February 15, 2005
Jehovah Witnesses and the 144,000 Elect: A Catholic Response
The following was a response written by one of our commentors under the Entry: DeoOmnisGloria.com Suggestion Box. It is an excellent response to this "important" doctrine held by Jehovah Witnesses. Enjoy!
I could not help but focus in on your third question in regards to the Book of Revelation and the elect 144,000, a passage that your religion holds to the letter. First of all, there are three facts about the elect 144,000 that Jehovah Witnesses are always silent about and to which I would like to bring into the light. The first of these is Revelation 7: 4-8,
“I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked from every tribe of the Israelites: twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Benjamin.”
This passage with utmost clarity attests that the 144,000 are all Jews. Therefore, this first detail alone of the elect 144,000 found in Revelation raises serious questions in regards to your religion, since, I would venture to guess, most Jehovah Witnesses are not former Jews. If taken literally, Revelation 7: 4-8 clearly excludes the majority, if not all Jehovah Witnesses from being included among the elect 144,000. Why would anyone who only accepts Revelation 7: 4-8 in a literal sense want to be a Jehovah Witness if they are guaranteed to be excluded from that very same 144,000? Instead, why wouldn’t they flock to Judaism or become Jews for Jesus?
The second detail about the elect 144,000 mentioned in Revelation, which is even more perplexing to members of your faith, is found in chapter 14. Revelation 14: 4, “These are they (144,000) who were not defiled with women,” without a doubt attests to the fact that the 144,000 are all of the male sex. If taken only in the literal sense and not in a metaphorical sense, this passage excludes all women from being included among the elect 144,000. Yet again, this second detail found in Revelation raises serious objections to the beliefs of Jehovah Witnesses. Now, not only must you be a Jew, but also you can’t be a woman to be included among the elect 144,000. Why would any member of the female sex want to join your religion if right off the bat because of their gender they are rejected from being members of the elect 144,000? Another problem that becomes even more relevant through this second detail is that not even Jesus’ own Mother can hope to be counted among the elect 144,000. If the vessel God the Father deemed worthy to bear His only begotten Son into the world is not even qualified to be among the elect 144,000, what chance does any woman, let alone person, have of being among the elect 144,000. In fact, if the beliefs of the Jehovah Witnesses about the elect 144,000 are truth than in reality mankind has no hope to obtain salvation.
Besides these first two details, a third detail found in Revelation about the elect 144,000 even further limits those who have a chance to be included among the elect. The second part of Revelation 14: 4, “they (144,000) are virgins and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes,” is even more perplexing for those who hold to the beliefs of your faith that the 144,000 must solely be taken literally. Now in order to be counted among the elect 144,000, it is not only required to be a Jewish male but also to be a virgin. In light of this third detail, Peter, Jesus’ head Apostle, cannot be counted among the elect 144,000 because even though he met the first two requirements he was still previously married. Why would any married man want to be a Jehovah Witness when they along with their wife cannot hope to be among the elect 144,000? Sadly, I could not help but notice in your post that you, Ed, are a married man and a Jehovah Witness. Do not these three details about the elect 144,000 not concern you in regards to your faith? I say this not in jest but in all sincerity for the salvation of your soul and your family’s.
One cannot have it both ways. If your faith takes the number of the elect to mean that and nothing more than it must accept these three details about the elect 144,000 literally. In addition to these three details in regards to the elect 144,000, one who reads Revelation from start to finish finds that the passages regarding the 144,000 cannot be taken only literally because they conflict with other passages found in Revelation. For example, before there is any mention of the elect 144,000, who remember must be Jewish male virgins, there is mention of 24 elders worshipping the Lamb, twelve of whom we later learn are the twelve Apostles of Jesus. Revelation 21: 14 says in reference to the New Jerusalem that “The wall of the city had twelve courses of stones as its foundation, on which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” How can Peter, the head Apostle, be the foundation of the New Jerusalem when he was previously married, and, therefore, did not meet all of the requirements for being counted among the elect 144,000. Another passage that conflicts with the elect 144,000 is found in the chapter that first mentions the 144,000. After seeing the elect 144,000, John writes that he “had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue.” (Revelation 7:9) He goes on to say that “They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. They cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation comes from our God, who is seated on the throne, and from the Lamb.” (Revelation 7: 9-10) This innumerable multitude is clearly in heaven, being before the throne of God, and have clearly gained salvation as seen by their appearance, white robes and palm branches symbolize joy and victory, and through their words of praise to God. Clearly, John did not want his readers to take the number of the 144,000 literally as the number of those who would at the end of all things share in God’s salvation.
Besides the many passages in Revelation that conflict with the literal understanding of the elect 144,000, the most impressive refute towards this issue is not found in Revelation but in the Gospel of John, which he wrote after the Book of Revelation. Before His passion and death, Christ in order to ease the troubled hearts of His Apostles, including Peter, says, “In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be.” (Jn 14: 1-3) Now as mentioned above if the elect 144,000 is taken literally than Peter being previously married cannot be counted among the elect, and Christ lied right to Peter’s face about preparing a place for him.
In regards to your comment that most Christian religions don’t teach much from Revelation, I present to you the Catholic Church, which is “the pillar and foundation of truth.” (1 Tim 3:15) The Catholic Church, throughout the centuries, has made use of the Book of Revelation by not only reading passages from it at the celebration of Mass during certain days of the year, but also through incorporating many of the words and elements of Revelation directly into the liturgy of each and every Mass. The title given to Christ some 28 times in Revelation, that is the Lamb of God, is said by the faithful and the priest during Mass at numerous times in adoration of Jesus, who is truly present in the Eucharist. Altars found in many Catholic Churches around the world have within them relics of saints and martyrs, which of course is a direct allusion to Revelation 6:9, “When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God.” Another incorporation of the Book of Revelation in the Mass can be seen in the use of incense in the liturgy of a High Mass as a sign of adoration for the Word of God and Jesus in the Eucharist, who is the Lamb of God. This use of incense parallels the use of incense by the elders in adoration of the Lamb in heaven. (Revelation 5:8) There is a rich abundance of the Book of Revelation in the liturgy of the Mass, but, my fingers are about to fall off as you can tell by the duration of this response. If you wish to know more about the incorporation of Revelation in the Mass, there is one book that stands above the rest and that is “The Lamb’s Supper” by Dr. Scott Hahn, whose credentials speak for themselves.
As my response finally comes to its end, there is one more issue I wish to address. In reading Revelation one day from start to finish, I came across an astounding proof clearly attesting to the equality of God the Father, who is the Almighty, and Jesus Christ. In Revelation 1:8, God says, “I am the Alpha and Omega, says the Lord God, “the one who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty.” Now, clearly the speaker of these words is God the Father or Yahweh, who is the Almighty. God is the first and the last and there is no other before Him. I know your probably thinking, “OKAY AND THAT MEANS?,” but what makes this passage astounding is another passage found at the end of Revelation. Before I get to that, I want to establish the fact that Jesus Christ is to come again at the Second Coming, a truth seen in the words of Christ at the end of Revelation, “The one who gives this testimony says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” (Revelation 22:20) This belief in Jesus’ Second Coming was also the belief of John and the early Christians as seen by John’s own response to Christ’s closing words, “Amen! Come Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:20) Now with the truth that Jesus Christ is the One to come already established, I present to you Revelation 22: 12-13, “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds. I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Now if I am not mistaken, Jesus Christ, who is the One to come, is declaring through the same words used by the Almighty in the beginning of Revelation that He is God. For who else can be the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end but God? For if Christ was created by God the Father, who is the Almighty mentioned in Revelation, how than can Christ declare to be the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end?
“Peace to all of you who are in Christ"
(Peter 5:14)
Joachim
On a side note, it is interesting to point out that both God, the Almighty, and Christ say They are coming. How can this be reconciled if John at the end of Revelation only says, “Come Lord Jesus!” and not “Come God the Father and Lord Jesus.” John clearly held to the belief of a Trinitarian God, understanding that God the Father and Jesus are both one and the same God, and thus he prayed in earnest, “Come, Lord Jesus!”
Posted by Joe at February 15, 2005 9:59 AM | TrackBack |
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Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe the 144,000 people to be the only ones who will be saved. The 144,000 are the special ones who get to be with God in heaven, but everyone else who is saved with be with Christ in the new earth, the destination of most people who will be resurrected. Then everyone who isn't saved will be annihilated, and there's no conscious torment in hell. So most of your argument doesn't really address what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. Most of them don't expect to be in the 144,000. They simply expect to be in the resurrection.
Hardly anyone I know takes the statement about being Jews undefiled with women to mean virgin men who are physically Jews. The JWs are in agreement on this. Most interpreters take it to refer to those viewed as sinless because of Christ, and all those viewed as sinless because of Christ. The JWs take a different interpretation, thinking it refers to an elite bunch among the Watchtower Society.
The number is clearly symbolic, referring to 12 tribes X 12 apostles for the 144 and then 10X10 for the measurements of the holy of holies, symbolizing purity. The Watchtower interpretation is wrong on that count, but the other issues you're raising aren't really a problem for them.
