek orthodox lay the same claim to apostolic tradition as well. If you ask me, who am I to say that the next person is in error about interpretation of Scripture, then I can also ask you the same. Sedevacantists believe that you have fooled into following the second vatican. They hold a claim to tradition as well. Who are you to say that they are wrong.

In any event, please give examples of protestant churches and their beliefs that you feel I or Thomas might disagree with.

God Bless

Broken, Joe and Sandt,

Sorry for my lack of response. I have been away on vacation for the past few days.

I have never stated that Protestant splits on essential elements of doctrine have not happened, for they have. Only that of the 20,000 to 30,000 Protestant divisions the number of splits that were over real essential doctrinal issues is much much smaller. Catholics throw out the number 30,000 way too loosely. That was my one and only point.

However, let’s discuss the issues with the Catholic Church on this point. I have perused some websites listed on your linked ones, specifically The Curt Jester. There doesn’t seem to be a day that goes by where he is not attacking someone inside the Church for failing to believe/teach/promote the official doctrine of the Church. These are not just some laymen or a rouge monk in a monastery in the Brazil. These are priest, nuns, bishops, even archbishops and whole orders who do not follow the Church’s teachings. These people make up the infrastructure of the very Church you are defending. I will not even begin to get into the varying beliefs of the individuals in the congregations. The reason I bring this point up in regard to unity is that it seems to me that the Catholic “unity” is a sham. It is a sham, which is held together by the Church’s leadership failing to address the serious dissention in the ranks. Lack of consensus on an issue? No problem we just won’t address that issue. A rough bishop whose teaching is outside the Church’s? No problem we will just ignore him and maybe he will take an early retirement and go away on his own. Having a Church indorsed banner which says “Mary save us”? No problem we will get around to addressing that heresy in a hundred years or so. Having individuals in the congregation openly practicing contraception? No problem we’ll just turn our back and pretend it isn’t happening. Why is it that the Church refuses to address these real issues? I can only believe that they want to maintain this illusion of unity, because they know that if they started to come down hard on some of these issues the Church would splinter in a hundred different factions. (Which would actually be the best thing they ever did, if they separated the wheat from the chaft. They would at the very least gain my respect.) And it’s not going to get any better in the future with the vastly divergent viewpoints coming out of Catholic universities nowadays. The Catholic Church has some serious issues and in this sense it has far less real unity within its clergy and congregation than my little old Baptist Church does.

Joe,

You stated:

“Below is a link to a website that has substantially documented that "several" major Protestant denominations have indeed claimed, at one point or another, that the Catholic Church or the papacy is the antichrist. What I find classic is that many have since decided that their founders (i.e. Martin Luther, etc) were mistaken on this point.”
What I find even more “classic” is the fact that all Protestants were ananthemized heretics by the Counsel of Trent and yet by Vatican II we were merely “separated brothers”, and this from a Church that is supposedly infallible, something that Luther et al. and most Protestant churches never claimed to be.

In Christ,

Thomas

Thomas wrote:
What I find even more “classic” is the fact that all Protestants were ananthemized heretics by the Counsel of Trent

Not quite accurate Thomas. The Council of Trent Anathematized doctrines not people. Furthermore, it is possible these doctrines which were declared heretical are not actually Protestant doctrines despite a striking similarity.

The classic example is the "justification by faith alone" anathema which forms the core of the Lutheran approach to salvation. The joint declaratation on the doctrine of justification by faith that occurred during the reign of the late Pope John Paul II states that the anathema from Trent, while legitimate, does not apply to the current Lutheran understanding of justification by faith alone.

It appears there has been a 400 year misunderstanding over the word faith. Jay made a post which quotes from a book by Peter Kreeft which explains that the word "faith" in the Bible has two different meanings and cites numerous examples as being used in the sense of "trusting in God with heart, mind, and action" and also being used in the sense of "mere intellectual assent".

Trent anathematized justification by "mere intellectual assent" alone. Lutherans believe in justification by "trusting in God with heart, mind, and action".

Thus the anathema of Trent, while still valid, does not apply to Lutherans who wholeheartedly trust in the Lord.

Also, even though many Protestants DO believe doctrines anathematized by Trent, this does NOT necessarily make them heretics. The Second Vatican Council explains this (when introducing the term separated brethren in Unitatis Redintegratio) by saying that The children who are born into these communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation.

Thomas, while I deeply respect your freedom to reject whatever Catholic doctrines and practices you wish do criticize, please do not misrepresent the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church or claim that you know more about the Roman Catholic faith than 90% of Catholics.

While I do not ask you to believe anything the Roman Catholic Church teaches, I do ask that you find out what the Roman Catholic Church teaches before you post information about the Roman Catholic Church. Do you consider my request reasonable?

Richard:

I don't believe I have misrepresented Catholic Doctrine. The ananthems pronounced at Trent were against people who believed certain doctrines, they were not against the doctrines themselves. I'm not even sure you can anathemize an idea. I believe in these certain doctrines thus I am by definition ananthemized or in other words accursed/excommunicated/banned/detested by the Catholic Church. How can I in the same sense be merely a separated brother?

You said: "The Second Vatican Council explains this (when introducing the term separated brethren in Unitatis Redintegratio) by saying that The children who are born into these communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation."

How can we not be still accused? Just because we didn't come up with these truths doesn't mean we still don't believe the same things that the Reformers did back then.

