Well, I rarely bring up purely political issues, but today I feel somewhat required to. In the past couple of weeks we first began hearing about the prisoner abuse in Iraq and now we have a live video of a beheading. The prisoner abuse is bad – tragic, really – and it gets to me that Americans were behind it. I somewhat understand the frustration these soldiers feel due to the problems they are having in Iraq. From my understanding much of this was done during interrogations and I find it ironic that earlier this year there were discussions on whether to remove prohibitions against torture in interrogations for terrorists. This clearly was torture and I think we now have a solid answer: Americans won’t (and shouldn’t) stand for it.
But now we have a beheading live on tape. As he is being killed, his murderers were shouting, “God is Great.” This makes me wonder: how do you resolve conflict with an enemy that clearly believes they have God’s intentions at heart? This is a clash of civilizations that comes down to one issue: authority. We discuss authority much on this blog, but not so much about Muslims. Ultimately, Muslims live by the Koran, which like the Bible can be misunderstood. Muslims tend to follow local leaders who may or may not teach “extreme” views. Is there a base of truth we can speak to or from? How do you have a discussion with an enemy that believes God Himself wants you dead?
Obviously dialogue must be started towards resolving conflict moving forward. I do think that Muslim governments tend to keep the people ignorant in order to keep them under control. Perhaps the answer begins with a free Iraq that imparts knowledge and critical reasoning skill to its people. Perhaps. I would be very interested in others opinions.
God bless,
Jay
Very interesting Jay. It is horrible to me that some of our military personel lowered themselves to the level of the enemy they are fighting. It is shameful for all involved. Like you, I understand where their hatred comes from, though that doesn't justify their actions at all. I pray for all involved in this war, near and far. I pray for the families of the victims that have lost their lives.
I think that Iraq should be freed, but who should ensure Iraq is set free? I don't want my son, nephew, brother or husband there. But then who? I'm not sure I know the answer but I do believe the Iraqi people deserve a peaceful life. God's peace be with us all.
I have a serious problem with the use of the "said" abuses of Iraqi prisoners by US soldiers by certain members of our House and Senate to promote their own political agendas. The same individuals have remained awfully quiet about the execution of US civilian, Nicholas Berg.
The fact of the matter is that our country is investigating the abuses found, court-martially the soldiers guilty of these "said" crimes, and attempting to reestablish a just prison system in Iraq, please note that as of yet we have not heard of any executions of Iraqis prisoners by American soldiers taking place. Yet we witness a videotaped execution of an American civilian, a brutal execution at that, which appeared to be some kind of religious ritual. They then proceded to proclaim that it was in retaliation for the abuse to Iraqi prisoners by the US Military! Those Iraqis who still side with the Iraqi militants have not in any way condemned this execution.
So we have two sides here: (1) the US, admitting that abuse has occurred, attempting to address it, and taking steps to insure that it doesn't happen again; and (2) the Iraqi miltants, brutally executing a US civilian in retaliation for abuses that occurred to Iraqi prisoners, making it a religious act, and proclaiming it to be justice. If Americans, were as warped as these individuals, we would be executing every one of our Iraqi prisoners in retaliation to the beheading of a US civilian, but we haven't because we still maintain a sense of justice. How someone can think that the brutal murdering of a civilian can be considered equal justice for physical, even sexual, abuse of one's fellow country men is beyond me.
For myself, the execution of Nicholas Berg only furthers my belief in the necessity of the US Military in Iraq and the need to permenantly remove all elements of this sadistic regime that remains. Keep in mind, these same miltants were doing these type of things to their own people under the leadership of Sadaam before the US Military even invaded Iraq. They literally live for the kill.
God bless our leaders and our soldiers and instill in their hearts truth, mercy and justice. And may God grant eternal rest to the soul of Nicholas Berg. Amen.
huh?
Joe,
Wasn't aware liberals/democrats were for beheading Nick Berg.
