DeoOmnisGloria.com

Just a quick note- the vast majority of Protestants don't believe in the rapture theory. It is mostly fundamentalists who propagate that theory.

God bless,
Laura Davidson, MI

As protestant I was never really inerested in the Left behind series, kinda reminded me of the Planet of the Apes or some other scifi post apocalyptic world. Granted the left behing stuff is not very scriptual but neither is that purgatory stuff....

Stan,
I recommend you read this article showing that purgatory is in the Bible.

God bless,
Jay

Jay,

In a word Wow, that is one big talkback. Half way through I got tired of reading all the comments, but here is what I gathered:

As a born again, I believe that through Jesus my sins have been forgiven and that Idea that I could make up for it by spending time in a place before heaven is offensive. I do believe in judgment but I believe I will be represented by Christ. The simplest salvation story I can give you is the guy hanging on the cross next Jesus. How much time did he spend in purgatory, did he not join the Lord in Paradise that day.

I think part of your problem is those protestant who live like the devil and claim Christ. The word is clear on what their judgement will be. Unfortunately there are many catholics who live like the devil and claim the sacraments as protection. They will suffer a similar fate.

I think most Protestants agree on God's judgement and that nothing foul shall enter heaven but it doesn't mean we should accept the waiting room idea of Purgatory.

BTW, could youexplain in your view on the Passion of the Christ? It is our view that Chrits as evident in Messianc phrophecies was the great attoinment for the worlds sins.

Stan,

Purgatory does not do anything in derrogation of Christ's sacrifice. It simply acknowledges that most Christians are not perfect when they die. Thus, while their sins are not counted against them, they still must be perfect to enter Heaven (i.e. their wills must be perfectly alligned with God's). That perfection comes by being fully conformed to the image of Christ. It is no different the someone on earth being made over in Christ's image. It does not happen overnight; it takes years of discipline and putting to death the sinful desires. And most of all, it is not easy or comfortable. In fact, it requires us to forgo comfort. Purgatory simply acknowledges that while some few may complete this process on earth, most do not. Thus, when we die, we finish the disciplinary process of being made perfect. This has been described as coming into the burning presence of God; that is why Paul says that people who do not build up good works may still be saved, but only as one passing through the fire. This fire is not the same as Hell; Hell is the absence of God. Instead, the fire is the very presence of God that necessarily burns away our imperfections, just like gold in a refining pot. Soooooo, the key is to understand that Purgatory has nothing to do with salvation and everything to do with purification!

In Christ,
Dave

Dave,

Hmmm... Ok forgive me but I'm a little confused, I get the concept of a refining fire and God's judgement. I don't get the time thing, or specifically how waiting in limbo somewhere would make you pure. I know there are instances such as Moses and his 40 yrs in the desert but that was because the sins of that generation were too great and next would be let into the promised land.

Dave and Jay,

We will never be perfect. Christ died at the cross for our imperfections. What is so hard to understand? He was bruised for our iniquities. Don't you get it? Christ is all we need. The criminal at the cross accepted Christ right before dying. He went to heaven. He didn't go to purgatory and he certainly had no time to do any "works", but he did go to Heaven. Nothing but the blood of Jesus will get you into heaven. TRULY accepting Him as Lord and Savior will get you into heaven. If the Lord is truly in your heart...guess what..you will do good works. Not because of who you are, but because of who he is.

Stan,

Limbo is a human term. Purgatory exists outside of time, so that concept really does not work well.

In Christ,
Dave

Dave,

Please explain where the criminal at the cross went? Did he go to purgatory?

SandT,
He went to Heaven - where Jesus said he was going.

God bless,
Jay

SandT,

Please explain where Jesus went when he died. Since you claim that the thief went straight to Heaven, and since Christ said "today you will be with ME", does that mean Christ also went straight to Heaven? Just curious how consistent you are going to be here.

In Christ,
Dave

Dave,

We all know Jesus descended to hell. So are you implying that the thief went to hell as well? Is hell where purgatory is?