The Counsel of Trent makes it clear that any who believe these doctrines are ananthemized, not any who came up with them in the first place.

In Christ,

Thomas

Thomas, are you saying that you understand the Council of Trent but that all the Popes and Bishops since the Second Vatican Council do not?

Are you still saying that the anathemas of the Council of Trent were directed at people rather than doctrines even though the Second Vatican Council says otherwise?

If that is the case, then the Roman Catholic Church you reject is not the Roman Catholic Church that I accept...

Richard,

The following are the Canons from Trent:

“Canon 1. If ANYONE says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 2. If ANYONE says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 3. If ANYONE says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 4. If ANYONE says that man's free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God's call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 5. If ANYONE says that after the sin of Adam man's free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing only in name, indeed a name without a reality, a fiction introduced into the Church by Satan, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 6. If ANYONE says that it is not in man's power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil as well as those that are good God produces, not permissively only but also propria et per se, so that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of St. Paul, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 7. If ANYONE says that all works done before justification, in whatever manner they may be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 8. If ANYONE says that the fear of hell,[113] whereby, by grieving for sins, we flee to the mercy of God or abstain from sinning, is a sin or makes sinners worse, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 9. If ANYONE says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 10. If ANYONE says that men are justified without the justice of Christ,[115] whereby Her merited for us, or by that justice are formally just, let him be anathema.

Canon 11. If ANYONE says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost,[116] and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 12. If ANYONE says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy,[117] which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 13. If ANYONE says that in order to obtain the remission of sins it is necessary for every man to believe with certainty and without any hesitation arising from his own weakness and indisposition that his sins are forgiven him, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 14. If ANYONE says that man is absolved from his sins and justified because he firmly believes that he is absolved and justified,[118] or that no one is truly justified except him who believes himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are effected, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 15. If ANYONE says that a man who is born again and justified is bound ex fide to believe that he is certainly in the number of the predestined,[119] let HIM be anathema.

Canon 16. If ANYONE says that he will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation,[120] let HIM be anathema.

Canon 17. If ANYONE says that the grace of justification is shared by those only who are predestined to life, but that all others who are called are called indeed but receive not grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let HIM be anathema.

Canon 18. If ANYONE says that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace,[121] impossible to observe, let HIM be anathema.”

Emphasis mine.

Of course these are translated into English, but I believe that they are translated correctly. If you have an issue with the translation let me know.

Notice it says ANYONE and HIM. Then again I guess it all depends on what the definition of those words are . . .

Then again who am I to interpret the interpretations of the infallible interpreter in the first place? I guess I’ll leave that to the infallible interpreter . . . except if I am so plainly wrong about the original interpretation how can I ever know for sure what the Church’s interpretation of its interpretation is exactly saying? In fact maybe its you who are misinterpreting Vatican II’s interpretation of the interpretation of the infallible interpreter? Or . . . maybe both of us are misinterpreting both Trent and Vatican II and what the Church was really describing was a recipe for a good chicken casserole. I guess we will never know because words don’t really mean what they mean when the Church speaks . . .

With all due respect, if words can mean anything we have indeed sunk to the pit of relativism.

In Christ,

Thomas

Perhaps the following article will help explain the Anathemas from the Council of Trent.

The "Anathemas" from Trent mean two things: these doctrines are taught infallibly, and anyone believing the contrary may not receive communion in the Roman Catholic Church. This is fully consistent with the term "Separated Brethren" from Vatican II. Protestant rejection of essential Catholic doctrine means that the Protestants remain brethren yet cannot receive communion with us.

As for anathema bringing damnation, I believe Canon 1983 makes it clear that the Catholic Church does not have power or the knowledge to determine if someone is damned or not (with possibly the exception of Judas Iscariot because Jesus tells us of his doom).

Thomas, if you insist on saying the anathemas apply to persons, I will concede as far as saying they only apply to Roman Catholics who have a solid understanding of the faith and still reject it. Remember the decrees of the Council of Trent are addressed to those inside the Roman Catholic Church not outside. It warns those inside the Church that they risk placing themselves outside the Church and becoming separated brethren if they adopt certain doctrines.

Thomas, thank you for forcing me to look into this issue. It was a serious stumbling block to my returning to the Roman Catholic Church and remained a source of trouble for me even after I returned.

--
"you do not need a degree in theology to be a saint but you do need a degree in theology to be a heretic" - author unknown to me

Excellent points, BR! Thanks.

Wow! I was surprised to see you inserting articles against the Catholic Church. From the article from ELC Pastor McCain, it was amazing to see how detail outlining some faults of the Church. Mass; Buying and selling of masses; Mass as the work of man and not part of God's teaching; Idolatries (statues, etc), Purgatory; Fraternities; Holy Father (Pope) and kissing his feet, rings, hands, etc; relics. The more I think about the practices in the church and what I saw when I lived in Italy, it could be very possible that the anti-Christ could arise thru this universal church. I never thought about this before but, all of the info you give helps to point this out. But, Praise God! Someone/church/power has to be in this role. Without it, Christ would not return.

Too bad the entire world didn't become Catholic priests and nuns. If they had, there wouldn't be a civilization today.