Posted by: Jeremy Pierce at February 23, 2005 10:24 AMJeremy,
I take it from your comments that you, yourself, are not a Jehovah Witness but a Christian. I appreciate your clarification of what the Jehovah Witnesses believe about salvation. In regards to my saying that if the elect 144,000 is only taken literally than only that specific number of persons can attain salvation, I only meant that this select number can only attain true salvation. I’m sure you understand. My and the Catholic Church’s belief is that salvation is being in union with God in heaven and sharing in His glory for all eternity. Therefore, when I said “saved” I meant true salvation not some absurd belief that a select few attain salvation in heaven with God and the rest attain a lesser form of salvation here on good old Mother Earth. Now, be honest and tell me that you see how ridiculous this belief of the Jehovah Witnesses actually is. I’m mean they made it up to fit their literal understanding of the elect 144,000. Do you not see the hypocrisy of the Jehovah Witnesses’ belief that the elect 144,000 must be taken literally and not symbolically? First of all, they profess that this number of the elect found in Revelation must be taking literally and those are all the special ones who will be with God in heaven. However, they profess that the details of the elect 144,000, Jewish, males, and virgins, must be symbolic! If the Jehovah Witnesses cannot see the hypocrisy of accepting a passage as literal, yet denying the literal meaning of its context, then heaven help them. Who gave them the authority to determine what is literal and what is symbolic anyways? Despite their illogical system of having it both ways, I’ll explain to you why the Jehovah Witnesses tip toe around this issue. They know they cannot literally accept the details of the elect 144,000 because it would mean only Jewish male virgins could enjoy salvation in heaven. They also know that Peter, who was previously married, could not be counted among the elect 144,000 if the details were taken literally, and, consequently, Christ lied to his head Apostle’s face when he said, “In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be” (Jn 14:1-3). Now to all you Jehovah Witnesses out there, I want you to notice that Christ used the word, “many,” when he was speaking about dwelling places in His Father’s house (heaven). If Christ according to your faith is a god, do you not think that the use of the word, “many,” by a god would be a much more indefinite number of rooms than just a meager amount of room for 144,000 elect persons? In human terms alone, the number of 144,000 is a paltry number when thinking of the span of mankind’s existence. I mean more persons tragically died at the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan than the number of persons that your faith believes will be counted among the elect in heaven. Does this belief of yours not seem utterly outlandish? When instructing the crowds about the Beatitudes, did not Christ say, “Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you falsely because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you” (Matt. 5:11-12)? The Christian Martyrs in the early centuries, who were persecuted and butchered because of their belief in Christ, amount by themselves to a much greater number than just 144,000! With this fact brought to the light, how can you, Jehovah Witnesses, say that only 144,000 will be in heaven when the number of Martyrs in the early centuries following Christ’s death alone far surpasses the number of 144,000? Furthermore, all the righteous Jewish Prophets, all the Christian Martyrs throughout the ages, and anyone who simply endured persecution because of their belief in Christ is guaranteed heaven by Christ!
As far as the Jehovah Witnesses’ disbelief of hell but the belief in the annihilation of unfaithful servants, what can I say? First of all, without using any passages from scripture to refute this point of the Jehovah Witnesses’ doctrine, I will use simple logic. If those who do what is pleasing in the sight of God inherit eternal happiness than why do those who do evil in the sight of God get off the hook so easy by being annihilated at the last judgment? Does it not make sense that God, who is all-just, would eternally reward those who do His will and eternally punish those who do not? Doesn’t it seem only fitting? I don’t know about you guys, but if I had the choice between eternal separation from God, who is the source of all happiness, or total and complete annihilation, I would without a doubt choose to end my sad and miserable existence than endure the alternative. Besides simple logic, there are Scripture passages that reference the everlasting torment of hell or Gehenna. I will use three of these that I find to be relevant to the matter of eternal punishment in hell. First, in Jesus’ parable of the wedding feast, He says of the man not wearing a wedding garment (symbolic of his good deeds), “Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth” (Matt. 22:13). The second passage I will refer to comes from good old Revelation, “The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Rev.20: 10). Now, all you Jehovah Witnesses out there are probably saying, “So, what’s the big deal! The Devil, the beast, and the false prophet suffer eternally in the pool of fire and sulfur.” However, if one reads verse 15 of the same chapter in Revelation, they will discover that, “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.” If the Devil, the beast, and the false prophet, who are cast into the pool of fire and sulfur, suffer forever and ever than why won’t those whose names are not written in the book of life not suffer forever and ever, since they too are cast into the same pool of fire?
Now in regards to the other issues I’m raising that are not a problem for the Jehovah Witnesses, I would like to know how they’re not a problem. What is the Jehovah Witnesses’ refute for the Alpha and Omega passages at the beginning and end of Revelation, which clearly affirm that Christ declares equality with God, the almighty? What about my response (that the Catholic Church incorporates the Book of Revelation into its liturgies more than any other religion, to Ed’s claim that he was attracted to the Jehovah Witnesses because they unlike most Christian religions, make use of the Book of Revelation?
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.”
(Philemon 1:25)
Joachim
Okay since your are not a JW, how could you possibly know with any amount of certainty what they believe, think,or accept. You have simply proven that you are most certainly ignorant to the teachings of JWs. Learn a little more, get the facts straight, then make a decision to accept or not accept. But don't blindly bash with out solid understanding or knowledge! For it is better thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!
Posted by: It Does not Matter at March 21, 2005 12:20 PM"It Does not Matter",
If we're wrong, please point out where and how, rather than just throwing out a blind assertion that we're wrong.
By the way, this is based upon documents put out by the JW church, so it's almost impossible for you to suggest that we are "ignorant" of these teachings when it comes from your mouth.
I look forward to your explanation of how this post mischaracterizes what the JW's teach.
God bless,
Jay
"It does not matter", don't blindly bash with out solid understanding or knowledge! For it is better thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!
Posted by: James at April 5, 2005 11:34 PMPlease do not take offense at my Christian brother.
Does not the Bible itself say not to call anyone a fool?
I have a larger question that I would like to share.In regards to the Jehova's Witnesses, who are indeed entitled to and without condemnation from us earthly sinners as God passes judgment. First, we must remove the log from our own eye.I appologize to the Jehova's Witnesses on behalf of Christianity. The choice of Faith belongs to each of us on our own. Just between God and him or herself.
The question is in reference to John 1:1 (The Gospel of John)"In the beginning was the word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Then continuing to John 1:14 (the same Gospel of John) "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,full of grace and truth"
John 14:6 " Jesus said to him,"If you had known Me,you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.""
Then John 14:9 and 10
(Jesus is answering Philip's request that Jesus show him the Father)"Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'show us the Father'?
14;10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?" and continues...
The most compelling scripture in my opinion is Mark 12:36 "For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:'The Lord said to my Lord,"Sit at My right hand.Till I make your enemies Your footstool"'
VS.12:37 "Therefore David himself calls Him 'Lord'; how then is He then his Son?"
He references this passage from
Psalms 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Clearly God is speaking to another that is also Himself.
Again I refer to John 1:1 in this verse where it say's "and the Word WAS God"
This is saying to me that Jesus IS God.
I pray that wisdom and understanding will come to those that seek it.
Peace to all whatever beliefs or faiths you share.
JW's believe that 144,ooo is a literal # because it is contrasted with a "great crowd which could not be numbered" in Revelation 7:9. And in Matthew 22:14 Jesus said "Many are invited, but few are chosen". The 144,000 are not jews, the tribes listed in Revelation 7:4-8 do not match those in Numbers, chapter 1. Galatians 3:26-29 mentions there aren't jews or greeks in union With Christ. Also Romans 2:28,29. It's interesting to note David did not go to heaven (Acts 2:34)neither did John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11) The comment in Revelation 14:4 about being virgins is symbolic, the Bible doesn't prohibit marriage (1 Timothy 3:2;4:1,3). The women in that verse could be organizations, religions, goverments (Revelation 17:5;James 4:4) See also 2 Corinthians 11:2 and Ephesians 5:25-27.
Posted by: jeff at April 21, 2005 5:54 PMWhat would you say is right about the 144k
Because acording to the scritures.
Reading every single one, Jehovan Wittnesses Make trully sense.
It's easy to see that would be confusing.
Just like things simple like marriage and the catholic Church exclude themselfs of, thats a missundersthanding right there.
But the bad treescannot give good fruits, the truth religion is the only one that will stand.
the time will come, and lets hope everyone it's making theyr right choices.
Because as i can see in the beguinning of this page.
There are lots of Bad tree out there.
And they will be cut off and throw in the fire.
reading most of this a my attetion being draw to learn more, because it make sense.
Preview the Book that is the Jehovah's Witnesses Worst Nightmare!
The Book Titled: "JESUS THE LORD OF GLORY"
On The Website: www.jesusthelordofglory.com
Author: Rev. Donald E. Battle, Sr.
What does the book have to do with this topic. It's just a plug. Answer my post. This is a blog not a forum for advertising books. 2 Corinthians 2:17: "we are not peddlers of the word of God as many men are, but as out of sincerity, yes, as sent from God, under God’s view, in company with Christ, we are speaking. "
Posted by: jeff at May 17, 2005 3:56 PMThe antichrist? Simple ,its not the followers of
the Roman Catholic Church but the leaders in the
Vatican who control the hearts and minds of their
followers. The blind lead the blind as usual.
*sigh* keep lurking keep lurking, argh ...
Karl,
Here you said it's the Vatican, in another thread you said it's the RCC who's the anti-Christ. Which is it? If you must say something, please refrain from confusing others. It would help if you made up your mind first and double check it against any uncharitable motives or sudden urges of hatred towards others who's faith is consistent with each other. We follow a proper structure Karl, like every sound structure, it needs a good foundation. Like a good army, it needs a proper command, but you my friend, are like a hired gun who doesn't even know who you're fighting for. Stop sniping and back up your view, with charity mind you!. Be like Thomas and SandT@, they're great. And of course we want all of you to be like Jay in your own beautiful way.
Dear Christians,
It is so wonderful to find such sites as yours that work to spread the wonderful news of salvation. But as we grow and obtain more clear understanding of God's word, we should walk in that brighter light.
And this is what I want to share with you….a more fuller understanding of that special group ~ The 144,000
The Bible is very clear about them, therefore this is a Bible-based conclusion upon the topic of the 144,000 of Revelation chapter 14…verifying each ideal, thought and conclusion with the Lord through prayerful questioning1.
This group of saints ~ the 144,000 was foretold in the Old Testament,
ISAIAH 26:
19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
ISAIAH 56:
3 ¶ Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I [am] a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
JEREMIAH 2:
3 Israel [was] holiness unto the LORD, [and] the firstfruits of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the LORD.
Key Words: men, arise (resurrection), eunuchs, Israel, firstfruits, an everlasting name
Christ states that men (past tense) have made themselves virgins for the Lord,
MATTHEW 19:12
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it].
came into being in the Gospels
MATTHEW 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
and revealed to us in the Revelation.
REVELATION 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
The 144,000 ~ “The everlasting name” - Key word!
REVELATION 14:
1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Key Words: men, eunuchs(virgins)
As you already know, this is actually a group composed of all virgin men who had lived their lives here on this earth in a virtuous manner for the Lord, obeying all the ten commandants while never had married.
Key word: Israel
The members of the 144,000 could only have been redeemed from among those men who were descendants from the sons of Jacob, but lived and died before Christ's resurrection. It is very fitting how the true first fruits were redeem from among the only group of people who were given and celebrated the first fruits ritual.
EXODUS 23:
15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty:)
16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, [which is] in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.
17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD.
Therefore, no one alive today nor to be born in the future can be a part of this group
~ the 144,000.
