April 29, 2005
The Rosary and Matthew 6:7
In the many discussions I have had with Protestants over the years regarding the Rosary one of the first questions to come up is the following: How do Catholic justify praying the Rosary in light of what Jesus said in Matthew's Gospel?
"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words" (Matt 6:7)
At first glance it is easy to understand why this question would naturally be asked. The Rosary does consist of numerous prayers being recited repeatedly. Yet we must look deeper at Jesus' words to understand their true and contextual meaning.
Is Jesus condemning repetitive or formal prayer? Absolutely not, for in Matthew 6:9-13 Jesus Himself provides us with a formal prayer that obviously He wants us to repeat on a regular basis. Secondly, Jesus Himself "repeatedly" partook in the Jewish prayers and ritual celebrations practiced by the Jewish people of His day.
So is the Rosary, altough repetitious and formal, a prayer full of "empty phrases" and one that attempts to draw God's attention due to it's lengthiness? Absolutely not. The prayers of the Rosary are full of meaning and devotion, they are not empty, most of them are specifically scriptural. They draw our hearts and minds into a pattern of prayer that better disposes us to meditate on the life of Christ. This immediately leads us into the lengthiness of the Rosary as a prayer. The Rosary is lengthy only in that each time it is prayed a specific portion of Jesus' life is meditated upon. This isn't done in an effort to get God's attention but rather in order to provide ample time to meditate upon each specific event in the life of Christ. It is for this reason that the late John Paul II stated in his Apostolic Letter, ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE:
The Rosary, though clearly Marian in character, is at heart a Christocentric prayer. In the sobriety of its elements, it has all the depth of the Gospel message in its entirety, of which it can be said to be a compendium.(2) It is an echo of the prayer of Mary, her perennial Magnificat for the work of the redemptive Incarnation which began in her virginal womb. With the Rosary, the Christian people sits at the school of Mary and is led to contemplate the beauty on the face of Christ and to experience the depths of his love. Through the Rosary the faithful receive abundant grace, as though from the very hands of the Mother of the Redeemer.
In praying the Rosary, Catholics, through Mary grow closer to Christ, just as Christ through Mary came closer to us. This is not what Jesus was condemning in Matthew 6:7, rather this is exactly what He was encouraging in John 15:9:
As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love.
The love of Jesus Christ has been revealed to us in His life, death, and resurrection. It is in meditating upon these events that we find the heart and the meaning of genuine Marian devotion and the Rosary itself.
In Christ,
Joe
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Joe,
I can tell you what is taught at our church. We believe that Jesus gave a model for prayer. First we our to give thanks and praise to Our Father. Then we are to submit to his will. Then we are to ask for forgiveness as well as praying for our enemies. Then we ask for our needs. Jesus did not tell the disciples to repeat this prayer. If that was the case, subsequent to the lesson, the apostles would have repeated that prayer all the time. But they didn't.
Matthew 6:7 to us means that it does not matter how many times you repeat something or how complex the words, it won't mean a thing if it is not from the heart. A child with a heart after God can pray and be effective in fewer words and a simpler language in communing with the Lord.
As for the rosary. Doing such and such a prayer for every 10th bead or whatever have you, is not scriptural. That is not to say that it is wrong. Unfortunately, a lot of Catholics just repeat with out focusing on God. I remember going to confession and hearing my friends zip through the prayers quickly. And 'walla', they were forgiven. When it gets to that point, that is when the words are empty. Maybe that is not how it is intended to occur when praying the rosary, but it often happens that way.
However if one devotes themselves to prayer and reading the Scripture, that is perfectly fine and in line with the Word of God. Prayer should be from your heart and soul.
Now you say that most prayers involved in the rosary are scriptural, and yet there are quite a few that are not.
Once again, this discussion will come down to what determines right and wrong for the church to practice. Once again, I do not find Marian devotion, or any teaching of Mary bringing us closer to Christ to be found in the Bible.
Nonetheless, if you want to pray with coins or anyother inanimate object, as long as you do not put your faith into the object and your heart and focus is on the Lord, then it is fine. However, anything pertaining to worship and prayer not found in the Bible is not true. Of course, that is if you hold Scripture to have paramount authority.
God Bless
SandT,
I completely agree with you in that prayer must come from the heart. It must be internalized so to speak.