I really liked the Nicene Creed. If the Catholics practiced this without the need to place a "Church Name", and without all the traditions, it could be a nice place to go. Furthermore, all the articles talking above are more concerned with "Churching" than "Living". If we ALL were more concerned with Me in Christ, and Christ in Me, we wouldn't have too many debates. Churches seem to be more concerned with their religions than their relationship with God.

Lastly, you are correct, there are so many splits. I have even heard Robert Schuler stating that ALL ways lead to heaven and ALL ways are acceptable.What category does he fall into? Hopefully, not Christian.

Let's just love one another the best we can, regardless of creeds.

David

I have to tell you that I do not personally believe in an anti Christ, but if I did I would have to say that it was the Catholic Church. How in the world do so many sick, sick pedophiles come together in one place? The Catholic faith forced people to join it with torture and death, look at the Crusdades and the rape and robbery of the Mexican heritage. But, I digress, that is history. How anyone can continue to worship in a place full of DIRTY, FILTHY, NASTY, STINKING PEDOPHILES, is beyond me. It's A SICK EPIDEMIC - and should be STOPPED!!!! I went to a filthy Catholic school full of dirty lesbian nuns - and they were cruel too. I HOPE YOU FILTHY SCUM ARE FINISHED.

Stumbled on this site looking for info on # of protestant sects and was amazed at the pit of semantics you who posted comments all must face. I've concluded that your God, whatever you call him and whatever doctrines you follow, has already started what you are all predicting: he gave man the capability to create the heaven he promises right here on earth. We are doing a poor job! Progress is being made in the scientific arena. Not so the religeous, political and ethical areas. Perhaps the world will be a better place if you all apply "God helps those who help themselves" to your concept of eventually arriving in some sort of heaven.

I personally believe that the Catholic church is the Antichrist. Satan is the great deceiver and he can surely use his absolute understanding of the word of God against us. He can run a religion that appears to worship God, the Son and the Holy Spirit, but lead you astray. Back in the day when Constantine suddenly decided he wanted to be Christian (seeing that most of his empire was Christian), he immediately converted all his Pagan priests to Ministers or Bishops or whatever you want to call them. This is how Satan, thru Paganism, penetrated the Holy Church. Do you really think Constantine and his priests were saved? Negative. They only appeared to be so. This is how the catholic church has come to be the biggest deception and false gospel in the world. Trust in the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Just yesterday, Pope Benedict XVI stated that Catholicism is the only true way to salvation. That all other "Christian" churches are false and no salvation can be had from them. You still think Catholicism is correct?

James,
Give us a break with the rhetoric. Please see Matthew 16:18. According to your interpretation, if Satan penetrated and ultimately corrupted the Catholic Church then you make Jesus a liar when he says the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against the Church.

As far as the Pope goes, you have again not quoted him correctly. You probably got your source from an internet site or something. What he in fact said was that:

"...these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation."

"In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church."

This does not in any way say that other "churches" are false and no salvation can be had from them, in fact, just the opposite. James, the Catholic Church fully recognizes that all who have been properly baptized into Christ ARE Christians and have the hope of salvation. However, there are thousands of non-Catholic denominations that will not acknowledge the same of Catholics. James, I will give you a pass on this out of ignorance, but please learn what the Catholic Church teaches instead of assuming what you think to be true. Otherwise you make assumptions that are utterly outlandish.
Peace,
Matthew

History shows us the cathloic church is , and always will be the satanic evil monster that it is, have you not read " Foxes Book Of Mayrters " how decieved you are, you worship men, idols, look for signs, Jesus said they will look for signs, I have seen only arogant, mindlessfools associated with this church of satan, you wear garments and look to honered, you do not look to the word for Truth, you use it to misdirect and lead many to hell, you slaughderd over 150 million woman , children and men, and your priest have rap[ed the innocence of thousands of children, you turn your eye ti the truth and say you are christian, you are like white seplicures, all polished on the outside yet dead inside, may God the LORD JESUS CHRIST have mercey on you, repent or answer to HIS JUDGEMENT,... Jack williams

Jack

So you support the burning of Evangelicals and Baptists too eh? That is what kind of regime John Foxe supported. Here read on: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9803conv.asp

In Love

when we were one

If Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior were to walk this earth this day, surely, the Catholic Church will be the 1st ones to say crucify Him. The Catholic church knowingly praise to Mary for forgivness of sins when God said no man comes to the Father but through Jesus Christ. You are also not to pray in vein, repaticious prayer and yet you repeat idolic words while fondling beads. Jesus said many will look for signs and miracles and will not find them. How can religion use the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their own glory. You believe the Pope to be without sin yet the scripture says all have sinned and have fallen short of the Glory of God. Who elected the Pope to be exempt from sin? Man? Nonsense. The Catholic church is responsible for over 150 million torturous deaths. The most blood shed in history of any one group. The divise of the most evil tortures created were by the Popes and Catholic Church themselves. You call yourselves Christians? You are like the scribes and pharosees, all polished on the outside yet dead inside. There is only one way to salvation and that is through Jesus Christ. Only He is able to forgive sins through the blood he shed on the cross. Please read Fox's Book of Martyrs to understand the truth. Please read the scriptures and seek the truth. For Jesus said, anyone who knocks at my door I will answer and let him in. I will pray for you and the misled people of the Catholic church (which do include some of my family members). I was raised as a Catholic and saw the evil that it was from a young age. Your priests have robbed the innocents of many young children and you have hidden it. Now, is this of Christ? Sounds to me the works of the Devil himself. Any fool can see that if you look.