Key word: Firstfruits
Christ's resurrection qualified him as being in the first fruits before God.
I CORINTHIANS 15:
20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Key word: resurrection
In order for the 144,000 to share in this title with Christ, they had to be the ones who shared in His resurrection as well, and they are classified as first fruits in Revelation 14.
*** Therefore, there will be no secret rapture. There was just a failure to consider those who were risen at Christ's resurrection. ***
MATTHEW 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
REVELATION 14:
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Even though we ~ non Israelites ~ are spiritually grafted in the family of Abraham, we are not, as Abraham was not, placed within a particular tribe of Israel.
GALATIANS 3
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
For this tribe categorizing took placed 3 generations after Abraham in which Revelation 7:4-8 gives a more detailed description of the make-up of the 144,000 and the tribes they belong to.
In conclusion, it is clear to see that the 144,000 are with Christ in heaven when they receive the seal of God in their foreheads. The placing of the sealing of God is done to all of His children at the same time which could explain why the 144,000 received theirs at that moment of time in the future and not when they were resurrected.
REVELATION 7:
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
This sealing of God's people is needful not only before the winds held by the four angels are let loose, but also a necessity for the protection from the events that are foretold in the timeframe of the seventh seal of Revelation chapter 8.
Important Note: the events of the seventh seal as well as the seventh plague of the seven last plagues are to take place after the second resurrection at which time the New Jerusalem along with the Saints will already be down here upon this earth.(Revelation 3:12, 21:2) The Biblical-proof of such has not been expounded upon in the contents of this letter.
I thank you for your prayerful consideration. I always enjoy studying God's word.
May God Bless,
Pamela
1EXODUS 28:30
30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.
It's hard to believe in anything anymore , catholic or jehovahs witness . I hear each side call the other liar , maybe both lie ? I'd like to know more about how God is Christ , and how this trinty works . Personally I see a zealot as a potential murderer , and often one who will say anything to win for the god of their religion . History backs me up on that score , and when I hear something as absurd as "doesn't it make perfect sense that god would torture souls in hell for ever"because it's just I get a little worried , not so much about going to hell , but being murdered by a bunch of zealots . Why do christians seem so murderous sometimes ? Are the good souls in heaven going to come watch the torture on boring days? Why does this make sense?
Posted by: charles a kinsey at July 26, 2005 3:42 AMthe trinity that you want to know about that you don't understand doesn't make sence because its not a bible teaching. The trinity was adopted by the Cathlic Church in the 3rd century at the council of nicea by emporer Constantine. He new nothing about Christ it was so involved with politics much like many false churches today( Jesus said to be no part of the world). The Trinity was not even discused before this in the first or second century. But Jesus fortold this when he said that wolves would enter into the flock and mislead many, thus the start holy church and the dark ages where this church burned people alive for translating bibles into languages that the common people could read. The trinity doctine came fron false religion that was from egypt and greece and babylon. John 1:1 can be translated either way word was god or word was a god. Greek does not have words for "a" thus this verse must not contradict the rest of the bible. Jesus said he wished to do the will of his father. He said the father is greater than I am. He said we were to be in subjection to him as he was in subjection to his father.
Posted by: KC at October 5, 2005 3:23 AMHelp me to understand? Do Catholics take Rev. 14:4 literally. Do they believe 144,000 are jewish males and virgins or do they believe that the virgins refer to the different churches. I am so confused. Somebody Catholic explain this to me please.
Posted by: redmond at November 6, 2005 11:32 AMKC,
"The trinity was adopted by the Catholic Church in the 3rd century... The Trinity was not even discused before this in the first or second century."
There are HEAPS of references to the divinity of Christ which predate Nicea, for example:
Ignatius of Antioch
"[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).
"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).
Justin Martyr
"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).
Irenaeus
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
Posted by: fidens at November 7, 2005 3:35 AMI must say the JW version re trinity being false seems more logical.
My friend showed me Acts 12:22 and Acts 28:6 where the King James Version says 'a god' yet it is the same greek word as john 1:1 which leaves out the 'a'.
If jesus is god - who resurrected him? God the father ? - so are they seperate people ?
why does Mark 13:32 say only the Father knows ---what happened to the holy spirit??
Posted by: simon at December 21, 2005 11:32 AMHi Simon
What faith are you by the by?
Your friend has introduced you to a very common error in translating Greek into English; especially in regards to the greek word theos. You don't use the definite article with the predicate noun in this case. People who do this mess up the true translation and end up with John 1:1 saying "and the Word was a God." Instead of the true translation "the Word was God."
This cursed translation flies fully in the face of the 1st Commandment and Isiah 43:10 "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
You may feel free to check this with a Greek pastor...or if fortunate enough to visit Greece check out the fact that they are all Jehovahs or Way intl....HO HO HO...NOT! They are Orthodox and Catholic because they indeed can translate that passage correctly...it is no surprise that the Way and Jehovahs are both products of the good ole non greek speaking USA...both groups use their own bibles and translations that are always changing. If you take a Jehovah bible from each decade they progressively remove more as they find references to Jesus as worshipped or Jesus as God or Jesus implied as God.
By the way since we are on the true Greek ask your buddy about this note on catholic.com
In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!").
Now Christ was smote for not giving the true glory to God? Tom was smote? Christ denies Tom? Tom says he was kidding?
No we see in vs 29 "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
In the Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ
Believe brother believe
wwwo
Posted by: when we were one at December 23, 2005 12:40 PMIts interesting to read all these posts and see the ignorance amongst us. That whay it is great to be a catholic ninja turtle. For all you folks struggling to make sense of the holy trinity, picture the trinity as Time. The Past, The Present, and the Future. All three are completely different from each other but one. If you take just one out of the equation you have none. Thus we have the Father, the Son, & the Holy Spirit.I like to use this analogy along with verses from the prophet Isaiah on a cult called the Mormons who also are very confused about who or what God is. May God Bless!
In Christ and Mary,
=\
Be open-minded guys!
Well
I stopped reading after a while, lol...
but,
You need to understand, before you ask questions and start doubting this and that about religions, that YOU, most likly, did not, view it from the source,
How the scholars translated it.
How they interpreted it.
It all comes from the origonal scrolls.
And basically,
for catholics,
it all started lil after 300 C.E.
With emperor Constantine.
Constantine, only started the trinity cause he wanted to settle the debate on religion.
He wasn't even really religious back then.
Supposely, he had some vision with the cross or something.
And the organization of Jehova Witness's
started,
in the late 1800's from C.T.Russell.
well, from a group of people.
In which he was one of the annointed (144,000)
That God, (Jehova)used his holy spirit to have Russell translate the scriptures the "true" way.
That it was time.
Now I'm a Jehova Witness
But,
I'm Open-Minded
In which what God wants you to be.
I was born as one, but didn't care about it.
And When I started to care about religion again.
I learned about othere relgious beliefs too.
You should, ultimatly, choose which one makes more sence to you.
Jehova Witness's just help you out, atleast it's what they're suppose to do.
And even though some may not, Keep in mind, we're not perfect.
People learn at their own speed.
And in the end of it all,
JW's made more sence.
Most of their beliefs can be shown with history, Simple Enlish in which how it's suppose to make sence in the bible (Ex: John 1:1... where the article "A" is suppose 2 be placed in the end as "a god" not just "god", in most Christian Bibles. They give some English lesson about it in the trinity article) and they use the bible, the main thing.
But,
It's more like a Puzzle.
Untill you put every piece together,
then, and only then, will it make sence.
Last thing,
The main thing that gets me sticking to being a Jehova Witness is:
The prophecy inwhich C.T.Russell translated at Daniel 12:12 or 12:11.
Days were signified as years. And had some date in the bible in which it started...
in which lead up to the year 1914; The start of World War I.
The start of the End.
Keep in mind, this was translated in teh late 1800s.
Some JW's around that time took it the wrong way, and thought it was the end of the world.
But, God did tell Adam and Eve that, If you eat from this/that tree you will positivly die.
They didn't die right away, they began to die.
So despite waht I hear about this and that, that this religion can proove this, and this one can proove that.
JWs do make sence with everything, you just need to study with one, one in which knows A LOT about the bible.
K,
take care :)
Will,
Actually the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus in Matthew 16:18. If you go back and study some history you'll realize that there is a clear and indistinguishable Catholic church from the beginning of the Church - the Apostle Peter was the first Pope.
The Jehovah's Witnesses have been wrong about virtually everything - please look into some of the claims they've made. In particular, they keep claiming the world will end on such-and-such a date, but it never happens (so they just pick another date in the future). How can you trust someone who has been wrong so many times to create a church for you?
Also, how do you answer the Apostle Thomas' declaration to Jesus, "My Lord and my God"?
God bless,
Jay
Well I can't answer everything, Cause I don't know everything.
But I'm sure another JW of higher intellect could.
From what I know I will tell, and from what you ask I will seek ^.-
Put a Bishop or the pope of Catholics and someone of the annointed (144,000) of JW's together and you'll have a strong conversation right tehre. =)
...All of this below, I actually read about the day before I saw your post which is kinda funny, so enjoy...
Who was the rock that Jesus indicated at Matthew 16:18, Peter or Jesus? The context shows that the point of the discussion was the identification of Jesus as "the Christ, the Son of the living God", as Peter himself confessed. Logically, therefore, Jesus himself would be that slid rock foundation of the church, no Peter, who would later deny Christ three times.
-Matthew 26:33-35, 69-75
How do we know that Christ is the foundation stone? By Peter's own testimony, when he wrote: "coming to him as to a living stone, rejected, it is true, by men, but choosen, precious, with God...For it is containted in Scripture: 'Look! I am laying in Zion a stone, chosen, a foundation cornerstone, precious; and no one exercising faith in it will by any means come to disappointment.'" Paul also stated: "And you have been buit up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone."
-1 Peter 2:4-8; Ephesians 2:20
There is no evidence in Scripture or history that Peter was regarded as having primacy among his peers. He makes no mention of it in his own letters, and the other three Gospels -including Mark's (apparently related by Peter to Mark)-do not even mention Jesus' statement to Peter.
-Luke 22:24-26; Acts 15:6-22; Galatians 2:11-14.
There is not even any absolute proof that Peter was ever in Rome. (1 Peter 5:13) When Paul visited Jerusalem, "James and the Cephas [Peter] and John, the ones who seemed to be pillars," gave him support. So at that time Peter was one of at least three pillars in the congregation. He was not a "pope," nor was he known as suck or as a primate "bishop" in Jerusalem.