SandT,

consider: the holy trinity, the father the son, and the holy spirit. three individuals, yet still one single. thus when the theif on the cross dies, he truly is with Jesus in heaven, as well as Jesus being in hell. try to think a little ourside the box here, our Father is omnipresent, omniscent, and omnipotent. true Jesus was a man, and true he may not have had all those omni qualities while here on earth (or did he? his salvation is eternal, it moves forward and backward through time...) but after he dies, all the gloves come off, he no longer is an inhabitant of the world, who is to say he could not be in many many places at once? i think that trying to say that "he did this and this only" is too limiting, and tries to humanize the entire concept of omni.

peace be with you,
Rob

Thanks, Rob. SandT, that is really what I am getting at. You are looking at the thief on the cross and trying to say "Aha, that proves no purgatory!" Now, first off, that ignores some very basic Catholic teaching on the conditions of purgatory and the state of the soul right after baptism (or baptism by desire in the thief's case). But I am trying to get you to see something bigger than the Church's teaching on an individual point; I am trying to get you to argue your points with some measure of consistency. You cannot use the Bible verse you identify to, on the one hand, claim that the thief went straight to Heaven and then turn around and claim that Jesus went into Hell after He died. Notice that I am not saying that it did not happen. But your literalistic view of the Bible verse is directly contradicted by other verses that tell us Jesus went to Hell after He died. So, clearly, when Jesus said "Today, you will be with me in Paradise," He was saying something more and slightly different than "as soon as you die, you and me will be in Heaven together, with no stops along the way."

Sooo, broaden your horizons. There is a limited breadth to the Bible. But its depth is limitless, and as your knowledge of Scripture grows and your relationship with the Lord deepens, so does the depth of your understanding (and mine too). Regarding purgatory, just so that you know, the Church has made very few dogmatic statements on the subject, and they are all somewhat general. I have my own opinions, but here is the basic truth: we are saved by grace through faith, which is meaningless if not accompanied by works. Having received grace, we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The large majority of us will continue in sin until the day we die (I know that I'm not perfect yet; how about you?). Nothing imperfect will enter Heaven. Imperfection can be described as either the existence of sin or the proclivity to sin. Christ's sacrifice wipes out the former, but clearly not the latter since we all continue to sin. Yet as we grow in our Christian walk, that proclivity grows smaller and smaller if we are actively carrying our cross, disciplining ourselves, and seeking God's will.

With all of this as background, my own thought is that purgatory is a place of further discipline where any remaining proclivity in my soul towards sin is "burned away" by adopting the sufferings of Christ and fully abdicating my own will to that of God. Thus trained to be fully focused on and obedient to God, I can enter Heaven. This fire is actually the love and presence of God, which is like a refining fire to imperfection. Just as Paul says, it will burn away my empty works. This is both painful and beneficial. It also will take effort on my part; but then again believing in God in the first place takes effort on my part, so this shouldn't really be a big surprise.

In Christ,
Dave

Rob,
God is omni everything. The original question was where did the criminal go after dying? Did he go to purgatory? I was then asked where did Jesus go after he died. The truth is, Jesus went to hell. I am awaiting to see the relevance of this point in reference to purgatory and the criminal.

Be blessed

Dave,
I have a question, did Jesus, after going to hell, go to heaven before rising again on earth?

consider this:

heaven, hell, prugatory, places removed from time, with no temporal limitations. the thief dies, and goes to purgatory, he is cleansed. he then receives entrance into the kingdom. how long here on earth does this take? if the only reason we experience time as another plane of existance, is because it is a perception based upon the mind, (for example,experimentation we have found that time is just a perception, and we have an "innate" sense of it, which is altered to suit our psychological status, or state of awareness") but in our glorified bodies we have no subconcious, or other aspect that is "of the flesh" thus we are no longer subject to time in any way. thus, how long is a day in purgatory? how long is an eternity? would not time be all and forever, as well as short and never? if we consider that heaven is removed from earthly constraints such as time, then we also conclude that other places of spirit, hell, purgatory etc. are as well. based off of this, then its not only possible, but reasonable to assume, that though the theif was cleansed by fire, and spent his time in purgatory, he was also, in the same day, with the Father and Son in heaven. this alos falls in line with the idea that if the realms of spirit are removed from time, as well as God being OMNI, then Jesus would have been in all places at all times, as well as our Father.

i hope this makes sense, its kind of crazy, but i really feel that its important to try to understand that applying the spiritual realms, and anything having to do with them, to our basic understandings of dimensions, we are humanizing them, and FORCING them to be the way we attempt to perceive them to be. when this is clearly stated over and over again, that we will never truly even begin to ever understand, until such time as we receive our glorified bodies, if even then.