Jack

None of your comments are true. I've looked at them all and you are making things up. Can you substantiate any of your misunderstandings or are you reading from some site that is programming you for hate?

Here... we both love scripture lets start there:

John 8:44 - You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

When we see people posting such vile lies and hate that should raise a red flag. Did the Jesus of the gospels teach this way?

Go to a Catholic Church to find if that is what they really teach. If they do teach such things bring the source here we'll take a look together. But if they don't teach such things then hasn't Christ just illuminated a "liar" trying to lead you astray?

For example if you want to know about the United States, do you goto the Declaration of Independence or would you goto say the Russians or Iranians or perhaps the Peoples Republic of China and ask them about the USA? They say America was formed with the sole intent to kill all of you they have killed at least 150 million people. Would you say yep thats true or would you go further and ask an American. If the American says "no way" then pull out the declaration of independence and show where in there it says so. If you can't then you have been made a liar haven't you? And what does Christ say about this liar issue? John 8:44

For example some darkly led liar has told you "(Catholics) praise to Mary for forgivness of sins." or " You believe the Pope to be without sin." You come to us Catholics and we say no way Jesus died for our sins. We do believe the Pope sins. In fact he has his own confessor. Why would he need a confessor if he didn't sin? Well prove to us from our church documents that what your source says is what we believe. here you can find a Catechism here... www.vatican.va About pedophile priests, what about pedophile pators here read this from the Insurance Journal http://www.insurancejournal.com/comments/?a=/news/national/2007/06/18/80877.htm&c=70725

You note :"Your priests have robbed the innocents of many young children and you have hidden it. Now, is this of Christ? Sounds to me the works of the Devil himself. Any fool can see that if you look."

So if there are pedophile protestant pastors and pedophile priests, according to your logic neither of these groups are the true church. Are you then going to become a Muslim? Im sure there are issues in all denominations and religions because man is flawed and must depend on the grace of the Lord. Thank goodness your logic is also flawed. Scripture tells us that Christ himself called 12 and 1 was Judas. Do you abandon Christ because of the 1 Judas? Sounds like you have. Where in scripture does it advocate such behavior?

Second you call us fools...what translation are you using? Here try this on from the RSV: Matthew 5:22 - "But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire."

Its simple if you cannot find it at that Vatican site then it doesn't exist as church teaching. If it doesn't exist then your friend is a liar and is making you one. John 8:44

In Love

when we were one

Thank you for responding, I was a bit suprised that you would reply, if you truly believe in the shed blood of our LORD JESUS CHRIST and know that HE died for our sins, then we agree on that , and yes pedofiles are every where, yet you still did not make comment on why the cc hid this vile sin for so many years, if this were a case found in a protestent church that person would be put out of the church, yet the catholics only hid it and paid people off, yes I know Joe, I know first hand, I was brought into this world and from a catholic background and school, you will some day come to understand that if a church hides such demonic sins, ( you also did not address the 150 million innocent people your church slaughterd and devised satanic tourtours ) why not explain that to me, and why do you think I am a hate monger, I am far from that there is only one church, and they are the innocents , the ones who led a Godly life and lived according to the scriptures, come on Joe this is history, not even the muslems killed as many as the catholic church, you do worship idols, you do, this is truth Joe why do your people so despertly try to defend that which is not of Christ, did protetants dame there accusers, no that asked OUR LORD TO HAVE MERCY on them, Joe many denomantions have strayed, many,... but the truth remains GOD hates relgion, it puts a wedge between many many beloved Christians, and yes catholics, I am not to judge Joe, and is it by chance that we have met, many churches have distortations, but you and I know that the simple Gospel of Christ is enough for man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, I know you seek truth as do I, I just do not believe in adding or taking away from the Word of GOD, no more of this Joe you are praying for me, and I am praying for you and we are praying to the same God, you need not post or respond, I only write you cause I like you love the LORD, I hope one day to see you in that Kingdom, I am not ashamed of the Gospel, and can live by HIS WORD alone, sorry for the misspelling, Im just a simple barber, waiting fir the return of our LORD, and while I am still here I will preach no Gospel except that which is in the Bible, In Christ Jack Williams

Jack

Thank you for responding. I am not Joe. I am just a humble poster like yourself that was raised Catholic. I however was given the grace to look deeper into the accusations of others outside of the church only to find empty lies and the handiwork of the evil one.

I take your most recent post as an admission that you recognize the parts of your posts I commented on were all in error. They are common lies spread by Satan. But because I didn't address other parts of your posts does not mean that they also are not full of error.

Because you have shown some ability to recognize the lies placed in your path I am honored to walk with you further through this morass of garbage that Satan has dragged you. I pray that God will allow me to coherently walk with you further.

First you note re: pedophiles "if this were a case found in a protestent church that person would be put out of the church"... here Jack look further http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm this is an entire website set up by our suffering Baptist brothers and sisters to stop the "vile" predators being "hidden" in their church. And look futher you will see this in all churches. Paul warned us and Christ showed us that there will be Judas's.

After putting that to rest, you now need to show me where you come up with this 150 million number. This is often cast about by anticatholics about the Spanish Inquisition. Unfortunately for the liars they are again caught by their traps of lies. 1st off the entire world at that time had around 75 million people... that should settle it for you. But if it doesn't, the real number of those killed in the inquisition was at most 5000 see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
Lastly, it was not the church but rather the King of Spain that executed this act see that same site.