As much as the Arabs on video say this is retaliation, Nick's fate was set before the pictures came out. The moment they saw his Jewish last name on an American passport he was a dead man. I don't think we realize as Christians/Americans just how much these people hate us. I get mad sometimes but I can't bring myself to slowly saw of someones head with knife. The hardest thing to understand about terrorist is that they are not insane or mentally ill they believe what they are doing is the most rational thing in the world. They are incredibly out gunned by us and have no hope of beating us toe to toe or even in a Guirella warfare so the try demoralize us just like they did in Vietnam. Just like Jay said this is a clash of civilizations. The propaganda is true this is a battle for hearts minds. Its not like a you can just kill 150 terroist and take out terrorism. You can't kill an Idea that easily. I'm not a pacifist but we have to spend alot more on charity and propaganda towards the arab world to show them we are more than the Great Satan who invades thier countries and kills thier people.
I know there is difference to us between someone shooting a terrorist or accidentally killing a 7 year old but to an Arab or Muslim who has lost there loved one we are and always will look like the devil to them.
The key issue with Iraq just like Vietnam is outside forces in this case the Arab world streaming to the country fight us. Sometimes I feel Saudi Arabia is very similar to China supporting our enemy with its great wealth but trying to make peace with us at the sametime. Just like the administration at that time we don't want to fight the rest of the Arab world but really its and All or nothing scenario. We either go all amount and wipe these people out or we make peace with them. If you keep going inbetween the two choices, we become like Israel surrounded by enemies but not able to fight to our full abilities and end the conflict.
Jay,
The central question that lies at the heart of the clash between Western, liberal democracies and the Islamic Arab world is whether Islam can exist successfully within those aforementioned countries. Can Muslims live according the the Koran by existing in a pluralistic, democratic society?
Since the attacks on the U.S. in 2001, there have been only two or three Islamic leaders in the U.S. who have publicly rejected the ideas of Osama Bin Laden. Why? Because the overwhelming majority of Muslims in the world today believe that Bin Laden is taking the courageous path - that he is, in fact, doing God's will.
I live in a purely Sunni Muslim country, and although most Muslims say they are peace-loving, I don't believe they actually disagree with Bin Laden's beliefs or tactics. I don't think these Muslims are bad people, but they, as followers of the Koran, believe that conquering lands and implementing Islam is fundemental to the Islamic faith. Just as a Christian wouldn't be doing his duty by not trying to share the Gospel with unbelievers, Muslims feel that they are neglecting their duty to God by not forceably implementing God's will (Islam) on all lands and peoples.
If I am right, I believe the Clash of Civilizations that many speak of today will continue to grow. Look at Europe. Where will this go? It seems to be the the ultimate goal for Muslims in Europe is to have the black and white flag of Islam flying over E.U. headquaters in Brussels. What do we as Christians do about this? Let it slide until Western democracies are choked by Muslim anger, frustation and violence?
Michael O.
Michael,
We do what we should always do, proclaim the Truth in love. After that we let the chips fall where they may.
In Christ,
Thomas
Thomas,
I wish it were that simple. If you were a U.S. policy-maker you may have to be a bit more specific about your reaction. You may be taking the Nevil Chamberlain approach, as I think we all may be better off with that of Churchill.
Best,
Michael O.
Michael O.,
Ah! but you asked, "What do we as Christians do about this?" and I answered that question. If you are now asking "What do we do as a U.S. policy maker?" That is a different question and one that I am not equipped to answer.
However, I would still say that ultimately the only way to change policy and the course of history is to change individual's hearts one at a time, and the only way to do that is to speak the Truth in love. Present them the gospel and let God direct the rest. Simplistic but effective.
In Christ,
Thomas
Michael
I have the greatest respect for you because God has found you worthy locate you amidst fire. I thank God for his mercy on me.
I understand the logic behind the *just war,* and I understand Chamerlin and Churchill analogy. I understand you have the right to justly choose your perspective.
I also understand that JP II asked the US to consider peace as an option... I think there is good scriptural reason "see below" but one must have immense faith. I also understand the as the greatest empire in the world attempted to kill the Catholic church literally... thru the blood/faith of those early saints, the Roman empire fell by God's grace.