In terms of the "Our Father" and its being repeated repetitively by the Apostles and other early disciples, I must disagree with you. The Didache, one of the earliest "cathecetical" documents in the earlier Church, believed to have been written around 140 A.D., we find the following:
And do not pray as the hypocrites do, but pray as the Lord has commanded in the Gospel: Our Father, who art in heaven; hallowed be Thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven; give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil; for Thine is the power and the glory for evermore.Say this prayer three times a day. - Ch. 8
Many other Early Church Fathers also wrote about the value of praying the Our Father often due to the obvious fact that it was given to us directly by Christ Himself. You also state that Scripture doesn't tell us to pray the Our Father repeatedly, yet in the Acts of the Apostles we find the Apostles themselves saying:
"But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word." - Acts 6:4
In Eph 6:18 we read:
Pray at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication.
Then again in Col 4:2 we read:
Continue steadfastly in prayer, being watchful in it with thanksgiving...
I don't think we are not following Scripture by repeatedly praying the Our Father. It is clear that Jesus told us how to pray and then the Apostles encouraged us to pray continually.
You and I are in agreement on what Matthew 6:7 means. It doesn't matter how long you pray, as long as it comes from the heart. Yet, I hope we are in agreement that this in no way means that we can't pray for long periods of time. I can't imagine God being angry with us for engaging in long, heartfelt prayer. In fact, Jesus Himself would spend extended amounts of time in prayer (Matt 14:23; Mk 6:46; Luke 5:16, 6:12, 9:18 & 28, 11:1).
I completely agree that prayer and Scripture should go hand-in-hand, that is why we pray the Rosary, for it is a meditation on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I have a small booklet that I sometimes use that has a Scripture verse to meditate on for each Hail Mary prayed. The verses pertain to the mystery being meditated on, i.e. the Birth of Jesus, the Agony in the Garden, Jesus' Ascension into heaven, etc. It is a very powerful prayer experience. Since you seem to believe that there are quite a few prayers in the Rosary that aren't Scriptural would you be so kind as to let me know which ones you are talking about? I know of 7 prayers said during the Rosary, so please let me know.
You say you don't find Marian devotion in Scripture, but my question for you is this. Is it wrong to honor Mary? I'll sum up the Mary issue with a brief series of questions and answers, just for you and all our other readers to think about:
1) Was Mary Jesus' Mother? Yes
2) Did Jesus obey the 4th Commandment and honor His Mother? Yes
3) Are we called to be imitators of Christ? Yes
4) Are we called brothers and sisters of Christ? Yes
5) Do we, in a mystical way, become one in Christ, becoming His Body? Yes
6) Did Jesus give Mary to John the beloved at the foot of the Cross, calling her the disciple's Mother? Yes
7) In imitating Christ and the Apostles, do we error in honoring His mother? No
Just something to think about.
In terms of your friends and confession, I want to clarify something here. There are conditions that must be met in order to be forgiven our sins. I just posted an article on this.
What Is Confession And How Does It Work?
In conclusion, just allow me to reaffirm the one thing we can agree on...prayer must come from the heart, it cannot be just empty phrases. May we all continue in prayer.
In Christ,
Joe
Joe,
I agree that we are to devote ourselves to prayer, without ceasing. As for your question on Mary, the prayers and devotions dedicated to her are too much like worship for us. I will chalk that up to our differences and misunderstandings of each others religious beliefs. Nonetheless, we do give Mary as we do give Ester, her due. These were wonderful women of God, but more importantly just wonderful servants of the Lord.
I am sure that the Apostles always treated Mary as well as their own mothers with respect and honor. However, they did not seek Mary for prayers to Christ. Not Peter nor Paul. They never mentioned seeking Mary to pray to Christ for them. While I feel that you have Christ at the center of your attention, I believe the danger and error in these prayers towards Mary is that a lot of Catholics lose the focus on Christ. Maybe that is not the intention of the prayers to Mary, but I have seen it happen at least in the local Catholic churches in my area.
So let me ask you this, if someone were to pray to go into a closet and fall on their knees and just focus on God and pray without seeking Mary at all, is that not good?
Of course we are assuming that the prayer is from the depths of the individual's heart.
God Bless
SandT,
In order to answer your question allow me to ask a question.
Have you never asked anyone to pray for you?
It's not that praying to God alone is bad, it's the reality that God has united us, in Christ, and that we, as members of His Body, are to pray for and support one another. St. Paul makes constant mention of how he prays for others and asks for the prayers of the faithful as well(Rom 1:9, 15:30-32; 2 Cor 1:11, 9:13-14, 13:7; Eph 1:16, 6:18-19; Col 1:9, 4:3; Phil 1:4; etc). James likewise tells us to pray for one another (5:16). Yet one of the most powerful verses about the prayers of God's people comes from the book of Revelation:
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. - Rev 8:3-4
Here we are clearly told that the prayers of the saints, be they on earth or in heaven, rise up with the smoke of the incense before God.
So how can it be wrong to ask the saints to pray for us?