So Jack...so far I have disproven everyone of the points that the dark one has placed to lead you astray. Since we both love scripture please hold John 8:44 close by when these suspicious doubtful thoughts come to you.

One more... you complained about vain prayer...again you have been mislead. What does the bible say? Here read this from catholic.com "In Revelation 4:8, for example, the four living creatures repeat, night and day, the prayer "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come." You can't get more repetitive than that." Worse than that, the evil one would mislead you into making Christ himself a "vain prayor" Matthew 26:44 tells us that Jesus himself used repeated prayer...when...In his most dire need!!! In the garden of Gethsemane!!!

You can find the answers to many of these lies Jack at www.catholic.com remember Christ's last wish and prayer before being taken from the garden was what Jack? What was it Jack? You can find that in John 17: 20-23... it was that we would be ONE like he and the Father are one... so the world would believe. What is Satan's job then Jack? to divide us.

Oh also you note that God hates religion... can you show me the Chapter and verse I'm not familiar with that. I am familiar however with Revelation 22:18 - I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, ... did these liars make you add that to the book Jack?

In Love

when we were one

Im sorry we see scripture different, that is somthing we should not defer, I was saved by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ at the age of 23, until that time I truly believed that my eternity would be in hell, I say that because at the age of 16 the evil of the satanic bible and the heavy metal music and the abuse and drugs took me to a place I can never describe in words, I only nkow that I was taken away from my body, actually seeing myself lying in my bed as I was taken out, my friend the horrror of what I expierienced was the deepest cold, the deepest fear, and the stench of what know human man can put together, I prayed to God the only way I knew, begging to not go were I was going, when I was released, I came to, and that is when I knew I was not deserving of Gods grace and mercey because I knew I was born into sin, the babtism I received as a baby, had in know way insured my salvation, knowing God lives, I keept to myself the only ray of hope I had at the time, and that was this, that when I stand before my LORD, I will remember HIS face as i enter hell, at the age of 23 I was shown the simple Gospel of JESUS CHRIST, in John 3:16, for God so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begoting SON, that who ever shall beleive shall have eternal life, not by works , lest any man boast, a AWSOME it was that day and still his, I am not going to argue with you, Scripture clearly shows us the way, the early church met in homes and woods and sang praises and taught from HIS word, after wards they would sahre a meal together, these were not heritics and did not kill anyone they went to ther death freely not excepting that the " catholic church was the only true church," there are many false prophets, and satan cimes as a light, he hids in many churches, this is where you will find him, I can not and will die any death adhere to the teachings of the catholic church, just as I would any other relgion, you still do not except the chatholic chuch was involved in these murders, even though history accounts for it, many still believe Hitler did not kill the Jews, there is no arguement I have with you, it is the will of satan to decieve, you believe I am decieved , yet I stand on my freedom in CHRIST, please know that I am not here to condem you or your church, only to to tell you to keep your heart open and ask for HIS WISDOM, we are told not even to make images , not only to worship them, please listen to you prayer to Mary, " Hail" mary full of grace pray for our sinners now and at the hour of our death, she cannot pray for us , did you not know of the rich man and Lazerous, he, the rich man could not have any his family warned, I would not bow down to Mary as I would not bow down to bale, you are my frienf and you have much hate towards those who are not catholic, I do not preach to be a Baptist, Methodist, nor any other than the grace and salvation of Christ through the cross, no rituals, no repitious prayer," the prayers you refer to are those of the Heavenly creatures of GOD, not the spirits of dead man, remember the man on the cross entered Heaven in his belief that Jesus was and is the SAVOIUR, no baptism, no relgion, we have a direct rout to God through JESUS CHRIST, I know you will alway seek whAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE TRUE, AND THAT MY FRIEND IS THE BEGGING, I suggest taking a year away from the catholic church and visit other churches, maybe a Calvary chapel, or non denomanational, ask GOD, I did my friend with the catholic church, you can always go back, but share your love with others not of the catholic church, I love you , truly and will not condem you , I have not stoped praying for you, in fact for the rest of my years I will keep you in prayer, I may not have many left, for I am afflicded with liver disease, though healthy now, I fear not death it has ni sting, can we be friends ? and know my friend my last letter was not a confirmation on your outlook or beliefe I am a messenger as was John the Baptist and Paul and many others of the : GOOD NEWSIm sorry we see scripture different, that is somthing we should not defer, I was saved by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ at the age of 23, until that time I truly believed that my eternity would be in hell, I say that because at the age of 16 the evil of the satanic bible and the heavy metal music and the abuse and drugs took me to a place I can never describe in words, I only nkow that I was taken away from my body, actually seeing myself lying in my bed as I was taken out, my friend the horrror of what I expierienced was the deepest cold, the deepest fear, and the stench of what know human man can put together, I prayed to God the only way I knew, begging to not go were I was going, when I was released, I came to, and that is when I knew I was not deserving of Gods grace and mercey because I knew I was born into sin, the babtism I received as a baby, had in know way insured my salvation, knowing God lives, I keept to myself the only ray of hope I had at the time, and that was this, that when I stand before my LORD, I will remember HIS face as i enter hell, at the age of 23 I was shown the simple Gospel of JESUS CHRIST, in John 3:16, for God so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begoting SON, that who ever shall beleive shall have eternal life, not by works , lest any man boast, a AWSOME it was that day and still his, I am not going to argue with you, Scripture clearly shows us the way, the early church met in homes and woods and sang praises and taught from HIS word, after wards they would sahre a meal together, these were not heritics and did not kill anyone they went to ther death freely not excepting that the " catholic church was the only true church," there are many false prophets, and satan cimes as a light, he hids in many churches, this is where you will find him, I can not and will die any death adhere to the teachings of the catholic church, just as I would any other relgion, you still do not except the chatholic chuch was involved in these murders, even though history accounts for it, many still believe Hitler did not kill the Jews, there is no arguement I have with you, it is the will of satan to decieve, you believe I am decieved , yet I stand on my freedom in CHRIST, please know that I am not here to condem you or your church, only to to tell you to keep your heart open and ask for HIS WISDOM, we are told not even to make images , not only to worship them, please listen to you prayer to Mary, " Hail" mary full of grace pray for our sinners now and at the hour of our death, she cannot pray for us , did you not know of the rich man and Lazerous, he, the rich man could not have any his family warned, I would not bow down to Mary as I would not bow down to bale, you are my frienf and you have much hate towards those who are not catholic, I do not preach to be a Baptist, Methodist, nor any other than the grace and salvation of Christ through the cross, no rituals, no repitious prayer," the prayers you refer to are those of the Heavenly creatures of GOD, not the spirits of dead man, remember the man on the cross entered Heaven in his belief that Jesus was and is the SAVOIUR, no baptism, no relgion, we have a direct rout to God through JESUS CHRIST, I know you will alway seek whAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE TRUE, AND THAT MY FRIEND IS THE BEGGING, I