Rob J.

Yet more good points, Rob. I understood exactly what you are saying. SandT, is this making any sense? There is a reason that the Church has not made many definitive statements on Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory. Really, they have been limited to the existence of them and the issue of who goes where. Even this latter issue has been only vaguely identified. Basically, those who do not die in God's grace go to Hell. Those who have been completely "perfected" while on earth go straight to Heaven. Those who have not been fully perfected, but die in God's grace and forgiveness, will go to purgatory. That's pretty much it.

SandT, the Bible doesn't say exactly what else Jesus may or may not have done after He died. There are certain things that we know and others that we do not. The Bible does not say where else the thief on the cross may or may not have gone. Some people in the Church say that he went straight to Heaven. Others say he went through the refining fire. Still others say that even the perfect go through the refining fire, but it doesn't do anything to them because they need no refining. Are you catching on? Unless and until the Church gives us a dogmatic statement on this issue, it's not something I'm going to get too worried about. For me, the key is to work towards that perfection that Christ commanded. Have a blessed Easter!

In Christ,
Dave

Rob,

What you wrote is all supported not by what Jesus said, but by assuming. Jesus said this day that the thief would be in Heaven. Jesus said this day while in this earthly realm talking to man.
Jesus said "this day."
The thief was a sinner as we all are. By his own admission, he deserved his death. But at some point, he recognized that Christ was truly the messiah. He accepted Christ and asked the Lord to remember him when Jesus got to His Kingdom. Jesus said "this day" that the thief would be with him. Forgiveness by the blood of Christ would be his.
Now we know that Christ was the sacrifice for our atonement of sin.
The thief did not need to do any good works. He had no chance to do a good work. Yet forgiveness was his. As for purgatory, there is no mention by Christ of a pit stop for the thief. Either way, we can skip all of this because we know that Jesus went to hell, got the keys then he went to heaven as our high priest to get face to face with the Father.
Anyways, we all know that Jesus died before the thief did. Before they broke his leg, Christ died. No one knows how long Christ spent in hell, it could have been 1 second to 100 hrs. But the point is, the criminal did not die at the same time as Christ. Christ said he that thief would be in paradise that day, with Him. By the time Christ got the keys and got to heaven, is it not possible that the thief could have still been gasping his last breaths?

Dave,

According to Jay and Joe, the thief went straight to heaven.

Thanks, Jeff. If you review my comment on Apr. 10 at 1:51 p.m., I acknowledge that the Church by and large agrees with Jay and Joe on this point. As I so often do (with little success thus far), I am trying to get people to look beyond the limited question of the day to look at their method for answering the questions. SandT's method is inherently flawed because it betrays her own position. Jesus said, "Today you will be with me in paradise." SandT says that it is therefore indisputable that the thief went straight to heaven. Using SandT's interpretive mode, it is also indisputable that Christ went straight to heaven ("you will be with me"). Yet we know for a fact that Christ descended into hell. So, while SandT may be correct on the ultimate point, a point that the Church generally agrees with her on (though no dogmatic statements have been made and there are many who disagree), she arrives at that conclusion in a very unsatisfactory manner. It is logically incoherent. Is any of this making sense? Sometimes I wonder if it only makes sense to me.

In Christ,
Dave

Dave,
First, I am a he:)
I just stick to what scripture says. Jesus did not say "you will be with me today", he said "you will be with me IN paradise today"
Christ specified paradise in particular.
How is that illogical?
Second, we know that the criminial died after Jesus. How long after? The Bible does not say. We can go to outside sources on theories on how long it takes one to die on a cross, but let's stick with Scriptures.
You say that my view is wrong because I should assume that Christ went straight to heaven. However, I don't assume anything, scripture shows that Christ descended to hell.
Once again, is it not possible that as the criminal was breathing his last breaths, that Jesus already went to heaven?