Why shouldn't we ask the saints to pray for us, since their prayers "rise with the smoke of the incense" before Almighty God?
Also, we are told that Mary was with the Apostles before and at Pentecost (Acts 1:14, 2:1). Keep in mind that Mary stood at the foot of the Cross, Mary was with Christ at the wedding in Cana, Mary was the one who Christ chose to spend 30 years with. Think about that SandT. Did you live at home with your mother until you were 30? Why did Christ find it necessary to do this? Why did Christ spend 90% of His time here on this earth with Mary? These thoughts should give us pause and cause in us a great appreciation for this wonderful Mother.
In Christ,
Joe
Joe,
We are going once again into a discussion we had before. All that you have posted is merely assumption. I do not question that Jesus did indeed honor and loved his mother. I also believe that Mary was part of our Lord's ministry. However, there is no mention of a co-mediatrix in the Bible. There is one mediator between man and God and that is Christ. As far as asking others to pray for me..sure I have. However this goes back to the challenge, find me where in the Bible someone on earth prays to someone in Heaven other than the Lord.
Why shouldn't we ask the saints to pray for us, since their prayers "rise with the smoke of the incense" before Almighty God?
It's simple Joe, because it is not instructed to pray with saints who are not on earth.
God Bless
SandT,
Show me in the Bible where prior to Jesus Christ and St. Paul we have any understanding of the "Body of Christ". You seem to have no problem asking living members of the "Body of Christ" to pray for you, yet you reject the notion that those brothers and sisters of ours, in the "Body of Christ", who have left this world can and do pray for us. It just doesn't add up... Your idea of the Mystical Body of Christ is simply temporal. You fail to acknowledge the eternal aspect of the matter.
Explain to me how we can claim to be a "part" of the "Body of Christ" but those who have passed from this world in some way cease to be. You make Heaven some abstract place where those who are fully united with Christ have less of a connection with the "Body of Christ" than those on earth. Again, it just doesn't add up.
I will continue to ask you and my other brothers and sisters in Christ, here on this earth, to pray for me, but I refuse accept your notion that we shouldn't seek the aid of our brothers and sisters in Christ simply because the Sacred Scriptures don't "specifically" tell me to do so. I value greatly the prayers of the Apostles and those who imitated Christ while on this earth. You should too.
In Christ,
Joe
Joe,
Christ instructed that when two or three on earth pray together in His name, that He is there. Christ made no mention of one on earth praying with/to someone in heaven. If Christ felt that praying to saints in heaven was crucial, He would have mentioned it. Not only that, but I am sure you would have seen it taught in the Bible by the apostles. Yet Christ never taught it, nor was it taught by the apostles. Maybe the saints in heaven are to busy worshipping God. Maybe it is because they are not omnipresent like God to even hear prayers of various individuals on earth. Whatever the reason, Christ nor the apostles taught that prayers to saints in heaven are a practice to be done. Christ did specify two or three on earth, but never in one on earth and one in heaven.
I have no problem with asking someone on earth to come into agreement with me or to pray for me because Christ specifically teaches it. In addition, when I ask someone to pray for me, I do not ask them to pray for me and leave it at that. I ask them to pray for me, then I go on my knees and pray for myself as well as the individual praying for me.
Finally, we have instances in the Bible where people suffer consequences for unauthorized worship and prayer. Examples being Aaron's sons and Saul.
In the end, I believe that praying saints is wrong simply because Christ did not mention it nor was it taught or supported by the Holy Scriptures. As Marc had previously posted, you will not find one instance where someone on earth is praying to someone in heaven. It is not in the Bible. I do not believe that it was an oversight by God. Nor do I believe in coming to conclusions without solid proof by the Scriptures. God is thorough and very specific when it comes to worship.
God Bless
Posted by: SandT@cctv.org at May 3, 2005 11:32 PMSandT,
Sorry but you are mistaken brother. The entire book of Revelation is a discourse between a "man on earth" with those in heaven. In chapter 7, John "speaks" with one of the elders in heaven (7:13-17). Then in Rev 22:16 Jesus Himself states:
I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches.
Why did Jesus need to use an "angel" to deliver the testimony? In the same sense, we, as Catholics, understand the Mystical Body of Christ. Saints in heaven was a relatively new concept for the Apostles since it was only through the resurrection of Jesus Christ that entrance into heaven was made possible. Over the first centuries the union of all believers in the "Body of Christ" developed and began to take on an eternal aspect. It is an "eternal communion in Christ" and we are made one in the Eucharist, because in the Eucharist we receive Christ Himself who unifies all his children. Jesus' prayer in John 17 magnifies this understanding:
"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved me." - Jn 17:20-23
Clearly Jesus says in verse 20 that he prays that all believers be one (please note that He doesn't limit that unity to earth) as He and the Father are one. Again, as I stated before, you make heaven some abstract place where those who are fully united in Christ have less of a connection with the "Body of Christ" than those on earth. You still haven't explained why asking our brothers and sisters in heaven to pray for us is not good, while asking our brothers and sisters on this earth to pray for us is good. Lest we forget, we all are brothers and sisters in Christ.