-Galatians 2:7-9; Acts 28:16,30,31
~"Mankind's Seach for God"
About your 2nd paragraph:
Umm, Like I said, some JW's took it the wrong way, the year of 1914. But since that year Things in the world have dramatically gotten worse. More "natural disters"
The start of Nuclear weapons, :O
and will only get worse.
3rd part,
No idea, lol, where in the Bible does it say that?...
Pope comes from the Greek word "Papas" meaning "father".
Greeks had a HUGE influence of the Jews B.C.E. and C.E, as well as the Romans.
Things like Christmas started from Pegan ideas and Pegan God worship or any other Holiday.
Look it up if you don't believe me.
Every single Catholic or whoever that celebrates these holidays, that arn't JW's, that I have talked to or known, had no idea where the holidays origonated from.
Christmas was actually started from Constantine, in around 300-400 C.E... They had a sun god and a water god, and thought of Jesus as the Sun God, and something like the baptism to be the water god. That's how Constantine viewd it, and he was the one who summoned the meeting of Nicea, meeting in which the 1st Pope did not even attend. =/
If you look deep enough, in encyclopedias, you'll find out this information, and not from random "Christian" web sites. =/
But I may not be 100% correct on the water god part of it. lol
This is kinda off that topic, right here...
I mean come on now, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08329a.htm
Catholic encyclopedia that has GOD'S NAME in it, yet Catholic bibles, now and days, don't have.
=/
http://www.eliyah.com/tetragrm.html
YHWH - Lord???
no
lol
YHWH - Yahweh!!!
yes
:]
Yaweh means Jehova in English.
And back then A.C.E.
The Jews thought out the name of God too be to sacred to say out loud, so they replaced it with the word "Adonai", which basically means Lord. as a "Sir" name, not an actual persons or beings real name.
Exodus 6:3 used Adonai in the Catholic Douay Version.
And now and days, I guess Catholics just use Lord.
Which isin't even a name.
Eradicating Gods name more and more as time continues. =/
And actually, God's name was 1st used in the 1500's by I think it was a Latin Scholar.
All of that, I'm willing to bet, I could go on the street and ask like 100 people, and mabe 5% MIGHT, "might!!!" know it, lol.
Cause I know that's another thing people just don't know which is really important in general.
But just
Call up your local Kingdom Hall, and ask someone to study with you. You'll get to ask all the questions you want, and will take under an hour.
Or just tell them you're very curious about a lot of JW's beliefs.
Take care
:)
Mr. Kellogs,
I will pray for your conversion because someone lied....to youuuuuuuuu. Gods name is Yahweh. In the toungue of Israelites the sound Je does not exist. Why do you think we say AleuYA and not AleJe? Keep praying and youll see that The holy trinity which is God will guide you home. Ephesians 4:5-6 "there is ONE LORD, ONE FAITH,
ONE BAPTISM; Ther is ONE GOD and FATHER of ALL people, who is LORD of ALL, works through ALL, and is in ALL". So open your eyes, your mind, and your heart to the ONE true Faith that Christ himself founded!
In Jesus and Mary
Esaul Viramontes
Will,
I have met with various JWs from my local Kingdom Hall, including some elders...I have yet to meet one who could justify the mistranslations that occur in the New World Translation, specifically in John's Gospel (Jn 1:1). Care to take a shot?
Secondly, another question that they often can't answer, when was your Church founded and what justified its founding?
In Christ,
Joe
For the 1st person.
Like I said.
Yahweh is translated into Jehovah in English.
What do you want me to say? lol
And seeing how Gods name is Yahweh, so why do catholics remove his name from the bible now?
I've also read that, the real pronunciation of his name has long been forgotten. So techinally, no one knows if they're saying his name correctly. (That information came from Encyclopedias.)
With Jesus, do you think they called him Jesus when he was alive?
no, of course not
The word Jesus is the Latin form of the Greek Iesous, which in turn is the transliteration of the Hebrew Jeshua, or Joshua, or again Jehoshua, meaning "Jehovah is salvation."
K?
You said that Christ founded the faith.
The faith in which he tells us to worship God.
God being Yahweh, right? or Jehova as the English translation.
So why would you worship Jesus? If he tells us not to worship him, but God.
And also, who do you think people like Moses or Abraham worshiped before Jesus was born?
JESUS??? lol
Exodus 6:3
You belive in Yahweh, so his name should be in that scripture, or Adonai, which isin't even a real name, or Lord, which again, is not a beings name. So it should be Yahweh or Jehova. GODS NAME, :}
But about Ephesians 4:5...
I mean I, ME, am not sure if they're refering as Jesus as the only Lord, or just God, but I'll get back to you on that.
Keep this in mind though:
JW's do call Jehova Lord, that is true.
Our Lord Jehova.
But Lord, only means a PERSON or BEING with higher power. The Lord Jehova, or the Lord Jesus Christ, they have higher power over us.
You can say Lord by itself, but that only means "the being with higher power," The almighty.
Still, not a persons or beings REAL name.
Like I said though, I'll get back to you on that scripture.
I wish I knew so many more scriptures, then I could show you more.
But show me this and that, and I'll try the best of my knowledge, and to ask smarter ones about what you have to ask, and to answer it.
Ephesians 1:2 from the Catholic Douay Version...
"Grace be to you, and peace from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ"
GOD, the father, being Yahweh
The Lord, Christ JESUS, being his only begoten son
You can try and proove some kind of trinity if you want, but, I read a 30 page article on how baically, there is not Trinity.
30 pages, THIRTY! lol
I mean, when I first saw 30 pages, I was kinda in shock on how there could be so much information on prooving it false.
But I'll link you to it, :}
http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/index.htm
And obviously, it's from Jehova Witness's
But don't get all crazy, and start saying simple minded things,
Be open minded, and just start reading it :}
Thanks.
There are always questions, but, there are not always answers, unfortuanly.
John 1:1
read that trinity article
http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/index.htm
You'll see it in there about it somewhere in the middle towards the end, it'll talk about it.
But I suggest you read the entire thing.
Some of the paragraphs are kind of out of place.
lol, But I'll always check here incase there are more questions.
But, if you are so curious, like I said before,
Just call up your local Kingdom Hall, and ask for someone to study with you.
Ask em all the questions you want.
:}
Thanks
Well, yeah...
in Ephesians 4:5 they are refering to Jesus as the Lord.
It be hard for me to go indetail with you why,
cause I'm bad at explaing things on my own.
So It's best off you ask someone older and higher in knowledge about this that is a JW
ok?
But keep in mind
If that scripture were true, then it would contradict other scriptures in the bible.
And remember this
1 Corithians 8:4-6
Talks about there are many "gods" among heaven, but Only one true GOD, Jehovah or Yahweh
and one True Lord Jesus Christ.
In the New World Translation of the Holy Sciptures,
It'll use all capitols when it says "LORD Jehovah.
Signifying that he is the almighty lord, the almighty God.
Jesus is never ever, signified as "the almighty one" in the bible.
The Bible is basically a puzzle.
You have to put it allllllll together for it to make sence.
Even when there is only a couple pieces left in that puzzle. You may see the picture, but you won't know exactly what was suppose to be in that part of the puzzle.
So you can't just take this and that out of the bible with out knowning that book of the bible, and all the other books, who was talking, and who they were talking to and about.
Keep that in mind.
Thanks
Will
Thank you for sharing your JW faith with us here...I sense you are hearing the voice of the shepard.
"If this were true it would contradict scripture..." Will, I am sure you can check books of history...I know JW's can be un membered for going outside your given material so I appreciate the very fact that God has given you the strength to be here. See in your history books... even the "Da Vinci Code" that credit is given to 1 church and 1 church only for putting together all of current scripture. In putting this document together, the Catholic Church has always taught the 1)Divine inspiration of scripture and 2) Inerrancy of scripture. If you find a contradiction...you have interpreted incorrectly or have a poor translation or both. That is why there is 1 Tim 3:15 "...the church is the pillar and foundation of truth..." Here we see that there isn't a churches or private or personal, as many robbers would have you believe. Therefore a unified interpretation.
1 Cor 8:4 Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one...
I see no such gods as you are being mislead...goto the library and check out a Catholic even a Prot bible. I know you may not like it but... former JWs get pretty upset when they find that the NWT is constantly being modified to eliminate references to Christ as Lord or as God... If you can check them over the decades as some JW's have, you will see the differences...you may want to check with www.chnetwork.org they may have some human ex JW that can tell you more.
"You have to put the (bible) together to make sense." Only 1 church is given that authority. See above.
In Love
when we were one
Posted by: when we were one at April 24, 2006 2:05 PMI don't know what to say about the first paragraph besides that I heard the Da Vinci Code was a book of fiction from Scholars who translated the Holy Scriptures.
But doesn't make it false just cause someone says it.
I'm just saying what I've heard.
Also, I'm only 19 but, I Just don't know as much as lot other people do as you can see
1Cor: 4-6 Taken out of the Catholic Douay Ver.
4. But as for the meats that are sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5. For although there be that are called gods, either in heaven or on earth (for there be gods many, and lords many). 6. Yet to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
I may have said that wrong I guess. sorry
So as you can cleary see,
many are "called" gods.
But as it says, In heaven...
ONE god refered as the father
and
Jesus as the Lord.
I mean if people think Jesus is God
Then why would It not say, One God, Jesus Christ.
or anything relating as Jesus as god instead of two Distinct individuals.
I mean there are several Scriptures like that to.
SEVERAL
John 1:1 was rendered as how it looked, cause it was in Ancient Greek.
I posted up the Link on the How the trinity isin't true, read it, and it'll talk about John 1:1. (a couple posts up)
And if God doesn't have a name.
Then why in Exodus 6:3, does it "try" and give his name out, yet they put a title instead a proper name there?
YHWH
I'm tired right now, so I can't say anymore :\
sry
But yeah,
Catholic Encyclapedia said that Jesus name meant "Jehovah In salvation".
Hebrew name of Jesus.
Take care
Will,
I understand now what you were trying to say. You were trying to say there can be a god and a lord but separate entities.
As you note "if people think Jesus is God then why would it not say 'One God, Jesus.'"