Congratulations, SandT! You have found a way. Jesus died, went to Hell for about an hour, shot back up to heaven in time to be with the thief, then back down to Earth, then up to heaven again. Of course you have to get around the Matthew 12:40 problem (Jesus says he would spend three days in the heart of the earth), but I'm sure you will find a way to interpret that as well.

I'm curious, did you ever think about what we have been saying to you that God lives outside of time? Did you ever read II Pet. 3:8? Consider that the author of Hebrews says that "today" means the entirety of human history. See chapters 3 and 4. These terms are really very malleable...

In Christ,
Dave

P.S. Sorry about the gender problem! :)

Dave,

Did the thief go to purgatory? Yes or no?

I don't know. How's that for committal?! But Jay, Joe, and most of the Church say no. I'm inclined to respect the weight of authority on this position.

On the other hand, my understanding of things suggests that the thief's proclivity towards sin would not be eliminated simply by his "baptism by desire." This is decidely not what the Church teaches, however. Basic Church teaching is that immediately after baptism you are not only spotless, but have a perfected soul to boot. It's a pretty sweet deal.

In Christ,
Dave

Dave,
I am going to quote you.
"On the other hand, my understanding of things suggests that the thief's proclivity towards sin would not be eliminated simply by his "baptism by desire." This is decidely not what the Church teaches, however. Basic Church teaching is that immediately after baptism you are not only spotless, but have a perfected soul to boot. It's a pretty sweet deal."

Now, Jay, Joe and the Catholic church do believe that the thief went straight to heaven. Jay on other parts of the website has supported this fact.
I quote you because you point out a contradiction. You believe that teachings of Catholicism indicate that in order to be made pure, it is after baptism by water.
However,the thief was not baptised nor did he do any good works. Lets look at Father Mateo from CIN.com has to say about it.

The Good Thief "identified" with Christ, as our modern jargon has it.
He perfectly humbled himself and he praised the Lord. He witnessed to
Christ under the most adverse of circumstances (v. 41). He prayed the
Lord, at least implicitly, for salvation and final perseverance. He
achieved such perfect union with the atoning death of Christ that all
his sins and the temporal punishment due to them were forgiven at
once. There was no need of Purgatory for him.

This Dave is what most Catholics believe. You can check for yourself.
You insist that I contradict myself. I believe that the Bible is the truth. I believe that salvation is a gift from God. No works, no acts can earn it. All you need is Jesus. Accept Him WITH YOUR HEART, and forgivness and mercy are yours. If one does that, then good works will be done by that person, through the power of Christ within them.
However, your beliefs are that there are but so many ways to be perfected. Examples being Sacraments, Baptism by Water and whatever else may be. None of which the thief was able to do. Yet the Catholic church(at least Father Mateo) believes that the thief achieved perfect union with the atoning death of Christ by praying. Was this an exception Dave? Do you see the contradiction?
Salvation does not come by any act one can do. It does not come because you repented seconds before you die. It is a gift from God to those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and have accepted Him into their hearts.

Be blessed

Dave, Jay, Sandt and all concerned,

Thanks for the discussion on the issue. From what I can see the argument has been exhausted. I don't believe there is a purgatory but I believe in a refining fire after death and some sort of judgement. I think part of the problem is the cultural backlash towards Catholic history. The stories of indulgences and the modern day practice of mobsters and other criminals seeking absoloution by paying money to the Church disgust the public at large. So when someone mentions purgatory however valid it may be the image of courruption is the first thing that pops into our head. I wish I could come to the bible and to God with out my preconcieved notions but it's not easy. They affect the way I worship and follow God. For that matter I don't believe in the infalibilty of the Church either. Not really because of any biblical study but because of the nature of man and history of the church. I think just saying that something is so because because of a bishop or centruies old doctrine is not right. On the other hand I believe in the authority of Godly men and I don't think a church and can function as a body with out it. The reason why protestants cling to scripture so much is because it doesn't have a bad day or get jealous or creative. Scripture has pretty much stuck to its guns for so long while many have abused it, it hasn't had to have any reforms or have to apologize for wrong doings. I don't believe that the holy spirit only brings truth via the scriptures and just believe its a bench mark. God's message is consitent with it self, if someone breaks that consitency how can we believe him.

