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I know this is an old post but just wanted to comment...I am familiar with the rosary. I came very close to converting to Catholocism at one point in my life. I am an Evangelical Christian. I can tell you that as far as repetitive heartfelt prayer I see no reason why protestants or any one else that is "Christian" would object to that,nor the scriptures and verses used,and yes its a nice way to learn the gospels.
I feel the issue most have against it is the Hail Mary, the "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.".
Protestants reject that Mary herself was born of a virgin and most I know strongly are against praying to saints or praying to Mary...afterall, these people are dead. Most feel that to pray to anyone or anything outside of the trinity is pagan idolatry and violates the first commandment.In accordance with the NT,Most non-Catholics agree that prayer should be said to the Father in the name of the son.Another protestant school of thought is that under Constantine,Roman Catholocism was simply derived from the Babylonian Mother and child Cult.
Not trying to make anyone angry,just offering a comment on the post as to why some,certainly not all non-Catholic Christians are offended by the rosary.

Faith, I apologize if my following questions sound rude but I really am having a hard time understanding Protestants on this one.

If I read James 5:16 and asked you to pray for me, would you refuse and say that was pagan idolatry that violated the first commandment?

If I asked your father to pray for me, would you rebuke me and say that was pagan idoloatry?

If I asked your great-grand-father to pray for me, I would understand very much (though I might disagree) if you told me that I was wasting my breath because the blessed man was long dead and had no way of knowing that I wanted him to pray for me. But why on earth would you all of a sudden tell me I was committing idolatry?

I left the Roman Catholic Church for an Evangelical one for 7 years and then returned to the Roman Catholic Church. As such, I disagree with many Protestant beliefs but I do feel I understand many of them (for example, I understand but disagree with their belief that worshipping the Eucharist is idolatry because I know they do not believe that the Eucharist is really Jesus).

But if I can ask you to pray for me without violating the first commandment, how can it be that when I ask Mary to pray for me, I have violated the first commandment? This one confuses me to end so could you please explain?

Broken:

Quick question: Do Catholic ever pray directly to God, or do they merely just ask others, specifically deceased others, to pray for them? If so, do they pray to God a majority of the time they are praying, or do they ask others, specifically deceased other, to pray for them the majority of the time they are praying? While I do ask others to pray for me, this is not the focus of what I do. I spend most of my prayer time praying directly to God. I feel that Christ has bought that right for me so that I can commune with God on a personal level without going through intermediaries. Just curious.

In Christ,

Thomas

Thomas, come to Mass one day and count it up yourself:

Opening prayer: direct prayer to God
Opening hymn: usually straight from Scripture, no mention of Mary, usually about one or more of the persons of the trinity.
Confiteor: first half directed at God and others (not deceased) present with them. Second half asks those present (not deceased), all the angels, all the saints, and Mary to "pray for me".
Lord have Mercy: directed at Our Lord Jesus Christ
Gloria: directed at the Father and the Son
Psalm: sung by a cantor and addressed directly to Yahweh
Prayers of the faithful: offered directly to God
Consecration of the Eucharist: a fifteen minute prayer offered directly to God the Father.
Our Father: addressed to God the Father
Lamb of God: addressed directly to Jesus
Prayer for cleansing: addressed directly to Jesus
Communion: the most profound union possible with none other than Our Lord Jesus Christ
Communion Antiphon: addressed to God
Announcements: I wish they were read to the deceased rather than to me
Final Blessing: prayer to God

Count it up: only one request for Mary, the angels, and the saints to pray for us.

Broken,

How about outside of Mass? Who is the typical Catholic's prayers to? It seems to me that it is almost exclusively to Mary with a few paton saints thrown in. What good does it do to ask someone to pray for you if you don't pray yourself. It's as if Catholics don't feel they can go directly to Christ to make their petitions.

I also have a problem with the patron saints. You have a patron saint of good crops and of love and of healing etc. etc. It just smacks of incorporating the paganism of the ancient Greek and Roman gods. (Which I am firmly convinced that this is exactly where this practice comes from.) This is something I'd rather avoid at all cost.

As long as it is not exclusive and I'm not praying to a particular saint for a particular problem, (as if he has more power over that problem than anyone else) to me I don't necessarily have a problem with asking the dead to pray for us. It may not help but it can't hurt.

In Christ,

Thomas

Thomas,

In doing research for an article I am planning on posting today I found this comment of yours that was never replied to.

First, Catholics do pray to God outside of Mass extensively. We have the Liturgy of the Hours which is completely based on the recitation of the Psalms (all prayers to God), the reading of other Scriptures, the Our Father, and other prayers to the Blessed Trinity. The Hours include: Morning Prayer, Midday Prayer, Evening Prayer, and Night Prayer. Priests and most religious orders and communities (i.e. Franciscans, Dominicians, etc) are required to say the Liturgy of the Hours daily. It is optional for the laity. This creates and nourishes in the priest, religious, and/or lay person the habit of daily prayer.