I would say to you let us reverse that and ask... why does Christ not all over the place say "I am not God but a bunch of people in the future will want me to be so...don't follow them." In fact he does not deny the fact that he is. As has been noted above the correct Greek of Jn 20:28 has Thomas uttering "the Lord of me and the God of me." Again if it were not so then the Greeks who understand the full scope of Kione and Attic Greek would translate it as the robbers and thieves do.
Another common note by Arians: like JW, the Way, and most of all Islam... is ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.’" Mark 10:17-18... This is why Jesuits go 16-20 yrs of school...because you need to understand the context. Jesuits must study greek philosophy for 3 yrs minimum because that is what the world was at the time---Greek. The accepted method of deduction was the Socratic method (teaching by asking not by telling)...here is a summary from wikipedia
"A Socratic Dialogue can happen at any time between [two people] when they seek to answer a question [about something] answerable by their own effort of reflection and thinking [starting] from the concrete [asking] all sorts of questions [until] the details of the example are fleshed out [as] a kind of platform for reaching more general judgments"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method
Matt 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" ... another example of the Socratic method.
Will, in university you will see it...Prof's love to use it.
Anyway I have a ton of quotes like the above clearly pointing to the divinity of Christ if all you want is a load of scripture.
http://scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html
And you will be able to find a few on your end.
So what can help us find the truth? What can we look to?
1 Tim 3:15 is one source. But then you may claim that right for Arians. So how do we know who is the true Christian. Catholics or protesting christians?
History...we need to know what the original Christians taught. If we check a Christian source I would choose Ignatius of Antioch who says “We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin." Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (A.D. 110).
Ignatius was ordained by Peter and was taught by John the Beloved...so here we see exactly what John taught him about the Word. Ignatius was made the Bishop of Antioch the oldest church in the world an the first place that the word "Christian" is used (Acts 11:26). Since we know Ignatius was teaching this while John was still around why doesn't John ever write that we shouldn't listen to Ignatius he was a mistake.
If we reference Pliny the Younger who lived from 60-115 roughly and himself a Roman Senator under Domitian and Trajan...we see Pliny in charge of an inquisition of the 1st Christians. Pliny notes that these Christians, some under torture, reveal that they worship "Christ as God. (Letters 112)."
Now Pliny had lived under Nero's persecution and therefore at the time of Peter, Paul (James was beheaded in 56).... but what is going around here? Christ as God...Where is the letter denouncing this?
In Love
when we were one
Posted by: when we were one at May 1, 2006 4:42 PMReligion is to whatever makes more sence, in the end of it all.
I see all these things off the those sites, but there are also several other scriptures refering as Jesus not being the Almighty, Almighty God and as a seperate Individual.
I mean, it's also not like Jehovah Witness's just made up this name.
Jehovah is just the english way we pronounce it.
In other lands, there are several other ways you can say it. But No one knows the correct pronunciation of his name.
But even with Jesus, do you think that was his origonal name?
No
That's just the way we are use to saying it, in our language.
But getting back to the name Jehovah, There are several other bibles which contain his name, in other religions.
as in, the scholar , J. T. Russell, as well as others, who translated the srolls in the late 1800's, did not first come upon the name "Jehovah" from the Tetragrammaton: YHWH... In which they, I think, kind of started the group of what they call "Bible Students".
But I mean, Jehovah, the name, means something... meaning: "causing to become".
It's not just some randomly meaningless name.
The trinity, supposely, a teaching of the bible, is something taught to other Catholics, yet, it never talks about all 3 being one and/or with the word "trinity" being mentioned in the bible.
So thus being something taught out of the bible.
It's also something not to be fully understood but just to be taught and learned.
Yet, no one fully understands it.
Not Even the pope, as one of the popes clearly stated, as well as scholars who have translated the scrolls have said.
I don't know If I said that clear enough but,
No bible is word for word.
But all meaning the same.
In John 1:1, that was origonally written In ancient greek. And If you would like an English lesson on how It's missing a single letter, an article, as in "a", then go here...
http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/index.htm
and It'll show you the proper way in which It Is suppose to be translated Into english.
Whether you believe English Grammer or not, Is up to you.
God has a name
and he want's you to know his name
as it has said in the Holy Scriptures.
And if Jesus is his name,
then why does Jesus's Hebrew name mean:
"Jehovah (Yahweh "YHWH") In salvation"
Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me." In which what Jesus has said.
Himself, is upon himself?
The Spirit of God, being Jesus right? Is upon Jesus.
John 20:28... Then it goes on saying in the last verse, 31, that Jesus is the Son of God.
So, If he is God, as in the True Almighty God... It just doesn't make sence.
That's Why I said earlier that No one can fully Understand the Trinity.
It just doesn't make any sense to me.
Someone tried saying water is one but can be 3 different forms, a solid, gas or liquid, yet is still water.
I mean, yeah, but that doesn't really relate to the bible.
The Holy ghost or Spirit, is Gods active force.
There is no indication in the bible which clearly states that The Holy Ghost is God or vise versa.
I mean you say why didn't Jesus just say That many will think I am God. Mabe, It would have been better if that had happened, but, it would have completly removed the meaning of one of the things God has warned us about, about Other sects and branches starting. You just need to read all the scriptures clearly, and if still you think Jesus is THE GOD, then, I mean, there's not much more I can do. But learn more about JW's 1st, before you make that desicison, and learn our beliefs, the Propheceis we follow, which is what keeps A LOT off people in our faith, as well as me. ( I'll write it down next time, the main Prohpehcy that keeps me believing in Jehovah as God when I have time)
Just go or call up your Local Kingdom Hall and ask to study with a witness, or tell them you have many questions to ask or something.
And You'll be able to set up a bible study, and you can use your Catholic bible, and compare things if you want with the bible we use.
I mean, I don't know that much, so I don't want you to think, just cause I cant give you an answer for what you have to ask, doesn't mean someone else will, or that there is no answer for that.
Right now I'm tired and have other things to take care of, so I'm sorry If I can't answer everything.
So I just hope you call up and study with Fellow Jehovah Witness, for, There is no harm there.
Thanks
One more thing.
Can you show me any where in the bible where any of the Apostles, taught, about the "Holy Trinity"?
Any where, where any of them had mentioned, that, God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost/Spirt, are ONE?
That any where they had mentioned that, They are three different things, yet The same, being ONE?
Anything like that?
I mean, like I showed you there, with the link above this post, about the trinity.
That Link will explain, In DETAIL, on how the trinity doesn't make sencse, using the Holy Scriptures of several bibles, and History to proove that it is just fiction.
Just read it, please, I wish everyone to read it that knows and believes in the trinity.
It's an Open-minded kind of thing, and even though I'm a Jehovah Witness, I still read all the things that Catholics say about Jehovah Witness's, that to us, we know is not true.
And as one thing as I would read for anything you may ask for me to read, I would like you to read that article about the trinity.
This is the Propecy in which I was talking about before.
In which was translated and rendered before this year, 1914, even came around
All of this Is taken out of the new Book that was printed and published from Jehovah Witness's
entilted:
'What does the Bible really teach?'
1914-A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy
Decades in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914. What were these, and what evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?
As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations["the times of the Gentiles,"King James Version] are fulfilled." Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation-the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1,2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on "Jehovah's throne" as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah's rulership.
How and when, though, did God's rulership begin to be "trampled on bt the nations"? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. "Jehovah's throne" became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this 'trampling' go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekial said regarding Jerusalem's last king, Zedekiak: "Remove the turban, and life off the crown....It will certainly become no one's until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:26,27) The one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32,33) So the 'trampling' would end when Jesus became King.
When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: "Let seven times pass over it." -Daniel 4:10-16.
In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God's rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this 'trampling of Jerusalem' would be temporary-a period of "seven times." How long a period is that?
Revelation 12:6,14 indicates that three and a half times equal "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." "Seven times" would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. but the Gentile nations did not stop 'trampling' on God's rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem's fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekial 4:6, which speak of "a day for a year," the "seven times" would cover 2,520 years.
The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, "the appointed times of the nations" ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God's heavenly King. -Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13,14
Just as Jesus predicted, his "presence" as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments-war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God's heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of "the last days" of this present wicked system of things. -2 Timothy 3:1-5
Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd,
that's it.
Will,
Regarding your effluence of thought it flies in the face of Christ's apostle vicar: 1) 2 Pet 1:20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 2 Pt 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.
As Peter says here personal interpretation of scripture will lead to heresy and fragmentation of the church. Though I appreciate the hard work on conjecture it is forbidden. For as I have posted above this reponsibility lies with 1 church 1 Tim 3:15 and it is to be decided in council with the final declaration of the sitting Pope see Acts 15.
You have still not shown where you can historically or scripturally prove your church back to Christ... yet I can with mine... therefore you cannot be the church of Matt 16:18 therefore you are one of those unfortunately discussed in 2 Peter.
2) Regarding sad path you are being led down involving the trinity. You must again read the above passages and realize that those who escort you are themselves not authorized by scripture or tradition to be that church. But since you have some faith read on James' opinion of Faith in Christ. James 2:1 My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory...18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is ONE; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder.
The emphasis is from me on ONE for you asked. But you are mislead by poor translation on Jn 1... again the Greeks know Kione better than any american salesman... they have never translated as you do. See the Arian heresy of the 300 ad... that was ancient Greek! The arians said as you do that Jesus was a man only not God. Of the near 400 bishops at that time only 2 agreed with your interpretation after the Council of Nicea brought this all up... in ancient Greek.
But now you have a problem. Actual ancient Greek bishops who speak in that exact dialect disagreeing with a 19th century American salesman hmmmm...What did Peter have to say about this? 2 Pet 3:16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.
So now the ball is in your court...I have answered your questions answer any of mine...
1) Trace yourself back to the 1st century and prove continuity because Jesus promises that the church he founded would last until the end of time. He shows before He leaves that it is Peter that is to feed the sheep and strengthen the other apostles as the devil sifted them. Prove through history your connection.
2) Prove your authority to interpret scripture and disobey 2 Peter.
3) Since ancient Greeks disagree with your interpretation of Jn 1 what are you thinking?
Please readers be hard working in loving prayers in regards to Will and his faith... I beg you to pray for him...remember salvation is via grace.
Conversion is rarely like the road to Damascus and our brother has been gripped by a thief and a robber. We need to call the shepard.