Understand that Catholics ask for the prayers of the saints, but also immediately turn to our Lord in worship and petition for our need. It is full union in the Body of Christ. We realize that we, through Baptism, are incorporated into that same "Body" in which all the saints exist. It's really that simply. Your comment about Aaron's sons and Saul isn't applicable here, because we don't "worship" the saints....period (I hope by now you are at least clear on that one point).
Also, Christ did leave us an example of conversing with those who have gone before us in Matthew 17:1-9. Did not Christ converse with Moses and Elijah? Why did He need to do that? Couldn't He have just spoken with God the Father?
I continue to find it amazing how you refuse to look at what those who have gone before you held to, for it is out of that Tradition and through the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that we have the Bible as we know it today. I will leave you with the words of St. Cyril of Jerusalem, written in year 350 A.D.:
Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, Apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep; for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn Sacrifice is laid out. - Catechetical Lectures
In Christ,
Joe
Joe,
This is the beginning of Revelations.
"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."
I mention this because it is important to understand that God had given John a revelation. John was giving a testimony of this vision. In this vision John explains that he saw a multitude of worshippers and that he spoke to an elder. So he spoke to an elder and asked him a question. Does that mean he asked the elder for a prayer? Of course not. You should take time out and paste the Scripture you refer to. Mind you, this is all a vision given to John by God. God merely sent an angel to relay the message. Nonetheless, John does not seek the angel to pray for him. In addition..an angel and a saint are different. But that is not important to this discussion.
It is clear that God has sent angels to relay messages to those on earth. That is obvious. But the discussion here is that there is not an example of someone on earth praying to, or asking a saint in heaven to pray for them to be found in the Bible.
In Rev 22
"7"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"
10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
Clearly the angel wanted no form of devotion or honor, for the angel knew that it was wrong. Yes, there is an interaction between John and the angel...but that interaction is merely of a message being relayed. Not of John and the angel praying together.
As for Jesus' transfiguration...I fail to see how that equates to prayers to saints. Jesus did not pray with Elijah or Moses. He merely conversed with them. There is a much more important representation of this scene in the Bible, but it definitely is not associated with prayers to saints. Was Jesus praying with Moses or Elijah? According to my Bible, there is no mention of that at all.
"Your comment about Aaron's sons and Saul isn't applicable here, because we don't "worship" the saints....period (I hope by now you are at least clear on that one point)."
Aaron's son presented an unauthorized censer as part of their worship. Presenting censers was part of worship, but the Lord did not command them to do so.
Lev 10
"Lev 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not."
Unauthorized. Note, it does not say that GOd forbade them to present that censer. It says that God commanded them not...as in God did not command them to do so.
As for Saul, he saught the counsel of Samuel and we see where that led him.
"You still haven't explained why asking our brothers and sisters in heaven to pray for us is not good, while asking our brothers and sisters on this earth to pray for us is good. Lest we forget, we all are brothers and sisters in Christ."
I explained already, but I will explain again. Christ authorized praying with others on Earth. He did not mention, teach and most of all, authorize praying to the saints who have passed before us. It's that simple.
God Bless
SandT,
My point in referencing Revelations is to show that God chose to use other means than Himself to communicate with John. Jesus allows John to converse with an elder, who would have to been aware of John in order to answer his question.
In terms of Lev 10:1-3 consider this:
We do not know the exact nature of these priests' infringement. Apparently they used a fire other than that from the altar of holocaust. Some scholars, on the basis of the rules that follow (vv. 8-11), think that maybe in the meal held after the ordination these two sons of Aaron drank to excess and were not quite aware of what they were doing. Anyway, they infringed the rules of worship laid down by Moses. The episode shows that God prefers obedience to sacrifice (cf. 1 Sam 15:22-23; Hos 6:6).
Again, Aaron's sons and Saul aren't applicable because by praying to the saints (i.e. asking for their intercession) we are not "breaking" God's command in terms of worshipping Him. He never said, "don't ask for prayers from your departed brothers and sisters in Christ, only from those who are living." No, His prayer was that all believers, the living and the dead, would be one, as He and the Father are one (Jn 17:20). There is no form of separation in the Blessed Trinity.
