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What IS wrong with that doctrine is the diefication of Mary. She was after all HUMAN. She was sinful- as we are all. She was a phenomenal woman of God, blessed among all women. However, she is not holy. To say as such is blashphemy. There is none holy except The Lord. She is not to be prayed to ... Nor are the saints, for the Bible calls us all to be saints. Christ is our only mediator and redeemer. These ideas are stripping away Christ's glory power and diety. God's glory is manifested in the sacrifice of Jesus.. and NO ONE else. Direct your time and prayer on only Him who can hear you.. Jesus.. I'm sure Mary would agree.

Who deified Mary, Gabriela? The Catholic Church hasn't. However, Mary was not sinful and I challenge you to show me one sin in Scripture she committed. Of course, this wasn't based on her power, but on the power of Christ who chose to make His mother sinless.

Prayer is not worship, Gabriela, the Mass and the Eucharist are worship. Prayer is a conversation with someone who has died. If you ask your friends to pray for you, is this a sin? Scripture tells us that the prayers of Holy men and women are exceptionally powerful; who is holier than those already in heaven? Why not ask them to pray for us? Far from stripping anything away from Christ, we are glorifing Him through His "children." Is a mother upset when her children are glorified? No, she is thrilled. How much more so would Christ be thrilled by our honoring of His children?

I recommend you continue looking through our website.

God bless,
Jay

While we Catholics correctly point out that we honor and respect Mary but do not worship her (for the first commandments rightly restricts our worship to God alone), we must also exercise patience with Protestants who understandably cannot distinguish between worship and honor.

Consider the ways in which a Catholic worships God alone: kneeling, genuflecting, eucharistic adoration, stations of the cross, offering sacrifice, consuming the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Catholics do not do this for Mary or anyone else - only for Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Consider also the the ways in which a Catholic gives honor to Mary: singing songs, remembering her words and deeds, imitating her actions, asking her to pray for us.

For an informed Catholic, the difference between worship and honor is like day and night - there is no mistaking the two. But recall that for many Protestants kneeling is on the decline, genuflecting practically forbidden, eucharistic adoration is considered idolatry, the stations of the cross count as graven images, to offer sacrifice to God is to damn oneself by rejecting the power of the cross, and the rejection of Transubstantiation is the one of the only doctrines which unites all Protestants.

So what is left for the Protestant to do when worshipping Our Lord? singing songs, remembering words and deeds, imitating actions, asking for intercession. Because so many ways of worshipping God are forbidden to Protestants, the ways that remain open to Protestants match more closely the honor Catholics give to Mary rather than the worship Catholics give to God.

With that in mind, Catholics can exercise patience and understanding rather than surprise and frustration when Protestants accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary.

Clem, if you still read this blog, please forgive my previous lack of understanding or patience.

Hello Jay,

I read your challange to Gabriella to find a place in scripture that said that Mary committed a sin. I would like to take that challange.

Jay's Quote: However, Mary was not sinful and I challenge you to show me one sin in Scripture she committed.

May we start in Romans 3:23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Next lets look at 1 John 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–

Mary was flesh and blood as we are, therefore she was born with a sin nature. You say that the Catholic Church does not deify Mary... than that means that you agree that she was a woman, a mere human?

Scripture does tell us that she was blessed among woman. What a privledge and honor it was to carry Jesus Christ in her womb...

I return this challange to you my brother in Christ... Please show me in scripture were it say's that Mary was without sin.

Blessings in Christ,
Dawn

Dawn,
I ask you this:
Would you fill clean water in a dirty container? can the water stay pure that way?
Would God put his Son in an 'unfit' places? don't be ridiculous. Close the bible for a moment, you need to think. Here's a tip; If you marry someone, also love and pay respect to his mom. It would please him.

cheers,
Antonio

Dawn,

Excellent post, with proof of the Holy Scriptures to back it up. As far as Broken Records comments on what is left for Protestants to do for worship.
Well my friend, praise is worship.

"So what is left for the Protestant to do when worshipping Our Lord? singing songs, remembering words and deeds, imitating actions, asking for intercession. Because so many ways of worshipping God are forbidden to Protestants, the ways that remain open to Protestants match more closely the honor Catholics give to Mary rather than the worship Catholics give to God."