In Love
when we were one
Posted by: when we were one at May 5, 2006 11:48 AMSorry Will
I forgot my 4th line of questioning. 4) Where does Jesus say he is not God? 5) Where does an apostle say Jesus is not God? 6) Where do 1st and 2nd century Roman Archives say that Christians did NOT worship Jesus as God? 7) Where did an apostle of the 12 or 1st century bishop write that Jesus was not to be worshipped as God or was not God for that matter?
In Love
when we were one
Posted by: when we were one at May 5, 2006 1:09 PMWill,
You posed the question above:
"Can you show me any where in the bible where any of the Apostles, taught, about the "Holy Trinity"?
Any where, where any of them had mentioned, that, God, Jesus and The Holy Ghost/Spirt, are ONE?
That any where they had mentioned that, They are three different things, yet The same, being ONE?
Anything like that?
The answer is a resounding YES, and here is just a sampling of verses.
Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means "God is with us." In Matthew 1:23, this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.
Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM." In John 8:58, Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.
John 1:1, John writes, "the Word was God." (This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ's divinity). However in the Jehovah's bible, the passage was changed to "Word was a god." This is a clear attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, and it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).
Luke 1:11, Mary accepts Elizabeth's declaration "the Mother of my Lord" = the Mother of my God (Elizabeth used the word "Adonai" which means "Lord God").
Acts 5:3-4,9, Peter tells Ananias that he lied to the Holy Spirit, and that he has not lied to men, but to God (the Holy Spirit).
In addition Will we have the Church Fathers who were taught directly by the Apostles or by their direct successors who attest to the Trinity as well. Here is a sampling:
"We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man." Tatian the Syrian, Oration Against the Greeks, 21 (c. A.D. 175).
"And thus there appeared another beside Himself. But when I say another, I DO NOT MEAN THAT THERE ARE TWO GODS, but that it is only as light of light, or as water from a fountain, or as a ray from the sun. For there is but ONE power, which is from the All; and the Father is the All, from whom cometh this Power, the Word. And this is the mind which came forth into the world, and was manifested as the Son of God." Hippolytus, Against the Heresy of One Noetus, 11 (A.D. 210).
"For Scripture as much announces CHRIST AS ALSO GOD, as it announces GOD HIMSELF AS MAN." Novatian, Concerning the Trinity, 11 (A.D. 235).
"But, since in Christ there is the fullness of the Godhead, we have herein a revelation of God the Father joining to raise us in Him Who died; and we must CONFESS THAT CHRIST JESUS IS NONE OTHER THAN GOD In all the fullness of the Deity." Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, 1:13 (A.D. 359).
"All those Catholic expounders of the divine Scriptures, both Old and New, whom I have been able to read, who have written before me concerning the Trinity, Who is God, have purposed to teach, according to the Scriptures, this doctrine, that THE FATHER, AND THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT imitate a DIVINE UNITY OF ONE AND THE SAME SUBSTANCE IN AN INDIVISIBLE EQUALITY; and therefore that they are NOT THREE GODS, BUT ONE GOD: although the Father hath begotten the Son, and so He who is the Father is not the Son; and the Son is begotten by the Father, and so He who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, Himself also CO-EQUAL with the Father and the Son, and pertaining to the unity of the Trinity." Augustine, On the Trinity, I:4,7 (A.D. 416).
Will as you can see the idea of the Trinity is clearly referenced in Scripture and obviously taught by the Apostles to their successors. In effect, I think the answer to your question has been satisfied. Read and explore these on your own and please be open to all truth wherever it may lead. Only in this way can we truly please God--because He IS truth and he will not lead you astray.
In Christ,
Matthew
I can't answer everything. For one, I'm only 19 and I'm still learning a lot.
And 2...
It's better off, you just go off and ask someone from the Kingdome Hall that is a Jehovah Witness, that's been one for quite some years now.
That be better.
The world is Under Satans influence right now.
Not Gods.
God can help you spiritually.
But not Physically.
Yes there are scriptures that lead you to think that Jesus could be the one true god.
But at the same time there are scriptures that lead you to believe that he is not the true God.
As why there are various religions such as Protestants or Jehovah Witness's that believe that Jesus Is not the Almighty God. But 2 distict Individuals.
But also that the trinity Is not taught in the Bible, but just made up, from assumptions.
Just go here...
http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/start.htm
and
http://www.watchtower.org/library/na/article_01.htm
I mean, we can go back and fourth throwing scriptures at one another.
But, If you read aLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL of those two articles. You'll understand more on why "we" aslong as other religions do not believe in the trinity.
And I know you just want me to kind of prove or show you why we don't believe it in detail right here, but, read that, and, that's it!
That is all you need to know.
I read everything you show me... do the same for me and read those two links... It'll take you some time, but, one will explain the trinity, and the other will explain the name of Jehovah and what It means, In DETAIL.
I mean
Jesus' name means "Jehovah in salvation"
Hallilujah means "Prise God" BUT, "jah", is short for Jehovah, so, "Praise Jehovah".
Things made up from the Hebrews/Jews.
I would love to just list everything down right here.
But just read those two articles. And you'll have basically, all your answers.
And the thing abour false prophecies,
That is true, It does warn you about that In the bible.
But none the less, This was translated from the Bible.
from different books.
and even If It's false, look at the huge thing that happened that took place. The first EVER, World War.
Also from that point on, Science has shown us that everything has gotten worse in the world.
Also, In Revolation, When the beast comes out of the water, goes back In, and then comes back out again, that was something that was translated into something which no other Relgion follows.
Signified the Start of the League of Nations, then it collapsed, then The United Nations formed. Another thing that was translated from the Bible, In which, other religions don't follow.
This was all translated before It ever took place, at the end of the 1800's.
Basically, God saw that It was time, so he used his Holy Spirit for this person, C.T.Russell, to translate it along with other bible students.
There's actually more to it.
Where I think they' were arrested.
But were let go for strange reasons, (Holy Spirit).
I mean, you obviously don't believe it, but, It's more mind blowing to have God chose a time before those event took place than after.
And If you wanna blind your self by "Ignorance", and not clearly understand the Bible, than there is literally nothing more I can do.
That Prophecy like I said before, for 1914( Couple posts up) Is what mainly kinda, gets people to become Worshipers of Jehovah.
Faith only goes so far.
They had Moses at that time.
Then Jesus.
And now, we have prophecies.
No more to say.
Either, I dont know the answer, or I can ask someone else.
But the questions are like non-stop, lol, which is reasonable.
Just go to a Kingdome Hall and ask someone who is a Jehovah Witness, and been one for a while now. It be best.
Take care.
Posted by: Will Kellogg at May 8, 2006 2:08 AMabout the prophecy thing, I didn't mean it to be false, lol.
Im Just saying, How could you think It be false with World War 1 starting at that same year and all the things in the world getting dramatically worse.
And about the time that God choose that time, to do something... I meant It was more convincing I guess you could say, to have God put the Holy Spirit into someone before hand than after 1914.
I mean, All religions kinda grow.
But more n more, people become Jehovah Witness' more, than most other religions, and the numbers, basically sky rocket.
And according to our "144,000" which this main thing is suppose to be about, It was announced at Jesus' memorial in April,that the number Is almost set.
I think that there's like over 130,000. I mean, It's said that You'll know if you are one of them. Most Definatly.
Also, They have articles out for the Annointed. (144,000) If you wanna read it I mean.
It does sound kinda silly though that only a certain amount are allowed in heaven.
But, Then number is right there in the Bible.
If It's not to be meant literal, what does it signify than.
Plus God says in the BIBLE, that He meant the Earth to be a paradise, not to be destroyed or have the "wicked" live on It, when this "Rapture" is suppose to take place. That word is also not mentioned in the Bible. Although I know there is a scripture to make catholics believe that.
And God does not Lie, so, The earth is meant to be a paradise again, and to have HUMANs, that are "good", live on it.
Do you think you have a choice to live in heaven or something?
Through it All, you show me this and that, and I show you this and that too.
But Just look at this.
Jesus' name
Well, that's his Newly used name.
But thats not what he was called when he was alive.
But anways...
His name MEANS:
"Jehovah(Yahweh) in salvation"
Hallilujeh - Praise Jehovah(Yahweh)
Hebrew/Jew name and word.
Posted by: Will Kellogg at May 8, 2006 2:22 AMWill
1) We have answered your questions but you have ducked ours.
2) You note you are nearly at 144k. Your membership according to the official JW website exceeds 6 million.
http://www.jw-media.org/people/statistics.htm
3) Your Arian brethren are growing faster...Moslems now exceed 1 billion. Following your growth logic, are they right?
4) Again please address any of the above questions especially...Where does Jesus deny being God?...Where do the Apostles deny Jesus' diety?...Where do students of the twelve apostles or Roman records deny the diety of Christ?...Since over 300 ancient greek bishops in the council Nicea disagree with your stance on the translation of the greek text, how can you stand on the translation of a 19th century salesman? What are you buying from him?
In Love
when we were one
Posted by: when we were one at May 9, 2006 10:04 AMSorry If It seemed like I "ducked" your questions, but, they were were just basically concerning Jesus As God, and like I've posted up several times before,
---> Read the two links I sent you
kay?
ok...
And It's 144,000 annointed to Heaven.
Not 144,000 Jehovah Witness'.
There's millions more than that, obviously.
144,000 of the discreet slace class.
What am I buying from him you ask?
Well, Like I said a couple of times as well, It's the prophecies that get a lot of people to become and stay Jehovah Witness'.
But the 1914 one was the big one...
Along with how Jehovah Witness', basically, have answers for any to every question there Is, all basically coming from the bible.
I have yet to ask a question and have no one answer it.
So you can't sit there and think that JW's make ZERO sence, when I told you, I'm not to educated in this matter. Also, to go talk to one that's been one for quite some time now.
I did say I would answer what I could. But I do have things to do In my life, so I can't just do this and that, but I do study with someone on the bible, so I can just ask them, so just put your questions In order... But read those 2 links first!
http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/start.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/library/na/article_01.htm
You'll get almost 100% of your answers there about anything "trinity" related.
And If you did read them already, then just don't really bother asking me about it.
Ask someone from the Kindom Hall, that's been a JW for years on in now.
Thanks
and I'm sorry for not answering what you asked.
I would suggest using something a little more researched than the Watchtower publications. There are no names of authors, nor are there any references. Concerning the Trinity, if one would read the early Church fathers, one would find that they believed in the Trinity. This includes ALL of the early Church fathers that the Watchtower tries to use against this belief. All quotes in the Watchtower concerning early Church fathers are taken out of context. Not until Arian in 325 AD. did any form of belief that Jesus was not God ever exist.