This argument you keep using about Christ not authorizing it more than likely falls short in your own experience in terms of worship. Jesus didn't authorize the building of churches as places of worship, but I bet you worship Him in a church every Sunday...don't you? Thing about SandT.
In Christ,
Joe
Joe,
"This argument you keep using about Christ not authorizing it more than likely falls short in your own experience in terms of worship. Jesus didn't authorize the building of churches as places of worship, but I bet you worship Him in a church every Sunday...don't you? Thing about SandT"
Ha! This is definitely reaching for straws. Nonetheless, the Bible instructs us not neglect the assembly. As for the buildings, there were already temples, which are buildings, where people would meet. This reasoning that you present is weak.
We can have church in a tent, at a school, or in a park or an abandoned building. It is the gathering together for fellowship that we are instructed to do. Simply put, I can show you in the Bible that the church did gather at temples. A temple is a building. That was definitely authorized by God.
However, you cannot show me where someone seeks a saint for prayer in the Bible.
"In terms of Lev 10:1-3 consider this:
We do not know the exact nature of these priests' infringement. Apparently they used a fire other than that from the altar of holocaust. Some scholars, on the basis of the rules that follow (vv. 8-11), think that maybe in the meal held after the ordination these two sons of Aaron drank to excess and were not quite aware of what they were doing. Anyway, they infringed the rules of worship laid down by Moses. The episode shows that God prefers obedience to sacrifice (cf. 1 Sam 15:22-23; Hos 6:6)."
Once again, this is all an assumption. It is not in the Bible. Is it a possibility...maybe. However, it clearly says why they were killed.
This is from the New American Bible which is a Bible used by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.
Leviticus 10:1
1 During this time Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers and, strewing incense on the fire they had put in them, they offered up before the LORD profane fire, such as he had not authorized.
It was not authorized:)
So to answer your post, the use of buildings as a gathering place for the church is definitely authorized and can be found in the Bible. Aaron's son's were killed because of an unauthorized presentation. The Bible does not show any instance of someone teaching/practing the prayer to saints. Jesus specified that 2 or 3 on earth can pray together. Jesus did not mention that one in heaven and one on earth can pray together. You can come to the conclusion that it is ok, but it was not authorized by Jesus nor taught by His apostles.
God Bless
SandT,
Okay, show me that the Church gathered in temples, especially Jewish temples... I do agree that it is really dependent on those who gather in the Lord's name and, most importantly, when they gather with a priest.
Yet, I will not let you off the hook that easy...you claim that my argument is weak in this area, but you have yet to explain to me how it would be "wrong" or "bad" to ask a brother or sister in heaven to pray for me. You also have continually ignored John 17:20 and Matthew 17:1-9, but I expected that you would. It is one thing to say that Jesus "didn't authorize it," but to the best of my knowledge no Catholic has been struck dead for asking a saint to pray for them...in fact quite the opposite has occurred. Many miracles have been worked through the intercession of the saints. In fact, in order for a person to be canonized a saint in the Catholic Church two miracles must be recorded as a direct result of that individual's intercession. To magnify this reality I will point you to a saint of our modern times:
St. Padre Pio, who bore the wounds of Christ in his flesh - a phenomenon that I have only heard of in the Catholic Church - has two amazing, scientifically documented miracles attributed to his intercession. You can read about St. Padre Pio's life here: Brief Bio on St. Padre Pio
You can read about his canonization process here - Padre Pio, the Saint
Every individual that has been named a "saint" by the Catholic Church has specific miracles tied to them, miracles worked through their intercession. If the practice of asking saints to intercede for us is so wrong why would Almighty God continue to work miracles through their "heavenly" intercession?
In Christ,
Joe
Hey Joe,
In response to your question to SandT to show you where the Church gathered in Temples. First, there was only one Temple – you know that already. It is nevertheless, likely that the earliest believers in Jesus, especially those in Judea like Peter and James etc., continued worshipping at Temple, offering sacrifices, and going to synagogue (or something similar) on the Sabbath (Saturday), but also worshipping Christ on Sunday.
It is on evidence of Paul’s letters, the gospels, and Acts that the earliest believers continued worshipping at Temple, keeping festivals, Sabbath, and the food laws.
Worshipping at Temple: Lk 24:53; Acts 3:1; 5:12, 42; 21:26ff.; 22:17.
Offering sacrifice: Mt 5:23-24
Sabbath observance (Saturday!): Mk 16:1; Lk 23:56b
Fasts: Mt 6:16-18
Festivals: Acts 2:1 (Shavuot, i.e. Pentacost)
Food Laws: Acts 10:10-16; Gal 2:12
Peace!