According to the Bible, we are to praise Him with the timbre and dance, the sound of the trumpet, the string instrument, song and dance...I could go on. According to the Bible, that is what constitutes worship and praise. That alone is reserved for the Lord. So if you are doing any of the aforementioned to anyone else besides God Almighty, that constitutes idol worship.

God Bless

Marc,
We praise and worship Him also, but the Bible also says we must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. Of course, you - like the apostles who left at the end of John 6 - can't accept that teaching, so you ignore it. This is the essence of worship and is Christ's answer to the question, "How do we know you are the messiah?"

Dawn,
So you would argue that a baby who dies just after birth has sinned? How about a severely retarded person? If you read this passage in context, you'll see that by "all," Paul means the Jews and the Greeks collectively - this was revolutionary in his time. He did not simply mean "every single person has sinned."

By the way, as Catholics we believe that Mary did need a Savior - she was an ordinary woman. However, since God choose her from every other woman in history to be His mother (and to contain God in her womb), Jesus Christ Himself removed her sin before conception. In other words, God decided to make His mother sinless - she was after all the new Ark of the Covenant, the new Holy of Holies.

In addition, the angel Luke essentially renames Mary as "Full of Grace." Grace is removed from the soul by sin, so only a sinless person could be full of Grace by definition. Your argument would be that the Angel Gabriel was wrong? This is where it says Mary was without sin. By the way, this truth was also believed for 1,500 years by all Christians until the protestant revolution. So actually you have the burden of proof - even those who followed the apostles agreed that Mary was without sin. Who are you to change this?

I also recommend you read The Biblical Mary Part I and The Biblical Mary Part II.

God bless,
Jay

Jay,

We have been through the whole eucharist discussion. We will save that for another day. As for Mary's sinless nature, the Bible does not indicate that she is excused from the statement that ALL HAVE SINNED. Christ however is excused from that statement and is the only one who has been excused from that statement.
As for babies sinning and the mentally handicapped sinning...yes they have. According to the Bible all have sinned, even from the time of conception. Why? Just look at Adam. We inherited this sin.

First let us look at Psalm 51:5

"Surely I was sinful at BIRTH, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Now let us look at Romans 5

"12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come."

So, Jay...according to the Bible...ALL and that means EVERY SINGLE PERSON...has sinned. If you want to look at it as babies and the mentally handicapped have sinned by default...I'll agree to that. Nonetheless..according the Holy Bible...all have sinned.
Now as for Mary, she too also sinned. I am sure you are aware that she presented a sin offering. See Luke 2:24.

Now I have heard alll excuses that this wasn't sin offering for sin as we know the word sin to mean. I find that hard to swallow. It definitely was a sin offering for the offerers atonement. The Bible is consistent with the word sin. A sin is a sin.

As far as the Full of grace issue. Grace comes from God and means favor. Stephen was also full of God's grace. That does not make him sinless. To receive God's favor does not make you sinless. To receive God's grace or his favor merely shows the mercy and love He has for us. Contrary to your statement that sin removes grace from our soul, because we are sinful...we who call on the Lord receive more grace. The reason I am alive is because of God's grace. The reason I am healthy is because of God's grace. My point is that we are sinful by nature and we truly do deserve death. But because we have a loving God, a merciful Father who extends His grace,love and mercy to us, we are kept safe. Paul in Corinthians instructs us not to take the grace given by God in vain.
All of this said to show that being given grace by God does not equate to sinlessness. Even so, Paul in Romans 5:20 says

"Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound"

Grace is something that is given unto us by God. No works can earn it.
So once again, to say that the angel Gabriel told Mary she was sinless because she was full of grace is really not understanding the Biblical meaning of God's grace.

"By the way, this truth was also believed for 1,500 years by ALL Christians until the protestant revolution."

Another false statement. Just to make sure we are clear, Jay was referring to Mary's sinless nature.