As far as Constantine goes, I again suggest doing more research in this matter, as the Watchtower publications continuously misquote, and possible even make up most of this information to fit its own purposes.
Though it is difficult, and time consuming due to a lack of any references, I suggest researching any information that is given by the Watchtower. Of the many Watchtowers I have read, not one article concerning religious history has been completely true, while some are just made up stories. When you find out that this statement is true, it will make you question: Who is really apostate?
This is not a bash at Jehovah's Witnesses, for I believe they are good/and honest people. It is merely directed at the information given to them by the "Vatican in Brooklyn."
Gregg
Nice note.
Further I am disturbed by Will's inablility to realize that nowhere does scripture give the JW the authority to interpret nor schedule the 144k (2 Pet 1:20- 2:1). He has answered nothing, he must choose to go to the next level of historical research but the grace to complete this is our Lord's... I hope we have done the best we could for him for you know he was sent here by the One... I think I was a bit sloppy with him. Instead I was concentrating on Jack who needs no such contact. Thanks to you and Matthew, he at least got more meaty interaction.
In Love
when we were one
Posted by: when we were one at May 14, 2006 9:39 PMAfter looking up more of Will's arguements, I find that there is more than sufficient evidence that the early Church was most clear on the Trinity of God. Most notably, Polycarp, the deciple of John the Beloved, (writer of the favorite "Revelations,") wrote extensively on the belief in the Trinity. Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, etc. All the references given are all taken out of context. They all clearly write about the Trinity as the belief in the early Catholic Church. So the point made by the "Tower in Brooklyn" is moot.
When it comes to Bible translation, it is easy to see how the Witnesses can get to their conclusion. However, it is important to remember Proverbs 30:5, that states nothing is to be added or taken away from the scriptures. To change scripture to fit one's religion is considered wrong in all Christian faith's (or at least should be). It reminds me of the old saying "Don't change it one IOTA." Granted, this is not a scriptural arguement, but one that was a serious arguement in the early church, and was so important that we still have this saying today. It was the Theotokos vs. Theotokis arguement. It caused a huge debate that lasted years. Just one letter changed the entire meaning of Christianity. Think about the 600+ changes made in the NWT, made by those who didn't even know any of the languages. Very dangerous indeed.
I hope that this will inspire Will, or any other Witness, to look into what is being taught, and to go to history, to find just what the early Catholic Church taught. You will find that it most clearly fits into scripture, as the Church cannot, and does not go against the written word. And when you find this to be true, know that the doors to the Church of the God of Faith, Hope, and Love, are open to you.
Posted by: gregg at May 31, 2006 1:13 PMResponse to the Jehovah Witnesse's: The 144,000 in the book of Revelation Chapter Fourteen are Jews who will Preach that Jesus is the Great Jehovah ... Website:www.jesusthelordofglory.com
Posted by: Rev. Donald E. Battle, Sr. at July 4, 2006 1:19 PMDear Rev. Battle,
I guess you are attempting to find buyers for your book... I would like to address one comment about your book:
Rev. Battle has become a Christology Scholar. His book is simply written, so most people can easily understand and enjoy. Rev. Battle also believes his book refutes all false religions and false teachings. This is achieved by clarifying nine essential Christian doctrines.
Do you consider the Catholic Church to be a false religion? I assume you cover the Eucharist in this book since you claim to be "clarifying nine essential Christian doctrines"?
In Christ,
Joe
Ask as many Catholics as you can ( including your priest )
What is God's name?
( Matt 6:9 Our father who is heaven hallowed be thy name )
What is God's Kingdom ?
( Daniel 2:44 - Gods Kingdom crushing secular government)
Why did god put man on earth ? If it was to test them - how come the angels get off scott free ??
If Adam hadn't eaten the fruit - what then ? would he have gone to heaven later ? Or stayed on Earth ?
Why is the world such a mess ? What is God doing ?
A garantee you - Your Priest won't know
But Jehovah's Witnesses Will
:o)
Remember witness are earnestly putting in real effort to understand God and his word - I think we should all study thoroughly!!
Posted by: simon at July 5, 2006 11:08 AMAsk as many Jehovah's Witnesses as you can.
Is Jesus God? Should we worship Jesus?
A garantee you - they won't know the right answer
But Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, Mennonites, Pentecostals, Dutch Reformed, Plymouth Brethren, Evangelicals, United Church will.
Simon,
Although I agree with Broken Record's comment I just thought that I would take a shot at your questions, as a Catholic.
1) What is God's name? Well that depends on which Person you are speaking about. God first revealed Himself to man as "I am" (i.e. Yahweh or YHWH). But we most perfectly know God's name through Jesus Christ. He revealed the "Father" to us and manifested to us God's love by taking on flesh and becoming Man. In other words, God became one of us to perfect our humanity. So the Second Person of the Trinity is Jesus Christ (i.e. God), for we know that "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (Jn 1:1). Jesus also revealed to us the Third Person of the Godhead in the Holy Spirit. On a side note, I hope you weren't implying that the typical JW answer - Jehovah - was the correct answer...we have more than established that the word Jehovah itself is based on the word Yahweh which is a modified translation considering the Hebrew - YHWH - lacked any vowels. So technically the word Jehovah isn't accurate.
2) What is God's Kingdom? "The kingdom of God [is] righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (cf. Rom 14:17).
3) Why did God put man on earth? If it was to test him how come the angels got off scott free? God by His very nature creates...thus we refer to Him as Creator. Yet God, by His very nature, loves. Love, true love, seeks to be loved in return. God creates and God loves. In His infinite wisdom He created a being (i.e. man) who possessed, in God's creative design, the capacity to love God in return. It is for this reason that we are here to freely know, love, and serve God. How do you know the angels got off scott free? Last time I checked the Bible is pretty clear that their was some point of choosing for them as well (see Jude 6, 2 Pet 2:4, Rev 12:7-9).
4) If Adam hadn't eaten the fruit - what then? would he have gone to heaven later? Or stayed on Earth? Well let's consider this...first of all, Adam did eat the fruit so we can speculate all we want but it won't change reality. Second, God knew that (1) man would be tested and (2) that man would fall...I mean do you think it surprised Him? If the Fall had not occurred I would suggest that man (and woman for that matter) would have experienced something similar to the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a bodily assuming into heaven. Yet even this is speculative, for we know that God's presence in the world at that time was different from what we know now.
5) Why is the world such a mess? What is God doing? Wrong question. The correct question would be What is man doing? We've already stated that God, in creating man, seeks love. Man given the gift of free will often chooses the opposite of the good, i.e. evil. The mess in this world is the direct result of man's failure to choose the good. God gave dominion of the earth to man (see Gen 1:28-30), so if there is a mess here, and indeed there is, whose fault is it?
Oh yeah, one more thing, my brother is a priest and he knew the answers to these questions... It's a bit presumptuous to think ONLY JWs would know the answers to these questions. Of course it also begs the question of whether or not JWs know the correct answers...
In Jesus Christ, my Lord and my God (Jn 20:28),
Joe
Joe
Wow. That was a terrific reply. God must be workin on you thru all that learnin.
In Love
wwwo
Date: 8/30/06
Please correct my Website Address to the following:
www.jesuslordofglory.com
Thank you and God bless you!
Rev. Donald E. Battle, Sr.
I have been reading these comments with great interest as a religious studies major, an Ex-Jehovah's Witness and a devote Catholic.
Will, all I can say is bless your young heart. Growing up Jehovah's Witness is a very confusing life. I know I have been there. The questions that you have on your mind and on your heart that you are earnestly seeking from the JWs will never be fulfilled.
Find the truth, that the truth may set you free. And I am not saying that the CAtholic choice is the one for you. There are many religions to choose from. Im just saying that there is a freedom in relieving your mind from the burdens of trying to always prove someone else's beliefs to be wrong so that you may be right. Just truely practice in what you believe and God will provide you peace and comfort in your mind and heart. I know this relief.
Joe, those answers were absolutely wonderful. Although in regards to Adam-the Genesis story is a wonderful oral tradition handed down ages and ages...why does it matter if he actually ate of the fruit or not?
Just a thought
Peace of mind to all.
Another's perspective,
Concerning the eating of the fruit, Pope John Paul II has some profound meditations on the "mythical" character of the Original Sin of Adam and Eve in Theology of the body. It's buried in a footnote somewhere as it is not his central point but even his footnotes contain enough insight to heal two centuries worth of deconstructive literary exegesis.
Posted by: Burnt Marshwiggle at September 29, 2006 11:20 AMEveryone please check your spelling before posting your comments. It is very hard to take your comments seriously when the spelling is not correct.
I know some of you get carried away by your opinions and don't go back to check.
Slightly off the subject, it is a shame that the JW's can't respect the choices of those who have already chosen which "religion" to follow. I have personal experience with the JW's "recruiting" methods. I wish that they would "go after" the unchurched instead of trying to "re-educate" those who are Catholic or other Christian religions. I understand that the JW's feel it is their mission to get as many people to join them as possible. I believe that it is better to understand and find the truth before "recruiting" those to their way of thinking.
Why were their no JW's before the 1800's?
Why would God wait so long to "reveal the truth"? Why do most JW's feel that they are the only chosen (part of the 144,000)?
Why would God bother to make everyone else in the world (just to be the targets for the JW's)?
We know that the Hebrews were the chosen people. How can the JW's feel that they are now the "chosen"? What changed?
Sorry for all the questions. I am just starting to learn more about the JW's as they (rather one particular person who is a JW) had "targeted and recruited" my husband and has taken him away from his family and religion.
I am more convinced that the JW "religion" is based on false doctrine and the Catholic Church has the fullness of faith and truth.
This listing has certainly given me more information and I thank everyone for their participation. (Again, spelling counts.)
I HAVE READ MOST OF THE COMMENTS POSTED CONCERNIGN THE 144K; I AM TRUELY SHOCKED TO SEE THAT IT SEEMS TO BE MORE ABOUT THE DEFENDING OF ONES DENOMINATION RATHER THAN EXPLORING THE TRUTH ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD. NOW BEFORE I BEGIN TO COMMENT ON THE 144K, THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT MUST FIRST BE ADDRESSED.