Joe
"Okay, show me that the Church gathered in temples, especially Jewish temples"
Joe, this is easy. Look at Peter and John. They are the early church and they healed a man in the temple. Later Peter was filled with the Spirit to preach boldy.
Acts 3:1
"One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon."
I will fast foward a bit to save some time, but feel free to read for yourself. A man who was crippled who was not allowed to pass through the gates to get into the temple was healed.
After he was healed, Peter and John took this man into the temple courts.
Acts 3:7-10
"7Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. 8He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God. 9When all the people saw him walking and praising God, 10they recognized him as the same man who used to sit begging at the temple gate called Beautiful, and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him."
From here on out, you will find that Peter preaches in the temple known as Solomon's Porch. It is here that Peter becomes filled with the Spirit and preaches boldly. All of this inside the temple. This is just one of many examples I can show you that the church gathered in a building.
How about the day of Pentecost? That occurred in an upper room. Another building I believe.
If you want more examples, just let me know. But I have shown you two examples of the church gathering in a building in the Bible. However, you have yet to show me one example of a person on earth PRAYING to a saint in heaven.
As for John 17:20-26
"20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
Jesus was addressing those in the world. That means earth. Christ says, THOUGH the WORLD does NOT KNOW YOU, I KNOW YOU AND THEY KNOW YOU HAVE SENT ME. I HAVE MADE YOU KNOWN TO THEM AND WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE YOU KNOWN...
Clearly addressing believers on earth.
Now, I am not saying that those in heaven belong to a separate family from us on earth. I am saying that this prayer from Christ was addressed to those on earth. Even still, there is no mention of seeking those in heaven for prayer.
As for the transfiguration of Jesus Christ, I already explained that there is a much deeper meaning to it. In short, Moses represents the law and Elijah represents the prophecies. Both are manifested in Christ. We can discuss more in detail on another thread.
However, they were talking with Jesus. Do saints in heaven talk back to you? I highly doubt it. Have you talked with the apostle Paul or Peter? Regardless, there is no mention that Jesus was praying with them. If it said that Jesus was praying with them, I would concede and admit that you have shown me an example of praying with those who have passed. But Christ was merely conversing with the two. You can assume that it was prayer, but that is just an assumption without proof from the Holy Scriptures.
"Every individual that has been named a "saint" by the Catholic Church has specific miracles tied to them, miracles worked through their intercession. If the practice of asking saints to intercede for us is so wrong why would Almighty God continue to work miracles through their "heavenly" intercession?"
Islamics, Buddhists, and new age cults all lay claim to the miraculous. It does not make them right. But as far as sticking to the Bible, there is not one instance of someone praying to a saint in heaven. There is not one instance of someone teaching on the communion of saints. There is not one teaching of this concept to be found in the Bible. Communion of saints is not Biblical. Unless you can show me an example of it.
God Bless
Posted by: SandT@cctv.org at May 5, 2005 10:13 AMSandT and Jack,
I stand corrected, not by Acts 3:1 or 5:42, for both of those passages point to the fact that the Apostles were going to the Temple to teach and proclaim that Jesus was the Christ not that they were going there to pray or worship. I guarantee that the Jews, especially the priests and Sadducees, would not have pointed to this teaching and proclaiming Jesus Christ as "faithful" observance of the law or worship of God. That is why they were arrested, lest we forget. However, St. Paul does make reference to going to the Temple to pray and to worship in Acts 22:17 (as Jack referenced) and 24:11. So again, I stand corrected, but ALL worship in the Temple ended in 70 A.D. when the Temple was destroyed.
The reason for my question was to make this point...Jesus never told the Apostles to continue worshipping in the Temple, nor did He instruct them to build churches. SandT your claim that asking a saint to pray for us isn't biblical because Jesus never said specifically to do so, should apply to worshipping in churches as well for Jesus never said to do so, in fact he said that we wouldn't worship in the Temple as the above quoted verse clearly shows.
Your exegesis of John 17:20 falls short as well, since it still doesn't explain what Jesus meant by
"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Do you not consider yourself, as a believer, to be included in this statement? Do you deny that Jesus was praying not just for the Apostles but for ALL believers?
Matthew 17:1-9 although most certainly having "deeper meaning" still in reality happened. Moses and Elijah did appear to Jesus and the three Apostles and conversed with Jesus. Peter says that it is "good" that they are there and wants to erect booths. Obviously, he was fully aware of both of them.
Have you looked into the claims of the miraculous within Islam, Buddism, or any of the new age cults? Have they been scientifically documented, as the miracles attributed to a given saint's intercession have been? Was the claim made that the miracles were worked through a given Muslim, Buddist, or New Ager's intercession?
Did you even go read either of those links to the information about St. Padre Pio?