“And this is hence especially manifest. "For while He yet talked to the people," it is said, "one told Him, Thy mother and Thy brethren seek Thee. But He saith, who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" And this He said, not as being ashamed of His mother, nor denying her that bare Him; for if He had been ashamed of her, He would not have passed through that womb; but as declaring that SHE HATH NO ADVANTAGE from this, unless she do all that is required to be done.” -John Chrysostom

No advantage to bearing Christ according to John Chrysostom. No advantage of having been made pure and sinless reported here. Rather, Mary like all of us had to be obedient to the word of the Lord. Which, by the way she was. Later on, John Chrysostom points out that Christ had rebuked Mary and that He was careful to honor her. He was careful to honor her because He wanted to follow the law, but more so, because He cared about the SALVATION of her soul. This is according to John Chrysostom, an early church father who did not view Mary as being sinless.

AS Dawn pointed out, you should be able to prove that Mary was not included in the ALL HAVE SINNED statement in the Bible. The Bible says that all have sinned or are sinful meaning full of sin, including babies. The Bible also shows us that grace abounds more where there is sin. This understanding of grace negates you statement that sin removes grace from the soul.
I'll compare what you said to what God says
Jay: "Grace is removed from the soul by sin, so only a sinless person could be full of Grace by definition."

God: Rm5:20 "Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound"

I'll go with God on this one Jay;)

I also pointed out one early church father who did not believe that Mary had an advantage just by giving birth to Christ.

To recap, you should be able to do the following to support Mary's sinless nature and the prayers to her.
1. Show that Mary was excluded in the ALL HAVE SINNED statement.
2. Show where Mary was prayed to.
3. Show where it is taught to pray to Mary.

You will not be able to find this at all in the Bible. Therefore, Mary being sinless is not Biblical by nature. Everything I have shown you is with the exception of the writings by John Chrysostom, is supported by the Bible...CLEARLY EVIDENT. Can you show me where it says that Mary did not sin in the Holy Scriptures?

One last note, I believe that Mary to be an obedient servant of the Lord. She was brave, humble and selfless. SHe loved the Lord and knew the Lord well. Everything that I would hope to be as a servant of the Lord, I find in Mary.

God Bless

Jay,

Dawn pretty much owned you already, but I'm just adding to it. First, Dawn is correct, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. In addition to this, 1 Timothy 2:5 shows that the only one we should worship and pray to God through is Jesus. "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus." Don't pray to Mary, dont call her sinless, and don't call her Holy. Sure, she was a good person, but there are many great people. Because of the first sin by Adam, we are born with sin. The only way out of sin is through Jesus, because through Jesus we are born in life, but Adam we are born in sin. Since Jesus is the only one through whom we are born in life, Mary is not sinless. I think I MIGHT have spoken to you in the idol worship page before Jay, and honestly, you don't know how to make a very strong point. Proof of your points from the Bible always helps.

David

Antonio,

YOU ASKED: "Would you fill clean water in a dirty container? can the water stay pure that way?
Would God put his Son in an 'unfit' places? don't be ridiculous. Close the bible for a moment, you need to think."

This is a little late because I just started looking at this site not long ago, but I think YOU are the one that needs to think. If Mary was sinless, then by your logic, HER mother and father had to be sinless, you can't put clean water in a dirty container right? And if that is the case, then her parents parents were sinless, and so on and so forth until Adam and Eve. We all know they sinned. They are the reason we are sinful by nature. Are you saying that your reasoning does not apply to Mary but it did for Jesus? Just read Romans 3:23.

It is obvious that Mary sinned, Adam and Eve were her first parents. That's the reason Jesus came here, he came here for ALL OF US. To save EVERYONE from sin.

"Close the bible for a moment, you need to think." A little weird for you to be saying don't you think? Aren't we talking solely about religion here. You can't just close the Bible and make up something. I don't know about you, but it's tough for me to think about Jesus without reading the Bible first.

David

Antonio,
I agree with David on this one. Christ became sin: "God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:21. Sure He didn't sin, but He freely chose to become it for us. He chose to be the thing most hated by God. Can you just imagine how it would feel to be hated by God? So why, when Jesus lived on this earth, ate food, and touched sinful people his entire life, would he not be able to be born of a normal human being who had sinned?

Mary is and was holy, though. Holy simply means "set apart". God had chosen her from the beginning of time to be His handmaiden. She chose to agree with his choice. We can be just as holy if we choose to agree with God's choices for our lives. Yes, we can be just as holy as Mary.

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