suggest taking a year away from the catholic church and visit other churches, maybe a Calvary chapel, or non denomanational, ask GOD, I did my friend with the catholic church, you can always go back, but share your love with others not of the catholic church, I love you , truly and will not condem you , I have not stoped praying for you, in fact for the rest of my years I will keep you in prayer, I may not have many left, for I am afflicded with liver disease, though healthy now, I fear not death it has ni sting, can we be friends ? and know my friend my last letter was not a confirmation on your outlook or beliefe I am a messenger as was John the Baptist and Paul and many others of the : GOOD NEWSIm sorry we see scripture different, that is somthing we should not defer, I was saved by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ at the age of 23, until that time I truly believed that my eternity would be in hell, I say that because at the age of 16 the evil of the satanic bible and the heavy metal music and the abuse and drugs took me to a place I can never describe in words, I only nkow that I was taken away from my body, actually seeing myself lying in my bed as I was taken out, my friend the horrror of what I expierienced was the deepest cold, the deepest fear, and the stench of what know human man can put together, I prayed to God the only way I knew, begging to not go were I was going, when I was released, I came to, and that is when I knew I was not deserving of Gods grace and mercey because I knew I was born into sin, the babtism I received as a baby, had in know way insured my salvation, knowing God lives, I keept to myself the only ray of hope I had at the time, and that was this, that when I stand before my LORD, I will remember HIS face as i enter hell, at the age of 23 I was shown the simple Gospel of JESUS CHRIST, in John 3:16, for God so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begoting SON, that who ever shall beleive shall have eternal life, not by works , lest any man boast, a AWSOME it was that day and still his, I am not going to argue with you, Scripture clearly shows us the way, the early church met in homes and woods and sang praises and taught from HIS word, after wards they would sahre a meal together, these were not heritics and did not kill anyone they went to ther death freely not excepting that the " catholic church was the only true church," there are many false prophets, and satan cimes as a light, he hids in many churches, this is where you will find him, I can not and will die any death adhere to the teachings of the catholic church, just as I would any other relgion, you still do not except the chatholic chuch was involved in these murders, even though history accounts for it, many still believe Hitler did not kill the Jews, there is no arguement I have with you, it is the will of satan to decieve, you believe I am decieved , yet I stand on my freedom in CHRIST, please know that I am not here to condem you or your church, only to to tell you to keep your heart open and ask for HIS WISDOM, we are told not even to make images , not only to worship them, please listen to you prayer to Mary, " Hail" mary full of grace pray for our sinners now and at the hour of our death, she cannot pray for us , did you not know of the rich man and Lazerous, he, the rich man could not have any his family warned, I would not bow down to Mary as I would not bow down to bale, you are my frienf and you have much hate towards those who are not catholic, I do not preach to be a Baptist, Methodist, nor any other than the grace and salvation of Christ through the cross, no rituals, no repitious prayer," the prayers you refer to are those of the Heavenly creatures of GOD, not the spirits of dead man, remember the man on the cross entered Heaven in his belief that Jesus was and is the SAVOIUR, no baptism, no relgion, we have a direct rout to God through JESUS CHRIST, I know you will alway seek whAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE TRUE, AND THAT MY FRIEND IS THE BEGGING, I suggest taking a year away from the catholic church and visit other churches, maybe a Calvary chapel, or non denomanational, ask GOD, I did my friend with the catholic church, you can always go back, but share your love with others not of the catholic church, I love you , truly and will not condem you , I have not stoped praying for you, in fact for the rest of my years I will keep you in prayer, I may not have many left, for I am afflicded with liver disease, though healthy now, I fear not death it has ni sting, can we be friends ? and know my friend my last letter was not a confirmation on your outlook or beliefe I am a messenger as was John the Baptist and Paul and many others of the : GOOD NEWSIm sorry we see scripture different, that is somthing we should not defer, I was saved by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ at the age of 23, until that time I truly believed that my eternity would be in hell, I say that because at the age of 16 the evil of the satanic bible and the heavy metal music and the abuse and drugs took me to a place I can never describe in words, I only nkow that I was taken away from my body, actually seeing myself lying in my bed as I was taken out, my friend the horrror of what I expierienced was the deepest cold, the deepest fear, and the stench of what know human man can put together, I prayed to God the only way I knew, begging to not go were I was going, when I was released, I came to, and that is when I knew I was not deserving of Gods grace and mercey because I knew I was born into sin, the babtism I received as a baby, had in know way insured my salvation, knowing God lives, I keept to myself the only ray of hope I had at the time, and that was this, that when I stand before my LORD, I will remember HIS face as i enter hell, at the age of 23 I was shown the simple Gospel of JESUS CHRIST, in John 3:16, for God so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begoting SON, that who ever shall beleive shall have eternal life, not by works , lest any man boast, a AWSOME it was that day and still his, I am not going to argue with you, Scripture clearly shows us the way, the early church met in homes and woods and sang praises and taught from HIS word, after wards they would sahre a meal together, these were not heritics and did not kill anyone they went to ther death freely not excepting that the " catholic church was the only true church," there are many false prophets, and satan cimes as a light, he hids in many churches, this is where you will find him, I can not and will die any death adhere to the teachings of the catholic church, just as I would any other relgion, you still do not except the chatholic chuch was involved in these murders, even though history accounts for it, many still believe Hitler did not kill the Jews, there is no arguement I have with you, it is the will of satan to decieve, you believe I am decieved , yet I stand on my freedom in CHRIST, please know that I am not here to condem you or your church, only to to tell you to keep your heart open and ask for HIS WISDOM, we are told not even to make images , not only to worship them, please listen to you prayer to Mary, " Hail" mary full of grace pray for our sinners now and at the hour of our death, she cannot pray for us , did you not know of the rich man and Lazerous, he, the rich man could not have any his family warned, I would not bow down to Mary as I would not bow down to bale, you are my frienf and you have much hate towards those who are not catholic, I do not preach to be a Baptist, Methodist, nor any other than the grace and salvation of Christ through the cross, no rituals, no repitious prayer," the prayers you refer to are those of the Heavenly creatures of GOD, not the spirits of dead man, remember the man on the cross entered Heaven in his belief that Jesus was and is the SAVOIUR, no baptism, no relgion, we have a direct rout to God through JESUS CHRIST, I know you will alway seek whAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE TRUE, AND THAT MY FRIEND IS THE BEGGING, I suggest taking a year away from the catholic church and visit other churches, maybe a Calvary chapel, or non denomanational, ask GOD, I did my friend with the catholic church, you can always go back, but share your love with others not of the catholic church, I love you , truly and will not condem you , I have not stoped praying for you, in fact for the rest of my years I will keep you in prayer, I may not have many left, for I am afflicded with liver disease, though healthy now, I fear not death it has ni sting, can we be friends ? and know my friend my last letter was not a confirmation on your outlook or beliefe I am a messenger as was John the Baptist and Paul and many others of the : GOOD NEWS