Sidestep it if you will, but that is proof enough for me and for the Church. At least admit that the Catholic Church understands who it is that we worship and adore. We, as Catholics, only worship the Most Blessed Trinity....period.
One last thing, saints have at times appeared to people and conversed with them...fascinating isn't it :-)
In Christ,
Joe
Joe,
"The reason for my question was to make this point...Jesus never told the Apostles to continue worshipping in the Temple, nor did He instruct them to build churches. SandT your claim that asking a saint to pray for us isn't biblical because Jesus never said specifically to do so, should apply to worshipping in churches as well for Jesus never said to do so, in fact he said that we wouldn't worship in the Temple as the above quoted verse clearly shows."
God/Christ did instruct a temple to be built. The Bible clearly illustrates that the temple was used as an area for prayer and worship and learning about the Word of God. Show me where Christ said that we would not worship in a temple. Or are you referring to Christ prophesieng about the destruction of the temple?
Even still, the use of building to gather to worship the Lord was seen at the day of Pentecost. In Acts, you will find the Apostles and Mary and 120 other people went into a room. The worshipped and prayed. Peter was preaching. This sounds like my church. On the day of Pentecost, the wind from heaven came in and filled the house. Every believer in there was then filled with the Holy Spirit.
This is an example of the use of a building as a place to gather for worship and prayer. This occured after Christ was risen.
However, when it comes to praying to saints or Mary. God/Christ never taught it. God/Christ never prayed with a saint in heaven. The Holy Spirit did not move through the apostles so that they would teach it. Peter may have seen Elijah and Moses, but Peter did not pray to or with them. Neither did Christ.
Your exegesis of John 17:20 falls short as well, since it still doesn't explain what Jesus meant by
"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Do you not consider yourself, as a believer, to be included in this statement? Do you deny that Jesus was praying not just for the Apostles but for ALL believers?
In that chapter, Christ was referring to all believers on earth. Christ initially prays for his disciples as well as those who would believe in Him through their message. So that we may all become one and let the world know about Him. They means the apostles and believers. We are to become one as Christ is one with God. Clearly a reference to those on earth. Besides, everyone in Heaven is already united as one, with God. That goes back to Christ's model prayer, that God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. In this prayer, Christ was praying that God's will be done.
Now, I do believe that saints in heaven, meaning those who confessed the name of the Lord Jesus when they were on earth, are part of the same family as I am. We are all children of God. But Jn 17 was referring to believers on earth.
Still, it does not make any mention of prayers to a select few saints who have passed into heaven.
I know more so than before that you will not provide an example in the Bible where a believer on earth, prayed to or with a believer in Heaven. I am not talking about a dialogue...I am talking about prayer. I am not talking about receiving a message from an angel...I am talking about prayer.
As far as proof for whose miracles are true or not, that is up to you to believe. You are now using an external source to support a doctrine that is not supported in the Bible. I am not even going to entertain a discussion on validating claims to miracles. I am just going to stick to the word of God. And like Marc said in a previous thread, I'll say it again as well....you can not find God/Christ teaching to pray to saints. You will not find anyone in the Bible praying to a saint. You will not find anyone praying to Mary. You will not find any of the apostles teaching about prayers to saints or to Mary.
God Bless
Posted by: SandT@cctv.org at May 5, 2005 05:26 PMSanT,
It seems to me that you are the typical Protestant who, through faith, will only belive in what is "writtten." It seems to me that unless Christ Himself directly commanded or condemmed it, you will have no part of the entire deal. Am I correct?
Let me ask you this. Is slavery wrong? It was very popular in the time of Christ in the Middle East to own slaves and slave power. Christ Himself said that slaves are to be obediant to their masters. But, Christ never taught against slavery eventhough it violates His teachings. Christ was silent about it.
So the question remains. Is it wrong or right? See, you can say the same about praying to the Saints in Heaven. The Bible tells us to pray for others and them us, but as you said, never specifically states whether they had to be alive or dead. What you are saying is that because Christ doesn't say one way or the other, you can not believe that it is right so to do. The same with slavery. Christ doesn't say that it is wrong, infact he gives the commandment of obediance to them, but His teachings and His acts and His love shows us how He really feels. Have a little faith my son. Not everything has to be in black or white, let a little gray into your life. That's when the true miracle of Christ comes forth!
Peace,
Shawn
Shawn,
I can show you that the Bible is against slavery. I can show you that the manner in which Africans were enslaved is against the Bible. I can show that Christ is against oppression. I can show you this in the Bible. But first, can you show me where Christ or any of His apostles teach on how to pray to saints? Can you find it in the Bible, yes or no.