We also have the Divine Mercy Chaplet which is a petition to Almighty God for mercy. The rosary is used for praying this prayer. The prayers are:

On the 50 small beads:
"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."
On the 5 large beads:
"Eternal Father I offer You the Body ,Blood Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."
At the end there is this invocation which is recited 3 times, once for each member of the Trinity:
"Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

Before: "Bless us O Lord and these Your gifts which we are about to receive from Your bounty, through Christ our Lord. Amen."
After: "We give you thanks, almighty God, for all your benefits, who live and reign for ever and ever. Amen."
Then the father or mother says: "May the Lord grant us His peace." All respond: "And life everlasting. Amen."

"O Jesus, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I offer you my prayers, works, joys, and sufferings of this day for all the intentions of Your Sacred Heart, in union with the holy sacrifice of the Mass throughout the world, in thanksgiving for your favors, in reparation for my sins, for the intentions of all my relatives and friends, and in particular for the intentions of the Holy Father. Amen."

Also, the Rosary itself is ultimately a prayer to Almighty God. It begins with the Apostles Creed, it includes the recitation of the Our Father, and the primary focus of the Rosary meditations is the life of Jesus Christ. I can't imagine why any Christian would find fault with meditating at least 15 minutes a day on the life of Christ.

Let us also be clear about what paganism is. Paganism involves the worship of a god. Catholic do not consider saints to be gods, nor is intercessory prayer to them the same as worship and adoration that is given to God alone. It really comes down to ones understanding of the Mystical Body of Christ. Protestants have no problem asking a living brother or sister in Christ to pray for them, even going so far as to ask for prayers that address specific needs. Yet they refuse to ask assistance from their brothers and sisters in Christ who have gone before them, and God-willing, dwell in the presence of Almighty God. I just cannot comprehend why Protestants won't recognize the great value in this "heavenly prayer network". To say that they are not aware of us, implies that death separates us from that union in the Body of Christ, it makes us "unaware" of our brothers and sisters in Christ.

I think it is appropriate that your name is Thomas...I will pray to St. Thomas, your patron saint, that your doubt will be removed just as his was so many years ago.

I hope all is well with you and your family.

In Christ,
Joe

Joe,

The liturgical prayers are very foreign to me. Do Catholics just talk to God without some sort of formalistic prayer to recite? The Bible says that we should pray without ceasing. I take this to mean that we are to be constantly talking to God throughout the day and continually presenting your petitions before God. Does the Church encourage this type of praying? These questions may sound silly, but I honestly don't know the answer.

As far as prayers to the dead as I said before I don't necessarily have a problem with this. The theology behind it makes sense to me. I still have a problem with the assumption that certain saints have greater powers of prayer on certain issues than others. To me this seems to be a holdover from pagan Roman culture from which the Catholic Church sprung.

In Christ,

Thomas

Thomas,

Absolutely. The Church has always encouraged the life of prayer, that life of "praying without ceasing" that our Lord Jesus calls us to. This life of prayer involves the use of spontaneous, what I like to call, conversational prayer. I speak for myself here in that I talk to God throughout the day, asking Him questions, thanking Him, laughing with Him, and, at times, just calling out His Name. For me, conversation with God is a very important part of my day and my life as a whole.

Yet the Church, in her God-given wisdom, recognizes our need for "formal" prayer. Christ Himself provided us with the model of formal prayer in the "Our Father" and through the prayers and ritual celebrations of the Old Covenant that were fulfilled in the New Covenant. When speaking about the Liturgy of the Hours, we must acknowledge that the Psalms are considered by all Christians to be some of the most appropriate and beautiful prayers to God. Therefore, the Church deems it necessary for them to be prayed without ceasing through this form of "formal" prayer.

The power, or as I think is more appropriate, influence of certain saints is a matter of practical reality. Let me give you an example: St. Anthony of Padua, reknowned for seeking the "lost" and proclaiming the Gospel to them is the patron of "lost" persons or items. This is an old devotion, that just happens to be effective in reality as well. My grandmother, whenever she loses something, asks St. Anthony to help her find it, and, never fail, it turns up. I know this may sound silly, but good luck convincing my grandmother (or myself for that matter) that St. Anthony doesn't have a "unique" ability to help "lost" items turn up. Does my grandmother worship, adore, and speak to Jesus everyday? Absolutely. But she also maintains a close relationship with a number of the saints by asking for their assistance and intercession. I like to compare it to those special friends we have on this earth. I personally have many friends, Catholics, Protestants, and non-Christians, but I have a special friendships with my wife, Krista and Jay, who I have been best friends with since we were 7 years old. Keep in mind, both of them were Southern Baptists so it wasn't that we shared a common faith which bound us together. God had His hand in both of those relationships and wanted there to exist a unique bond that has brought forth much good fruit. The same holds true of our "personal" relationships with the saints.

