DeoOmnisGloria.com

I'm a bit confused. I thought that Jehovah's Witnesses were the ones who deny that Jesus was God or even a god. They reject the Trinity and believe in salvation through righteous living abstaining from all sins. (as if)

I thought that the belief that Jesus was a god but not the same as God was Mormonism.

If you could clear this up for me I would appreciate it. But if you are wrong, you need to know.

I like what one priest said in response to some Jehovah's witnesses. Once they had told him about their beliefs, he exclaimed "Oh, so you're Arians!" This apparently confused the pair into silence.

Perhaps a good idea for debunking their beliefs would be to expose the unoriginality of their supposed "revealation" by teaching them about the Arians and how this same heresy continues to re-surface in different forms.

Peggy,

Jehovah Witnesses believe:

Jesus lived in heaven as a spirit person before he came to earth. He was God's first creation, and so he is called the "firstborn" Son of God.Jesus is the only Son that God created by himself. Jehovah used the prehuman Jesus as his "master worker" in creating all other things in heaven and on earth. God also used him as His chief spokesman. That is why Jesus is called "the Word." — Taken from the Jehovah Witness Official Website

JESUS never claimed to be God. Everything he said about himself indicates that he did not consider himself equal to God in any way—not in power, not in knowledge, not in age.
In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God.

But the Arian, though he did not come straight down from the Gnostic, pursued a line of argument and taught a view which the speculations of the Gnostic had made familiar. He described the Son as a second, or inferior God, standing midway between the First Cause and creatures; as Himself made out of nothing, yet as making all things else; as existing before the worlds of the ages; and as arrayed in all divine perfections except the one which was their stay and foundation. God alone was without beginning, unoriginate; the Son was originated, and once had not existed. For all that has origin must begin to be. - Arianism

I hope this helps.

In Christ,
Joe

So Joe,

I see clearly that you have used many passages from scripture that indicate that Jesus was God and not only a god. However, there are some passgaes that you breezed right over that appear to tell otherwise. Passages that sound as if Jesus, Himself, declares that He is not equal with the Father, a belief held to by Jehovah Witnesses. One of the passages I am speaking of is Matthew 24:36 "As for the exact day or hour, no one knows it, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father only." Wow, it seems as though Jesus is admitting His unequalness with the Father in knowledge. You can also check the Gospel of Mark on this matter and find Mark 13:32 "As to the exact day or hour, no one knows it, neither the angels in heaven nor even the Son, but only the Father." Again, it appears as though Jesus is saying the Father has more knowledge but how can this be if Jesus and the Father are one? I'm not saying there isn't plenty of proof contrary to the Jehovah Witnesses for there is, but how do you explain these passages, which appear to conflict with your beliefs. In honest, I would like to hear your explaination of these passages so as to clear up any confusion.

Here's one skeptic waiting for a response

Hi Skeptic,

First, just because a verse may be hard to understand doesn't mean that it gives a religious organization the right to manipulate the Word of God in other verses, as Jehovah Witnesses have clearly done in John 1:1, i.e. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jehovah Witnesses have conveniently added the word "a" to this last part. A clear manipulation of the original Greek.

Second, the Scriptural passages that support the Catholic/Christian belief that Jesus is God far outnumber the passages, that might lead one to believe otherwise.

Third, there is history. The fundamental belief that Jesus is God dates back to the beginning of Christianity. Whereas the Jehovah Witnesses' belief in His being just "a" god are unique to them and any time prior to their founding had been condemned as heresy.

Finally, to directly address your comment. About Mark 13:32, St. Augustine once wrote:

Our Lord Jesus Christ was sent to be our Master, yet he declared that even the Son of Man was ignorant of that day, because it was not part of his office as Master to acquaint us with it."

But concerning what is written, that neither the Son nor the angels know the day and the hour, Your Holiness has understood quite rightly; because it is most certainly to be referred not to the same Son in respect to His being the Head, but in respect to His body, which we are...Augustine...says also...that it can be understood of the same Son, because Almighty God speaks sometimes in a human manner, as when He says to Abraham: "Now I know that you fear God." For God says this not because it was then that He knew He was feared, but because it was then that He made Abraham fear Him. For just as we say that it is a happy day, not because the day itself is happy, but because the day makes us happy, so too the Almighty Son says He does not know the day which He causes not to be known, not because He Himself does not know it, but because He does not permit it to be known at all. Whence also the Father alone is said to know it, because the Son, consubstantial with Him, has it by reason of His nature, which is above the angels, that He knows of which the angels are ignorant. Whence also this can be understood in a more subtle way, that the Only-begotten, incarnate and made perfect Man for us, did indeed in His human nature know the day and the hour of the judgment, but nevertheless did not know this from His human nature. What He knew in it He did not on that account know from it, because God-made-man knew the day and the hour of the judgment by the power of His Godhead.... Thus the knowledge which He did not have from the nature of His humanity, by which, like the angels, He was a creature, this knowledge He denied that he, along with the angels, who are creatures, possessed. Therefore, He knows, as God and as Man, the day and the hour of the judgment; but for this reason, that who is not a Nestorian cannot possibly be an Agnoite. For how could anyone who confesses that the Wisdom Itself of God is incarnate says that there is anything of which the Wisdom of God is ignorant? It is written: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was, in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him." If all things, then without a doubt even the day and hour of judgment. Who, then is so foolish as to presume to say that the Word of the Father made that of which He was ignorant? It is also written: "Jesus, knowing that the Father had given Him all things into His hands." If all things, certainly the day of judgment and the hour. Who, then, is so stupid as to say that the Son received into His hands what He did not know? - Letter of Pope Gregory I to Peter, a subdeacon of Sicily