May I share with you a passage that came to me as I was discussing with my 7 yr old a *just* potential *playground* retaliation to a couple bullys. By the way I am a firm fearer of temporal punishment.
We reviewed this passage: Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
When I was a kid I would have creamed these bullys... physically. But my 7 yr old got out of God's way and prayed for the bullys... who didn't change a whole lot. The first then broke the arm that he was striking my kid with... he just slipped. The other that was slide tackling in soccer just lost his glasses on *field* day and they can't be found... he wont be playing soon.
In Love
when we were one
Readers,
I would like to ask you to re-visit your thoughts and perceptions on U.S. policies in the Middle East. Consider the Arab Christians and their lives throughout the region. These Christians have been lost in the midst of the West’s “war on terror” and Washington, D.C.’s close relationship with Israel. Washington politicians (many of whom are Christian) have neglected the Christians in the Palestinian territories at the cost of our defense of Israel and all of its policies of expansion. The Palestinian Christian families have suffered greatly at the mighty hand of Jewish expansion policies into East (Arab) Jerusalem and the West Bank (all these moves of expansion run against stated U.S. policies). Readers must realize that determined Jewish groups are pushing Christians out of the Holy Land. The Holy Land will no longer be holy if the Israelis push all Christians out. U.S. politicians don’t dare to challenge the Israeli lobby in DC, therefore the Israeli army and Jewish settlers can take Christian Palestinian lands, homes, and business interests. Most Israelis are good people, but the most influencial are working to secure a Greater Israel that excludes non-Jews from obtaining equal rights and access to power.
The evangelical (Dobson and Pat Robertson) giants aren’t interested in the Christians in the Middle East. Robertson prays with the Jews in Jerusalem, but not the Christians. It seems that the traditional churches need to bring attention to the realities on the ground. Anglicans, Lutherans, Catholics, Presbyterians, and Orthodox Christians need to bring their opinions to their representatives in Congress. We have our duty to educate Washington, D.C. on matter of importance to Christians and U.S. national security.
Michael O
Michael O,
The Vatican has condemned the war in Iraq as immoral. They have repeatedly said that the conditions of a just war have not been met. In what way do you wish Catholics to alter their position?
Or are you perhaps asking the numerous American Catholic apologists, priests, and defenders of the faith who ignore Vatican declarations to reconsider their position and start listening to the wisdom of the Vatican? If that is the case, I would add a hearty amen to your request.
Speaking of Dobson, are you aware that he has publicly stated that the practice of masturbation is NOT sinful?
Burnt,
The Vatican has been a leading light in developing intelligent policies. It has arguably the best intelligence network in the world, and the best of intentions. CIA directors used to brief Pope John Paul II on the most sensitive intelligence against the Soviet Union – the U.S. trusts the Vatican’s opinion. However, there are a few Italians in the Vatican today that have a strong (pre-W. Bush) dislike for anything American. These select few tend to bring the Vatican’s voice too far to the wobbly-kneed, misguided liberal agenda. Not all Vatican priests have the spine and guts of John Paul II.
Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Dr. Dobson and Ron Parsley are all determined to do what they believe is right. They are Christian men who have made contribution to Christ’s mission on earth. That being said, their ideas about Christ’s second coming pending the creation of the third temple on Jerusalem’s Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount are misguided and have become a bleeding sore in our interests in the region. The Israeli lobby in Washington has the full support of U.S. evangelicals because of these men, and so the Israeli army feels as though it can operate against non Jews in an inhuman fashion. If these evangelicals would see how the Palestinian Christians live at the mighty hand of the “Jews only in Greater Israel” Israelis, their confidence is those leaders would melt.
On your last question about the teachings of Dr. Dobson: Yes, that act is sinful in nature. But, I believe that while Dobson is in the midst of that sin while dreaming about miraculous Israeli army victories against Christian Lebanese neighborhoods, the sin is that much worse.
Michael O.