SandT,

None of what you said made any sense. I have already admitted to what you so vehemently try to use against me as some sort of weapon! There is nothing contradictory about it. The Church has always taught that the thief (and similarly situated persons) are indeed an exception. It is called "baptism by desire," meaning that if you would have been baptized had you the opportunity, and you believed in your heart, then baptism is credited to you. What is so hard to understand about that? After all, righteousness was credited to Abraham in advance of Christ's death.

You make some very poor statements, especially when you say, "Salvation does not come by any act one can do. It does not come because you repented seconds before you die. It is a gift from God to those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and have accepted Him into their hearts." This doesn't even make sense. First you say that it doesn't come because you repent. (I have never heard any Protestant say that in my life!) Then you say it comes if you believe and accept Him. SandT, what on earth do you think belief is??? It is a work, a voluntary act, a choice! It requires effort. The believer must do something (i.e. place all hope in Jesus). The thief didn't give to the poor because he didn't have the opportunity. He did the only work that his life allowed: he believed with his heart and confessed with his tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord. Having committed no sin after that moment, the Church as a whole believes that he went straight to Heaven.

In Christ,
Dave

Dave,

Since there is an obvious misunderstanding on your part, I will clarify. I said that salvation is a gift. The only way to be entitled to that gift is by accepting Christ as Lord and Savior. Yes, you are right, accepting Christ as Savior is an act that you perform. However, the acts I was referring to was what we refer to as works(i.e. giving to the poor). My point was that the thief went to heaven because he repented and accepted Christ as Lord and Savior. Not because he repented and confessed Christ as Savior AS Christ was being crucified. Sorry, if I didn't make my points clear.
Now my understanding of your belief is that as long as one repents with their heart (i.e. someone who is breathing their last breaths) then dies...that person will go to heaven as long as they did not commit any sin afterwards. Could you show me another example in the Bible of someone who was "baptised by desire."

Be blessed

Matthew 5:27
"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28, But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

The point is, we are in no position to say if someone is sinning or not, unless we see them in action. Are they sinning with there heart and mind,we cannot read there minds. So we can only go by the fruits they bear, and even than we don't know, only the Lord knows.

I think its hard for people to comprehend that life eternal is a gift. People feel like they have to do something for it. Its a natural way to think. I feel like I owe someone a favor when they do something for me. But we are talking about something on a different level here. We can't do anything to please God except to Do the Romans 10:9 Confession of faith. The "Work" that God wants is just that(Confessing Jesus as Lord and Saviour)and being like Christ.

1 CORINTHIANS 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are Gods.

God Bless
Simon

Everyone quit babbling. John 3 says that salvation comes through water and the spirit. As humans we never have been and we never will be perfect. However, through salvation (Being reborn, John 3) we are made perfect in Christ. We are washed clean by the blood he shed. The only clear references I see in the bible as far as where we will be after death is heaven or hell. No other realm is flat out mentioned. You never hear Christ say the word purgatory. He is very specific. There is only one way into heaven and that is through Christ (His own words). One way into hell, through Satan. One good, one evil, one Christ, one Satan, one Heaven, one Hell. Nothing in between.

Babs,
Actually the Bible is pretty clear on purgatory: it exists! I recommend reading this article detailing the Biblical references to purgatory. Let me know what you think of the points made.

God bless,
Jay

Babs,

Some other words Christ never said: Trinity, polygamy, abortion, original sin, Christian, and many more. The game of "Christ never said that" is as foolish as it is catchy. Let's stop this nonsense.

On the other hand, when we play the opposite game, we can see that Christ COMMANDS that we "Be perfect, therefore, even as I am perfect." Let's see, Babs says we'll never be perfect yet Christ commands that we be perfect. No disrespect, Babs, but I'm going to stick with Christ on this one.

In Christ,
Dave

It's sad that while we share the same faith in Christ Jesus, we also divide this Christian family by judging each other. I will never fully understand how Catholics or Protestants can look to each other in bitter judgement while we all really are trying to follow Jesus. Think about letting go of these old ways by reconsidering what you say and do. Let's celebrate our shared faith in Christ. There is great beauty in all the churches.

There cannot be a such thing as a secret rapture. The Bible already tells us in Revelation 1:7 that every eye will see Jesus in his glory.

Post a comment