Of the Son it is said: "Of that day and hour no one knows, except the Father, not the angels in heaven and not the Son." If we receive Baptism equally in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we must believe there is one name for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which is God. If God is one, how can there be a diversity of knowledge in one divinity? What is greater, to be God or to know all things? If He is God, how does He not know?...In the Apostle (Paul) we read about Christ: "In whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Col 2:3). See what he says: "all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." Not that some are and some are not: but all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge; but they are hidden. So what is in Him is not lacking to Him, even though it be hidden from us. But if all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ, we must ask why they are hidden. If we men were to know the day of judgment, which is the subject of the statement, and that the day of judgment is to come after two thousand years, knowing that it is so far in the future, we would only become negligent. We would say, "What difference does it make to me if the day of judgment is to come after two thousand years?" When it is said that the Son does not know the day of judgment, it is so stated for our sake, so we do not know when the day of judgment is to come. Finally, see what follows that statement: "Take care, watch and pray; for you do not know when that time will come" (Mk 13:33).

In Christ, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity,

Joe

Wow!

I surrender! Joe, you've made perfect and clear sense in explaining Matt. 24:36 and Mark 13:32, which clearly does not indicate that Christ was not all-knowing. All I can say is that to use these passages to show that Jesus Christ was not God is simply being small-minded. Jehovah Witnesses got nothing on you guys! Nothing!

Here's one Skeptic completely convinced

Skeptic

Hi,

I know I will probably get "my foot slammed in the door" (a little joke), for suggesting these links.

However being used to feet slammed in the door etc, may I suggest these links, in regards to some of the posts about Jehovah's Witnesses. I am only doing this, as a means of making clear to you, the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and as to why the beliefs.

http://jehovah.to/exe/general/index.htm

http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=new+world+translation&sp-a=sp0a076c00&sp-p=any&sp-f=iso-8859-1

http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=john+1.1&sp-a=sp0a076c00&sp-p=any&sp-f=iso-8859-1

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/home.htm

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/john1files.htm

off topic link:

http://f3.yahoofs.com/blog/43117eefz15ecf5e4/0/__sr_/63d8.jpg?mggElmEBfSTATO5t

http://www.lincolntribune.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=1329&topic_id=176&forum=17

Pope Benedict would know a lot about Jehovah's Witnesses.

August 21, 2005
The Canberra Times
To Serve The National City And Through it The Nation

[Canberra, Australia]

Pope Remembers Steffie
"But he's still just a naughty boy to me" say Cooma Cousin

By Markus Mannheim

He may be the spiritual head of the world's largest Christian church,
but a cousin of Pope Benedict the XVI says that he is still a naughty
boy to her.

Steffie Brzakovic, 78, of Cooma, received a call from her famous first
cousin shortly after his election in a papal conclave in April.

It was the first time she had heard from him in more than 50 years.

Mrs. Brzakovic, who was raised in the southern Germany city of
Weilheim before moving to Australia in 1956, said she remembered
Joseph Ratzinger as a young boy who was often up to no good.

"He was everywhere he shouldn't [have] been, she recalled yesterday,
shaking her head. "When I think today of what we did, it's a wonder
that [we are] alive."

When she received the phone call three months ago she first thought it
was a prank. It wasn't until His Holiness told her it was "Ratzinger
Pepi", referring to his childhood nickname, that she realized who was
on the other end.

"I said, 'Are you the Pope?' and he [replied]. 'But for you I am still
Ratzinger Pepi'."

Mrs. Brzakovic was raised as a Roman Catholic, but became a Jehovah's
Witness in the 1970's.

She said that while her religious differences with her family had
caused frustration, the Pope had encouraged her for following her
faith.

"He told me that 'You are doing the work that we should do'," she
said, referring to her church's missionary work. "He said, 'You have
halls that are not too big, but they are full. We have cathedrals,
churches, chapels and they are empty'."

Mrs. Brzakovic is spending this weekend at a Jehovah's Witness
convention in Canberra with about 3000 district worshippers.

Post a comment