God Bless
Posted by: SandT@cctv.org at May 11, 2005 11:37 AMShawn
One last thing.
"The Bible tells us to pray for others and them us, but as you said, never specifically states whether they had to be alive or dead."
Christ did specify whether they were alive(on earth) or dead(in heaven).
God Bless
Posted by: SandT@cctv.org at May 11, 2005 11:39 AMDidn't Jesus pray to God, "Let this cup pass from me"? Does anyone suggest that these were "empty phrases?"
Posted by: AJ at July 1, 2005 12:06 AMDidn't Jesus pray to God three times, "Let this cup pass from me"? Does anyone suggest that these were "empty phrases?"
Posted by: AJ at July 1, 2005 12:06 AMHello to all who are a part of this conversation. I just stumbled across this while looking for a commentary on Matthew 6 and became interested in this conversation because I have had it many times with my mom. She was Catholic and is now attending a Protestant Church but is having problems with letting go of some of her beliefs in what the Catholic Church has taught her.
I am not going to add anything to this conversation other than to say that I noticed how pleasant the responses were back and forth to each other in the beginning. But as the conversation continued it became clear that some feathers were being ruffled. I enjoy a good debate and was delighted to be reading such a good one. I chuckled a few times as I watched both sides defending their views. I am a Protestant with a mom that has tried her best to keep me on the Catholic path but her responses to my questioning some of the Catholic beliefs were simply "common sense tells you". I, too, like to see facts verified in the Scriptures and if I relied on my common sense to show me how to pray and worship then I would soon be far afield.
I have often questioned the rosary, and praying to saints (that man chose). After much conversation about these subjects I came to the conclusion that Mom learned her beliefs in a Catholic Convent as a young person and never questioned them in her adult life until she was in her 60's. After I encouraged her to test her beliefs with scripture and not with just what she had always been told did she begin to realize that maybe she should change her thinking in some areas. It has not been without some agony and some of her beliefs are so ingrained that she has definitely been bothered by the thought of changing her thinking. It has not been such an important issue for me to have her change her thoughts on praying to the saints and having her rosary because I know she understands who Christ is and what He did for us. That is the most important thing. But there is one Catholic belief that has not been mentioned here and that is infant baptism. If there is an example of that anywhere in the Bible I have never come acoss it in all my years of studying the Bible. At least in this area even my mom changed her mind easily.
Please continue this debate as it is a reminder that as long as we are on this earth there will be difference in our beliefs but the Gospel of Jesus Christ has and always will be the sacrifice of God's Son for the sins of mankind. On that subject we all seem to agree. The only that God requires of us for salvation is the repentence of our sins and accepting the Son in our lives as Savior and Lord.
Joy
Joy,
Glad to have you involved. I do hope that you investigate the claims of the Catholic Church before simply dismissing them. Remember, Jesus never wrote a book or told anyone to write a book. What Jesus did was found a Church in Matthew 16:18. That Church, over 350 years after the Crucifixion, put together the Bible as the written part of the Word of God. Without the Oral part of the Word of God, you're likely to have lots of problems. For example, in the Bible Church is never moved to Sundays (from Saturdays). Pastors are not elected by popular vote. And infants are baptized: Read Infant Baptism and the Bible for details. I also recommend reading Praying to the Saints: Are they really Listening?
By the way, your Bible (unless it's a Catholic Bible) is missing books - Martin Luther took out the ones he didn't agree with. I hope you continue seeking the truth.
God bless,
Jay
It's not just Matthew 6:7 that the Rosary has to contend with. Catholics like myself (for how long is uncertain) most commonly pray the Rosary in groups. That contradicts Matthew 6:5 and 6:6. And it's argued well by other Christians that Matthew 6:9 is not to be repeated verbatim. It's a template for prayer. First, honor God's name (not Jesus's or Mary's or anyone else's). Second, acknolwedge God's kingdom, mastery. Thrid, credit His authority. Fourth and last, make your petition in faith.
And let's be honest with ourselves. Most Rosaries are dominated by elderly who treat the prayer like a racing event. There's no deep reflection going on. True, the phrasing is far from empty. But the words are glossed over aching for the next station. In short, it's converted to a chant. And by definition a chant is empty reptition.
I'd much prefer to reflect on the beatitudes than "pray" the Rosary.
May God bless and guide us all,
Tracy
Posted by: tracy at February 15, 2008 01:31 AMTracy,
If a man decides to plan his family by exercising self-restraint during times when his wife is both overburdened and fertile rather than putting his wife on drugs, has he made a noble sacrifice for his wife or is it no better than putting her on the pill or getting a vasectomy?
Posted by: Burnt Marshwiggle at February 17, 2008 08:03 AM