Jack

Again you are being mislead. #1 I have many friends and family that are Protestant one is even a Nazarene pastor. I've been to many Protestant services. I hate to say it but you have just placed your opinion on this site. You have placed no truth. You wave your hands and say our doctrines praise Mary for forgiveness and the Popes sinlessness now you claim that Catholics believe in salvation by works. I ask for proof from the vast www.Vatican.va site. Surely you can find these beliefs of yours here. But you can't, can you? That is because you are the source of these repeated false beliefs. Go ahead show me.

You also claim "history" clearly shows the Church killed so and so... really? Show me... you cant.

I love to ask my Protestant brothers who did God ask to convert the Roman Empire, Mayan, and Inca, Celts and Barbarians? Catholic... And we still enjoy their cultures today. Who did he ask to convert North America and South Africa? Look at your average Central or South American Catholic...Look European to you? Look at your average North America... Look European to you? Who genocided the continent? Where are the Mohicans where are the Hurons where are they we were sent to convert? 6 feet under... Who was in charge of N. America? Catholics or Protestants?

John 8:44

In Love

When we were one

Jack

Oh yea... people don't want to believe in the Native American holocost either... Oh Yea was Luther German? Was he Pro Jew? What about Germany they must be the home of the Vatican right? Couldn't be the home of Protestantism...ya how bout that genocide...did it happen now? thats 2 genocides for you in 500 yrs what else you got... bring it because it all adds up to your delusion.

In Love

when we were one

when we were one

Did you study about the Spanish Conquistadors in school?

I don't think the sarcasm wins anyone over, even when the sarcastic one may be right on the issue.

If Jack is misinformed then just try to present him with the correct information.

I know it is easy to come across as arrogant when we ask questions in which we know what the answer is, just don't say things like "bring it" it's only going to fuel the fire or turn people off.