How often do Protestants remember those who have gone before them that were "shining" examples of Jesus Christ while on this earth? How often do they attempt to develop any kind of knowledge or devotion to such individuals? I know that all Christians admire and seek to imitate the Apostles, but what about the rest of those who have "imitated" Christ down through the ages? I would experience a great void in my family history, memory, and fellowship without the Church's continuous lifting up of the saints, who, with us, make up the Body of Christ. I thank God for the saints, they show us that the path can be followed and that God is with us.

In Christ,
Joe

Joe,

Then I am satisfied with your answers . . . on this issue at least. ;)

In Christ,

Thomas

I study all aspects of religion to get a closer feel of what others believe.
I think it's just safer to trust and follow the Bible (the Word of God) fully. Not a certain Pope who adds things every now and then...
There is absolutely no scriptural proof that Mary is our mediator.

This was a doctorine and "assumption" of one of your leaders.

Don't the Catholics know that the traditions which are practiced (rinse and repeat) are spoken against over and over in scripture?

It's not a mystery. There is a very important reason why the reformation even took place.

Interesting, Sandy, so why should we trust the Bible? And can you point out specifically which Catholic traditions are spoken "over and over in scripture"?

There's no Scriptural proof of a lot of things, Sandy. For example, there's no Scriptural proof that the Bible is infallible. Or that the Trinity is correct. But there is proof that people can be mediators (through praying for one another) between us and Christ and that the holier a person, the more effective a mediator they are. Who is holier than the woman who had Jesus Christ in her womb for nine months and lived with Him 30 years before His ministry?

God bless,
Jay

Jay,

So you doubt the Bible?

Mary is not holy okay just face it. It does not say she is in the bible. I think Jesus will hear you just fine if you pray to him. He is a mediator between God and Man. Praying to Mary gets you nowhere because she is dead, and the dead know nothing. ECCLESIASTES 9: 5 If you have faith, you don't need proof that the Bible is infallible, you will just KNOW it. And if you are questioning if the Trinity is correct, well did you know what you were doing when you first called yourself Christian.

Ill tell you who is holier than Mary, JESUS IS, the whole TRINITY. You know why? That's because Mary is no more Holy than you or me.

David

David,
So when the Angel Gabriel called Mary "full of grace" she wasn't holy? It's clear that you don't understand grace! God would not have chosen an unholy person to bear Himself for nine months, would He?

Also, David, the Bible wasn't put together until over 350 years after Christ's crucifixion. It wasn't meant to be the sole source of Truth. It was meant to the the written part of the Word of God - their is an oral part to that Word as well that we receive through the Church.

Again, and I keep asking this question, but I'm getting no response. Jesus said that those in heaven rejoice when one comes back to God. In other words, Jesus (who is God) disagrees with your interpretation - in other words, God says you are wrong. Will you still insist on this silly interpretation? (You should read all of Ecclesiastes to understand it better).

God bless,
Jay

Jay,

I think confusion about the meaning of "full of Grace" underlies a good chunk of the difference between Catholics and Protestants. While Catholics and Protestants agree that God's grace is freely given and cannot be earned, there seems to be disagreement over whether God's grace also empowers us to overcome sin and do good works.

As a result, only Catholics believe that sin is a rejection (partial or total) of God's grace. From this follows the Catholic beliefs that salvation can be lost, the necessity of good works, and the sinlessness of Mary based on the title "full of Grace".

Broken Record and Jay,

HOLINESS AND GRACE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. Read Romans 3:23-24. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God: being justified freely BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." First, this tells us that all humans have sinned. Also, it says that to be free from sin, you must accept God's grace. This gift of grace is for us to be cleansed of sin. You can't be cleansed of sin unless you have sinned first.

You said: God would not have chosen an unholy person to bear himself for nine months would he?

Mary was born of two human parents, so that means that she is born in sin. By your logic, this must mean that her parents are not sinful, because how can she be sinless but be born of sinful parents right? That means that her parents' parents and so on were not sinless until our first human parents Adam and Eve. WE ALL KNOW THEY WERE SINFUL, that's why Jesus came, to heal us from their sin.

Also, if you are faithful, you will listen to the Bible, it is the authority. Nowhere does it say that you should listen to people as an equal to the bible. In fact it says the opposite. Mark 7:7 "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men"

And as for those in heaven rejoicing when someone comes to God. Those in heaven are God, Jesus, and the angels. there are also a select few that we know are in heaven because of the Bible. Of course they will be happy. But It does NOT, however, say that ALL HUMANS THAT HAVE DIED FAITHFULLY ARE IN HEAVEN. Again, they will not be in heaven until Jesus returns.

Sin is not only a rejection of Gods Grace, but that is a sin nonetheless. Sin can also be accepting God's grace, but slipping up or sinning in the process. God's grace is a way out of sin. He will help us when we stumble. Everyone sins, so even if we accept God's gift, we still might mess up. If this is to happen, we must ask God for forgiveness with all our heart. Matthew 26:34 "Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice" Even Peter was given the gift of God's grace, but he still sinned afterwards. He was forgiven.

Humans can be full of God's grace but still sin. That is why full of Grace does not prove Marys sinlessness.

David

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