1. "BUT THE NATURAL MAN RECIEVETH NOT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD: FOT THEY ARE FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED" (1COR 2:14)
2. THE SCRIPTURES SAY IN THE FIRST CLAUSE OF ISA 1:18 "COME LET US REASON TOGETHER:" NOT DEBATE TOGETHER.
IN MOST OF THE COMMENTS THAT I HAVE READ, ALTHOUGH SOME ARGUMENTS APPEAR TO BE RESEARCHED, THE FORMAT OF ANSWER SEEMS TO BE DEBATE OVER DENOMINATIONAL DOCTRINE, INSTEAD OF REASONING OF THE SCRIPTURES, NOT WITH THE PHYSICAL MIND, BUT THE SPIRITUAL. YOU MUST REMEMBER THERE ARE BABES IN CHRIST, AS WELL AS THOSE SEEKING CHRIST, READING THESE COMMENTS. IF THEY SEE DEBATING, AND NO AGREEMENT OF SCRIPTURE, RATHER THAN GETTING AN UNDERSTANDING THEY BECOME CONFUSED AND POSSIBLY CAST AWAY.
NOW AS I BEGIN TO COMMENT ON THE DOCTRINE OF THE 144K; I WILL FIRST TELL YOU I WAS RAISED A JW, BUT NOW AM A BAPTIST MINISTER. HOWEVER I REMAIN PARTIAL TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE JW'S BECAUSE OF THE RESEARCH THAT I HAVE DONE OVER THE LAST 20+ YEARS. IN MOST CASES, THEY ARE CORRECT IN WHAT THEY SAY, HOWOEVER NO ONE MAN OR RELIGION HOLDS THE TOTAL UNDERSTANDING OF TRUTH. IF THEY DID, THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR THE BIBLE, OR GOD. WE WOULD BE GOD'S OURSELVES.
NOW TO BETH AND THOSE OUT THERE; JEHOVA WITNESS, ROMAN CATHOLIC, CATHOLIC OR OTHERWISE, PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT I WILL BRIEFLY STATE; ANDTHEN FOLLOW GODS COMMANDMENT; "STUDY TO SHEW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD, A WORKMAN THAT NEEDETH NOT TO BE ASHAMED, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH".(2TIM 2:15)
THOSE WHO TAKE THE NIMBER 144K LITERALLY AND NOT METAPHORICALLY ARE CORRECT. THIS IS MADE CLEAR BY THE NUMBERING AND NAMING OF THE TRIBES IN REV. 7:4-8. NOW IT IS ARGUED THAT THESE ARE ALL "JEWS", BUT I INVITE YOU TO DO A STUDY; THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A HEBREW, JEW, AND ISRAELITE, HOWEVER THEY ALL ARE COMMON. YOUR STUDY AND HOPEFUL REVELATION FROM THE SPIRIT WILL REVEAL THIS IS STEP ONE TO UNDERSTANDING THE 144K.
REV. 7:4 STATES THE 144K WERE/ARE BEING SEALED FROM "ALL THE TRIBES...OF..THE CHILDREN..OF ISRAEL" VERSES 5-8 NAMES THE TRIBES AND CHILDREN.
NOW BEFORE RUNNING WITH THE INFORMATION FROM VERSES 4-8 CAREFUL ATTENTION MUST BE PAID TO VERSES 1-3; FOR EXPLAINS THAT IN THIS VISION THAT JOHN WAS HAVING THE "ELECT" AS REFERED TO BY THE JW'S IS STILL BEING CHOSEN AND MARKED OR SEALED.
NOW AS WE WOULD VENTURE TO SAY THE BIBLE IS CLEAR THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE "JEWS", WE MUST BE CAREFUL TO REMEMBER THAT "JEWS" REJECTED CHRIST; MORE CLEARLY THE PRACTITIONERS OF JUDAISM. THE "JEWS" OR DESCENDANTS OF JUDAH, WHICH ARE SONS OF ISRAEL ARE BEING SEARCHED FOR THE FAITHFUL ONES. THESE WOULD BE THOSE SONS WHO ACCEPT CHRIST.
THE ERROR I HAVE FOUND WITH THE WITNESS DOCTRINE IS THAT THEY ARE ALL JW'S, AND THAT THE JW'S ARE THE NEW OR SPIRITUAL JEWS. HOWEVER THE WITNESSES CONSTANTLY RESEARCH AND MAKE CHANGES IF THEY ARE FOUND INCORRECT. THIS MAY NO LONGER BE THEIR TEACHING, ALTHOUG THEY HOLD FAST TO THE 144K DOCTRINE OF THE ELECT. ALSO IT IS NOT KNOWN HOW MANY "JEWS" HAVE CONVERTED AND BECOME JW'S, BUT THEY DO HOLD THAT THE ELECT IS PART OF THEIR CONGREGATION. WHAT IS CLEAR IS THAT THESE 144K "ELECT" ARE BLOODLINE AFRO-ASIAN PEOPLE THAT WE REFER TO, IMPROPERLY, AS A WHOLE "JEWS". FOR THOSE WHO DONT UNDERSTAND THE "AFRO-ASIAN" STATEMENT, DO YOUR RESEARCH; THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY WERE BLACK; AT LEAST NOT ALL OF THEM.
WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?
WE OFTEN MISS THE POINT OF SCRIPTURE BECAUSE WE TEND TO KEY IN ON ONE VERSE INSTEAD OF THE WHOLE PASSAGE OR CHAPTER IN MOST CASES. REVELATION 14 STARTING AT VERSE ONE SHOWS WITHOUT CONFUSION WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE:
1. REV.14:1 STATES THAT THE 144K STATES THAT THE 144K STAND WITH THE LAMB (JESUS) ON MT. SION(ZION) AN HAVE GODS NAME IN THEIR FOREHEADS.
2. REV. 14:3 REVEALS THE 144K STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE SINGING BEFORE THE PRESENCE OF THE 4 BEASTS, AND ELDERS. IT ALSO STATES THAT NO ONE COULD LEARN THIS SONG BUT THE 144K. ALL THIS IS OBVIOUS AND CLEARLY SPELLED OUT. THE KEY IS, THE 144K ARE CLEARLY IDENTIFIED AS "REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH". THIS MEANS THAT THEY WERE CHOSEN FROM THE SONS OF MAN, THEY WERE BOUGHT AND THE DEBT PAID BY JESUS CHRIST WHEN HE DIED ON THE CROSS.
3. REV.14:4 STATES THAT THE 144K WERE NOT DEFILED BY WOMEN. THIS CLEARLY IDENTIFIES THEIR GENDER AS MALE. THE GREEK WORD TRANSLATED "DEFILED" IS MOLUNO(M0O-OO'-MO)WHICH MEANS"POLLUTED OR STAINED. IT IS USED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT TO DESCRIBE THOSE WHO HAD NOT KEPT THEMSELVES PURE FROM THE STAINS OF SIN, WHO HAVE SOILED THEMSELVES THROUGH ADULTRY AND FORNICATION. THEREFORE IN THIS PASSAGE, WE UNERSTAND THAT THESE MEN WERE NOT GUILTY OF FORNICATION OR ADULTRY.
THE SECOND CLAUSE OF THIS VERSE STATES" FOR THEY ARE VIRGINS. NOW THE WORD VIRGIN USAULLY APPLIED TO WOMEN, BUT WE KNOW THE GENDER TO BE MALE. THE GREEK WORD USED HERE IS "PARTHENOS". OTHER THAN THE APPLICATION TOWARD WOMEN, THIS WORD APPLIES TO MEN AND CARRIES THE MEANING "A MAN WHO HAS ABSTAINED FROM ALL UNCLEANNESS AND WHOREDOM ATTENDANT TO IDOLATRY, AND SO HAS KEPT HIS CHASTE" ( STRONGS CONCORDANCE AND DICTIONARY). SO IN READING THIS PASSAGE, AND UNDERSTANDING THE TRUE WORDING AND MEANINGS, WE COME TO THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THESE MEN, COULD IN FACT HAVE BEEN MARRIED. FOR IF A MAN WERE MARRIED, HE WOULD NOT BE GUILTY OF FORNICATION OR ADULTRY, IF HE WAS ABSTAINED BEFORE MARRIAGE. WE WILL ALSO FIND THAT THIS WORD ALSO SIGNIFIES THAT THESE MEN WERE "PURE IN HEART AND THOUGHT". SO THE STATEMENT THAT ONE OF THE RESPONDENTS TO THIS ISSUE MADE ABOUT PETER BEING ELIMINATED FROM THE CATEGORY OF THE 144K, IS INCORRECT, FOR PETER WAS LEGALLY MARRIED.
WE ALSO FIND THAT THESE MEN WERE THE FIRSTFRUITS UNTO GOD AND THE LAMB(JESUS). THIS MEANS THAT THEY WERE THE FIRST RESURRECTED AND GATHERED. IT IS CLEAR THAT THEY WILL BE IN THE HEAVENS FOR IT IS TESTIFIED TO IN PREVIOUS VERSES IE VERSE 3.
NOW TO PREVENT GIVING A TOTAL THEOLOGY LESSON, I WILL QUICKLY STATE THAT THERE IS A GREAT MULTITUDE THAT ALSO SHALL FOLLOW, HOWEVER I INVITE YOU TO STUDY, FOR THEY WILL HAVE A DIFFERNT PLACE AND FUNCTION IN THIS GRAND PURPOSE OF THINGS. THE WITNESSES ARE CORRECT THAT THERE IS TWO DIFFERENT CLASSES OF SERVANTS. HOWEVER I STILL DISAGREE THAT THEY ALL WILL BE JW'S.
NOW I WILL STOP MY EXPOSITORY COMMENTING AT THIS POINT AND AGAIN INVITE THOSE READING TO STUDY. NOT TO PROVE YOUR POSITION, BUT TO UNDERSTAND GODS WORD. REMEMBER THE WORDS OF JOHN 5:39 AND 40.
THE DENOMINATION BASHING MUST STOP.THE WITNESSES ALTHOUGH I AM SURE YOU WILL DISAGREE, ARE BROTHEREN AND ARE ALSO CHRISTIANS. WE NEED TO STOP CALLING THEM A CULT. WE ARE ALL CULTS TO SOME DEGREE, AND WE ALL HAVE DOCTRINAL FLAWS.
THE CATHOLICS HAVE "HAIL MARRY MOTHER OF GOD", THIS STATEMENT IS CONTRADICTING T