For example, for the first time I just heard about how when in Matthew's gospel Jesus renames Peter and gives him the keys to Heaven, that this is prophecied of in Isaiah!! Now if the Papacy is based on Scripture this is something that someone who is calling the Catholic Church antichrist even though claiming to believe scripture is going to have to examine prayerfully and honestly.

Jack?

Did you know that the Bible mentions that God/Christ appoints a prime minister to reign in his absence? This may not make you comfortable coming from your background and the things you have been taught to believe, but if you are going to believe Scripture, the Word of God, then actually read it all and study it all before you go and condemn anyone. Read Matthew 16 and Isaiah 24 and see what you think...

skelly

Thank God for sending you to our site. Indeed after reading my comments (not only this incident) I realize how smart and sarcastic I can be. I recently found out that the great apologist St. Francis de Sales had himself a mean temper that needed to be quenched... he is now known as the gentleman saint.

I apologize to all readers for my sarcasm in the face of invincible ignorance.

Yes indeed I have read about the Conquistadors... my point to Jack is to be fair. If he is going to count the Conquistadors then he needs to count the Pilgrims. And when he is finished counting he will see that Central and South Americans still exist and Mohicans dont.

In Love

when we were one

The truth is clearlym not in you , you only believe that which the Whore of babolon teaches, there is no need to arguee with the devil, many are called, but few are chosen, there will be a day when ymany will stand before God and say " we did this in your name and that in your name, and He will say " depart from me I never knew you, Idols, purgatury, worship of men, looking for stupid signs, you like satan know the truth and so do the demons, and they tremble, you have posted a web sight to promote false teachings, and you have yet to prove me wrong because you use scripture to teac false doctorns, beware , because you rather believe a lie than the truth, you have not studied Church history only catholic teachings, and ypu have not read ' Foxs book of mayetrs, and you have chosen the evil one,/ do deney the horros of this inbred church of satan, and teach false doctorns, salvation is through the Blood of Christ, not infant babtism, Mary had other children and cannot forgive sins, the church raped children. and you throuhg in a bone that protestnts have , your sick and demonicly controlled, You would worship plastic , metal, gold, and silver, what man is more humble, the pope who requires to be praised or a man like Billy Gram, your lost and refused the truth because u denoed Christ, ...Please do not respond all you do is twist the truth, as satan does,

skelly

I think you mean Isaiah 22.

In Love

when we were one

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AUTHORITY...ERROR VERSUS TRUTH

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES
THE HOLY BIBLE TEACHES

1. Peter was the head of the apostles. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 552, 765, 880) Christ was the head of the apostles. (John 13:13)

2. The bishops are the successors of the apostles. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 861, 862, 938) The apostles had no successors, for to succeed them, one needed to be a witness of Christ's resurrection. (Acts 1:21,22)

3. The Pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 882, 936) Peter had no successor.

4. The bishops, with the Pope as their head, rule the Universal Church. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 883, 894-896) Christ, the head of the body, rules the universal church. (Colossians 1:18)

5. God has entrusted revelation to the Roman Catholic Bishops. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 81, 86) God has entrusted revelation to the saints. (Jude 3)

6. The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 85, 87) The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church. (John 14:26; 16:13; I John 2:27)

7. The Magisterium is the infallible interpreter of Scripture. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 890, 891, 2034, 2035) Scripture is the only infallible interpreter of Scripture. (Acts 17:11)

8. The Pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 891) God alone is infallible. (Numbers 23:19)

9. The Magisterium alone has the ability and the right to interpret the Scripture. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 85, 100, 939) Every Christian, aided by the Holy Spirit, has the ability and the right to interpret Scripture. (Acts 17:11; I Corinthians 2:12-16)

10. Scripture is to be interpreted in the sense in which it has been defined by the Magisterium. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 113, 119) Scripture must be interpreted in the original sense intended by the Holy Spirit. (II Peter 3:14-16)

11. The Magisterium has the right to define truth found ony obscurely or implicitly in revelation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 66, 88, 2035, 2051) No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture. (I Corinthians 4:6; Proverbs 30:6)

12. Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 81, 85, 97, 182) Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35; 2 Timothy 3:16,17;2 Peter 1:20,21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13)

Who is the Vicar of Christ? What is a vicar?

The title "Vicar of Christ" comes from the title"Vicaius Christi", which was used by Emperor Constantine when he teamed up with the Church of Rome. "Vicarius" is translated into English as "vicar" which means "in place of" or "another". Thus..."another Christ". Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) was the first Bishop of Rome to declare himself to be "Vicar of Christ".

Pope Nicholas III (1277-1280) went a step further and claimed to be "Vicar of God", which would be the same as calling himself "another God" (Vicar of God). The term "antichrist" translated into Greek is "vicarius christi", or vicar of christ.

John 16:7-13 tells us: "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will REPROVE THE WORLD OF SIN, AND OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND OF JUDGEMENT: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgement, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howebeit when he, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH is come, he will GUIDE YOU UNTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and HE WILL SHOW YOU THINGS TO COME."

Now you have just heard what the TRUE VICAR would do. He would GUIDE YOU UNTO ALL TRUTH. Has the pope done that? No! As a matter of fact, he has guided his church into all error! In order to be the One that Christ said would come, the pope would have to first of all be in the true Church of Christ. He is not! He is the leader of the largest cult in the world!

The Catholic Church is guilty of shedding innocent blood. She is guilty of preaching a gospel contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ.