March 02, 2004
Questions about The Passion of the Christ?
It seems that there are a lot of questions about Mel Gibson’s movie The Passion of the Christ - particularly the symbolism and characters involved. For those who haven’t seen it, the movie is full of Christian symbolism and includes many of the characters that Catholics might know, but others may not of hear of. So, I thought I would point out a few of the bigger issues and open the discussion to any other questions that readers have. We aren’t promising anything, but we’ll give our thoughts (and back them up) as to why something happened in the movie. Now for the basic questions I keep hearing:
Why does Satan carry a malformed baby?
From what I’ve read, this is the biggest question surrounding the movie. This comes as Jesus is being scourged and is quite shocking to the unsuspecting viewer. Initially, we interpreted this as sin (the spawn of the devil), but other metaphors might be more appropriate. First, Satan is attempting to get Jesus to give in. At this point in the movie, Mary watches and is unable to comfort her Son, who is being beaten severely. Satan is representing himself as the opposite of the Madonna and Child. Gibson has also offered an interpretation: “it’s a distortion of what is good.”
Was the real passion that violent?
In a word: Yes. Gibson actually did quite a lot of background study to make sure that he was accurately depicting how the passion would have taken place. Notice that those opposed to the violence and gore tend not to suggest that it isn’t realistic, it is. Jesus did go through that torment to save your soul.
Why the emphasis on the Last Supper?
In the film, Gibson does a brilliant job of juxtaposing the Crucifixion with the Last Supper – this is a real key to understanding Christ’s sacrifice. At the Last Supper the apostles were celebrating the Jewish Passover, in which they were required to sacrifice a perfect lamb, without blemish, rub the lamb’s blood on the top and sides of their door and consume the entire lamb. The entire Passover included four cups of wine which was drunk by the participants. At the Last Supper, the apostles ate the flesh of Jesus, the Real Lamb of God, and drank His blood in order to save them. In the movie, Gibson shows the bread arriving at the table covered in a cloth, as the cloth is removed, Jesus’ garments are ripped off. As the bread is raised, Jesus is raised on the cross. Why? Because Jesus is the Lamb that we must consume – in John 6, Jesus tell us we must eat [the word is ‘gnaw’] His flesh and drink His blood. He made the Passover a real meal filled with grace through His crucifixion. And on the cross, Jesus drank the fourth cup of the Passover (ending the Passover meal) and proclaimed “It is finished.” Thanks be to God. Gibson clearly showed the creation of the Eucharist by Jesus.
Why is so much shown about Mary?
Mary has an important role within Christianity. She alone gave her assent to God that she would allow herself to bear the role of the new Ark of the Covenant and give birth to the Word of God. Remember, the Bible notes that all will call Mary “blessed.” It is a recent phenomenon that attempts to reduce the role of Mary to that of any other human. How many people do you know that would have said “Yes” when their whole life would likely be destroyed? Mary is depicted in Revelation as the Queen of Heaven and she is given an appropriate role in this movie – that of the sorrowful mother watching the beating and death of her Son.
Who were the other players?
The first would be St. Veronica who wiped the face of Christ while He struggled toward Calvary. Veronica's Veil is the cloth with which she wiped the face of Jesus - it is enshrined in St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. Another would be Simon of Cyrene who is in the Bible (Matt 27:32, Mark 15:21, Luke 23:26) helped carry the cross of Jesus. Although we don't know if Simon became a Christian, we can surmise from the Biblical notes that his sons did.
Any other questions? Post any questions below and we will make a valiant attempt to answer them. I have also heard that this is an excellent book on the movie and what it means - I haven’t read the book, but it sounds very good.
God bless,
Jay
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Is there significance to the crow and the prisoner or was this added simply for effect?
Posted by: Deborah at March 8, 2004 09:44 AMDeborah,
Good question. The crow actually plucked out the eye of the other thief on the cross. This is meant to symbolize the spiritual blindness of the prisoner through physical blindness. It was an interesting creative touch.
God bless,
Jay
What was the symbolism when both Mary's wiped up the blood of Jesus, with the white lines cloth and also with Mary's head piece, after he was whipped? Also where is this stated or mentioned in the Bible? Thanks
Posted by: Barb at March 8, 2004 12:53 PMSome artistic license was certainly taken with the depiction of the demons haunting Judas Iscariot. I believe the first one shows up under the bridge that Jesus is tossed over, and then there are the "demon children." Were these intended to represent his inner "demons" -- guilt, regret, etc. -- or were they meant literally as demons? The former would make more sense to me.
Regarding the children throwing stones at Judas and chasing him, what is this based on, if anything? Why would they do this to him, as they certainly would not have understood his guilt? Were they posessed, and if so, isn't that stretching things a bit far? Or did they not exist in reality at all, but only in Judas' guilt-wracked mind?
Posted by: insomni at March 8, 2004 01:03 PMWho gave Jesus a cup of water that was kicked away from Him before He was crucified?
Posted by: diane at March 8, 2004 03:09 PMWhat about the rotting donkey by the tree where Judas hung himself? Where did that come from?
Posted by: Susan at March 8, 2004 05:20 PMWhat language(s) was spoken in the movie? Everyone I ask tells me Latin. Is that the ONLY language spoken in the movie?
Thank you!
Posted by: Janice at March 9, 2004 12:08 PMPlease explain the hell scene.
Hell was portrayed, as cold not hot and unbearable. Skeletons were shown lying around not people who are in agony and tormented forever as scriptures tells us.
The other language was Aramaic, a version of Hebrew spoken by the Jews of Jesus time.
Posted by: John at March 9, 2004 05:28 PMWow, there are a lot of questions here and very few answers. Let me try to shed some light on a few of them.
What was the symbolism of the two Marys wiping up Jesus' blood after his scouraging and is it found in scripture?
Although this scene is not found in scriptures, I believe that it brings across a very good point, namely, that Jesus' blood is so very precious, since with this blood he redeemed the world. It reminds the viewer to never take Jesus' blood (sacrifice) for granted. I'm sure more can be found here, but that's my take on it.
What was up with the demon children, who bothered Judas?
I think that the movie clearly shows that the demon children were just that, demons. They were not real kids possessed by demons, but demons who presented themselves as teasing kids to Judas only . This is evident in the scene where Judas is surrounded by the demon kids in the desert, along with satan, and suddenly they all disappear. Judas even recognizes them as lesser demons when he calls them "little satans." Another interesting interpretation could be that the children represent all of the little sins, such as love of money, power, etc, that built up to Judas' graver sins, betraying Jesus, despairing, and committing suicide. The scene with the children and satan in the desert circling around Judas basically is a personification of Judas' little sins, along with their father (satan), reveling in the fact that they had led Judas to his fall.
Who gave Jesus the cup of water on his way to be crucified?
Veronica, the same person who wiped Jesus' face with her veil, also attempts to give Jesus a glass of water. Veronica is considered a saint by the Catholic Church and her act of compassion has been remembered and recalled through Church tradition. Her veil is safeguarded in St. Peter's Basilica, Vatican City.
What's up with the dead donkey where Judas hangs himself?
I think the dead donkey, which can be assumed to be the same donkey upon which Jesus triumphantly rode into Jerusalem, is used to foreshadow Jesus' death. It also contributes, along with other things, to impart to Judas the horrific outcome of his betrayal, which, once realized, leads him to hang himself. This scene is completely artistic and I guess we'll all have to wait for the DVD to completely understand Mel's reasoning for using it.
What's up with the depiction of hell?
I think what must be understood about depicting hell is that it can't be depicted in anyway since it is in a spiritual plain. Nothing material or physical makes up hell. The descriptions of heat and fire in the scriptures are their to impart to the reader some idea of intense suffering with which they can understand to some degree what hell is like. I think a depiction of a red hell with flames would be out of place in the movie, since it has been attempted so many times in other movies. Hell, as a desert wasteland, is used in the scene to symbolize the devil's defeat and how he is stripped of his power, in other words, left barren, just like the desert.
I hope these answers are helpful and lead others to a deeper appreciation of this great film. I can't wait for the DVD.
God Bless,
Josh
I thought that the significance of the two Marys cleaning up the blood in the courtyard was that Jews need to buried with all their body and blood intact(according to Jewish law.) So the blood soaked linens would be entombed with Jesus.
Posted by: Michael at March 9, 2004 11:42 PMWhat is the symbolism of the snake satan sends over to Jesus in the garden? How about the one in his nose?
Posted by: Dee at March 10, 2004 04:04 PMI'd like to know where in Revelations is the reference to Mary as the Queen of Heaven?
Thanks.
Posted by: Judy at March 10, 2004 05:26 PMJudy,
Check out Revelation chapter 12. The woman with a crown on her head who gives birth to a male child that will rule the nations with an iron scepter. Some say that the woman is the church or the nation of Israel. While Catholic doctrine teaches that Mary is seen in both of these ideas, the passage in Revelation most clearly refers to Mary for two reasons: first, the woman has actual pain as she gives birth, and second, the woman has other "offspring" against whom Satan makes war (the offspring clearly referring to the Church, meaning that the woman could not be the Church in the strict sense of the word). The woman could not literally be Israel, as the woman is protected from the Serpent and clearly seen as holy. Those holy Israelites would have been members of the Church (i.e. other offspring). Those not so holy were subjected to terrible havoc in the destruction of the temple.
In Christ,
Dave
as pope say it is as done
Posted by: hany vic at March 10, 2004 06:17 PMwhy there a hole in cross before nailing his right hand
mistake shot or not ?
Me again.
Was Christ's journey to the cross following the 14 Stages of the Cross?
Thanks.
Judy
I'm not catholic, so my view of Mary may be a little different...as far as the wiping of the blood on the floor, I think that is exactly what a mother would do; she would never leave a part of her child behind. Since Mary could not be with Jesus at least she was able to be close to his blood. The wiping of the blood was a pure act of motherly love. As far as the snake at the garden, it comes from Genesis ....he will bruise his heal,and He will crush his head- reference to Jesus defeating Satan
Posted by: Madeline at March 10, 2004 11:19 PMJudy again. I meant Stations of the Cross, not Stage.
Sorry!!
Who was the little man with the evil grin in Satan's arms
Posted by: Shelly at March 11, 2004 06:45 PMWho was the little man with the evil grin in Satan's arms
Posted by: Shelly at March 11, 2004 06:45 PMHany vic - I think the hole in the wood was on purpose as a guide for the nail to go through. Gibson did quite a lot of research on how crucifixions were performed at the time of Christ, which is probably where he got that tidbit of information. It would certainly be easier to nail it through that way.
Judy - Yes, Gibson did follow the Stations of the Cross in this movie, which I think made it that much more powerful.
Shelly - I believe you are referencing the distorted baby that we discuss in the original post. It was a powerful image that most don't forget! See above for answers.
God bless,
Jay
Gibson says "according to the psalmist, you couldn't even recognize him (Jesus) as human"
Could you help me find this source?
This is actually a reference to Isaiah 52:14, not Psalms.
In Christ,
Dave
I appreciate your efforts to answer questions, however, i believe that we should not add or take away from the scriptures, i mean, that Mary played an incredible role in the scriptures, but she is not to be worshipped.Yes, she was incredibly obedient to God and i am so thankful. Remember though that God does not need humans to fulfill His plan, He would have provided a savior even if Mary said no. She was a virgin when she gave birth to our Lord, Jesus, but then went on with her life and married Joseph and had other children, the natural way. She lived and she died. Only Jesus died and then rose again and lives and He and only He is worthy of our praise.Please ask God to open your eyes to that so that you have nothing interfering with your relationship with the true living God. Also, it is Isreal, in Revelation and not Mary. Please study more and ask God to show you the truth. He will. God Bless You!
Posted by: Carol at March 18, 2004 04:01 PMCarol,
Who is the woman's "other" offspring in that case?
In Christ,
Dave
Why do Catholics pray to Mary? Though the Bible does say to pray for each other, it never says to pray to Mary, only to pray to God. I believe that if Christ has wanted us to pray to his earthly mother, he would have told us to do.
Posted by: Madeline at March 21, 2004 02:22 PMMadeline,
When we "pray" to Mary, we are in fact responding to Christ's desire that we pray for one another and support one another. We are not giving Mary worship or adoration; we actually just talking to her and asking for her prayers, much as we do to our mother or father. After all, as Christ said from the Cross, "Behold, your mother." The real problem is whether or not you believe Christ? Didn't He declare that He has conquered death? Do you think His apostles were misleading us when they say "Where oh Death is your victory? Where oh Death is your sting?" Don't you believe them when they boldly declare that nothing, not life or death, can separate us from Christ's love?
If you believe in Sacred Scripture, then you believe that both the living and the dead are untied to Christ. And if to Christ, then to one another, for that is why we are called His Body. So why would you treat half of Christ's Body as though it does not exist? And at that, the most Holy part of His Body, since they have already passed out of their corruptible bodies and into eternity where they no longer fall victim to any sin! Having been made perfect, don't you believe as Revelation tells us that they sit before the throne of God on High, communing with Him night and day?
To believe otherwise is to be steeped in superstition--to remain trapped in the world's view of death. Christ has conquered death, which has no power to separate us any longer from our elder brethren. If you draw on your family for support, know that it is the saints who are the strongest members of your family and it is the righteous whom the Scripture describes as having the most powerful prayers. Ask them to pray for you to the Lord our God. It is in communion with one another that we can most fully worship our Heavenly Father, and His Son, the Lamb and Bridegroom. That is Scriptural.
In Christ,
Dave
i really liked it and i think mel made a really good decision and God will really bless you mel!!! but i did'nt get the part where satan was holding the baby but that's all.
Dave,
Your comment to Madeline was so appropriate. I think a lot of times catholics get flustered when people ask about Mary, and to read such an articulate answer to the question about 'Mary-worship' is a breath of fresh air.
The pope in the early 1950's declared Mary was devine.
Posted by: Juan at March 24, 2004 02:01 AMJuan,
First, the word is "divine" and second this is a lie. Please cite where this occurred.
This is a ridiculous statement and simply shows your ignorance of (and bias against) Catholicism.
God bless,
Jay
Dave, I do believe in Sacred Scripture, and I do believe in Christ. And though he did say,"Where oh Death is your victory? Where oh Death is your sting." It is my understanding that that is in reference to Christ defeating Satan, and that we will have eternal life in Christ. As to the passage..."nothing can separate us from the love of God,not death or life..." My understanding of that is that nothing will separate us from the love of God while we are alive, or after our death, when our spirit is with the Lord, and at His second coming when our spirit will reunite with our bodies. But, as far "praying" to Mary; I've heard Catholic friends of mine "pray" in both manners. Some have asked Mary to pray for them, and I've heard others actually "pray" to Mary directly. But my question should really have been, not why do Catholics pray to Mary, but why do Catholics believe that the dead can hear them. I can't think of any writings in Scripture that say that we should pray to the dead. There is a verse in Isaiah 63:16 where Isaiah speaks to the Lord, and says,..."Abraham does not know us nor does Isreal acknowlege us..." which seem to tell me that the dead do not hear us. I'm not sure what your point was for quoting Christ at the cross when he says,"Behold your mother." The rest of that passage goes on to say,"From that time on, this disciple took her into his home." Jesus loved His mother,and wanted to make sure that she was taken care of after his death. I'm not sure how you are connecting that to praying to the dead. Funny you saying," To believe otherwise is to be steeped in superstition..." One definition of superstition is: a belief held, despite evidence that it is irrational. Unless you can show me THROUGH SCRIPTURE that we are asked to pray to the dead and ask them to pray for us, then it is you, not me who is steeped in superstition. Madeline
Posted by: Madeline at March 24, 2004 10:00 AMMadeline,
I could show you Scripture, and will in this response... but it will probably be pointless. It appears that you have already made up your mind about the issue. Just as is the case with abortion, polygamy, eugenics, and many other things, the Bible does not directly speak to the issue of prayers to the dearly departed. I have offered you Scriptures already (just as I would do with those other issues), but you reject them because the do not align with your preconceived notions. (This is patently clear by your attempt to explain away the fact that nothing can separate us from Christ). That becomes the real problem. If you cannot and will not see that Scripture might mean something different than what you have always believed, I could give you all the Scripture in the world and you would still not believe. That is precisely why Abraham in his conversation with the dead rich man refused to appear to the living and warn them. Not because he couldn't, but because it would have been pointless--they had already hardened their hearts.
If I am wrong, I would refer you to my article on this subject, Praying to the Saints: Are they really listening? There are numerous Scriptures cited in the article. To that list I will add a couple more. On the fact that the dead are immediately present with Christ, consider Luke 23:43 and II Cor. 5:1-10 (in addition to the Revelation citations). On Abraham not knowing the Jews, read the whole chapter (this is speaking of the fact that the Jews have fallen away from the religion of their forefathers). Regardless, Christ Himself lifted that veil of death. See Ephesians 4:8 and I Pet. 3:20 (in addition to the transfiguration passages). Read the article, all the verses just cited, and all the verses cited in the article. If you still will not see, I understand; it took me four years of bullheadedness before I saw. But consider two things. First, Catholic prayer to the saints can be justified with far more Scripture than you can use to oppose it. Second, Catholic interpretation of Scriptures in this light comports with over 1400 years of how nearly every Christian on the planet interpreted and followed the Scripture.
In Christ,
Dave
P.S. If you would like to respond, please post your comment to the Praying to the Saints article. Thanks.
Posted by: Dave at March 24, 2004 11:33 AMTo Dave,
I pray that God would continue to lead your soul to God's Truth. As far as reading everyone's comments, let's remember that Christ is the key, the center, the LIFE. All other attempts are but foolish and futile. You say you have a grasp of the "Thruth" but the TRUTH shall set you free.
Answer these few questions from a former Catholic.
You pray to the saints and to mary, and you say that's justified by scripture. Even if that were true, How can they hear all your requests? For example, have even a small amount of people talk to you at once and try to then answer all their requests. Let alone get one or two. Now take a thousand or a million requests. Do you see my point! These "saints" are but human and you are treating them if they are Gods! There is only One that can truely hear and answer our petitions
Doesn't scripture say that all children of God are saints?
And where is Joseph, Jesus's dad in the movie?
Jesus is the only way, truth and life!
Chad,
Amen, brother, and thanks for posting. Regarding Christ, as we say in Mass, "Through Him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is Yours, Almighty Father, for ever and ever." All glory to God through Christ our Lord in the unity of the Holy Spirit!
Regarding the question about how the saints can hear us, this is an excellent question. I thought I was the only one who thought about these things. The link I provided directly above your comment is an article that I wrote on that topic. Please check it out by clicking on the "Praying to the Saints" link. I would really appreciate your comments.
Second, both Scripture and the Church say that all of God's faithful are saints. The Church uses her authority to "canonize" saints very sparingly and judiciously. Canonization is simply a process whereby the Church lets the faithful know that a particular person is guaranteed to be in Heaven. It does not in any way exclude others. The Church just does not comment on the salvation of most people, because She does not have enough information about their walk with Christ. That, however, in no way is to say that they are not saints. For every canonized saint, there are probably 10,000 saints who have not been canonized!
Joseph is not mentioned anywhere in the Scriptures during the time of Jesus' ministry. Based upon that and also early Church accounts of the Holy couple, we believe that Joseph was an older man when he married the Virgin and that he passed on while Christ was still a teenager. That is why he is not in the movie.
I hope this helped. Let me know if you have anymore questions.
In Christ,
Dave
I've been reading the comments off and on here and while I see the point of both sides, I must say that GOD, through his son, JESUS, is the only one we should pray to. He is the only one that should be worshiped. AS long as one is NOT worshipping Mary, I see no harm in simply talking to her, however, all prayers should go directly to the LORD himself. I should remind both sides of this debate about one thing though- that faith in our Savior is what counts. We should act good and do good things to show our devotion, but FAITH IN JESUS is the key. Thanks:D
Posted by: Rebecca at March 25, 2004 07:29 PMWhy was Mary able to see Satan?
Posted by: CorrWaveClan at March 27, 2004 07:41 PMwho was claudia? WHere in the Bible does she fit in?
Posted by: mary therese at March 28, 2004 02:05 AMwho was claudia? WHere in the Bible does she fit in?
Posted by: mary therese at March 28, 2004 02:05 AMwho was claudia? WHere in the Bible does she fit in?
Posted by: mary therese at March 28, 2004 02:05 AMAll the discussion of Mary and so-called, "saints", only shows me that attention is being diverted off of Jesus, The Perfect Sacrifice. "We have an Advocate (not advocates) with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous." 1 John 2:1
"They all met together continually for prayer, along with Mary, the mother of Jesus, several other women, and the brothers of Jesus." Acts 1:14 (seems as though Mary waited and prayed just like everyone else)
Besides the fact that it was prophesied, Mary was a virgin because then no one could say perhaps it was a human father who impregnated her. Plus, sin is passed on by the male, and
in order for Jesus to be the Perfect Sacrifice, he had to be sinless, hence God the Father, by His Holy Spirit came upon her. She was an obedient servant, no less human than you or I or David, or Moses, or Elijah, or Joseph, or Peter, or Paul, or any other example you can site. We have all their stories so we can be inspired to live a life of faith and see that they were human just like us, with problems and questions and doubts, just like us. If I thought these people were super humans, I wouldn't have a chance. Only by the blood of Jesus and by His power living in me can I or any of us live the Spirit-filled life. Focus, my friends on Him and get your eyes off all others. See Him and Him only. There is no saint (and yes, all believers are referred to by Paul as saints) or other name in scripture by whom you are saved.
Hallelujah to the Lamb!!!
I would like to know why Satan's hair went flying off when in Hell? What was the symbolism to that?
While you're on the subject of Mary, Chad, why put her name in small caps? Yet another way to diminish her role as Mother of God? She was the only other who was taken to Heaven body & soul as Jesus was. It's called The Feast of the Assumption.
The symbolism is what the bible says in Isaiah 47 1-9 "The Lady of Kingdoms" or what the Catholic church wants to call Mary the "Lady of all Nations". Currently the Vatican under Pope John Paul II wants to elevate Mary to coredemptrix. This means that the church wants to elevate Mary as equal to Christ! This is a great deception for only Jesus Christ saves. The movie shows satan as a woman with a baby, this is an ancient Goddess of Shinar (modern Day Iraq) who was called Tamuz who also was worshiped with a child in her arms. The marian signs are all over the world, and this is the great deception, please read on it. The marian apparitions have appeared all over the world one is at Fatima, Portugal; and her message was "only my immaculate heart can save you", this contradicts scripture for only Christ can save us.
Posted by: Andrea at March 28, 2004 09:17 PMI am sorry to contradict your statement, but Mary the blessed virgin mother of Christ was not bodily assumed to heaven, only Christ has ever done that. The feast of the assumption is Catholic Dogma not scripture, please research this. I know it is difficult to understand the difference between scripture and Dogma, but we must always "Test all things: hold fast what is good" 1 Thessalonians 5:21. If it contradicts scripture and especially Jesus Christ's words we must be careful what we believe as truth. Research, research...
In Jesus Christ's name,
Andrea
"A woman, who is an imposter, would call herself "QUEEN" and head the global counterfiet church in the last days. Rev 17:18;7. Please research and study the bible and look for the signs, study prophecy and you will know just how important this Queen deception will be in these last days. The second Vatican church, Mel Gibson is said to follow the OLD Vatican traditions, wants to make Mary coredemptrix; this is a lie, for only Jesus Christ saves. These Marian apparitions have appeared through out the centuries, but never as now. I urge all of you to seek this knowlegde so that you may all refute this deception. Read scripture and arm yourself with the word of scripture.
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" 2Timothy 4:3-4.
research, read the bible "study on to thyself and make thyself approved unto G-d" 2Timothy 2:15.
Jesus Christ loves us all,
Andrea
Exactly!!!! Where in scripture does it say Mary is divine? Nowhere, for this in not in the bible, this is however Catholic Dogma. We must be aware that Dogma is not scripture, and only Christ is divine not anyone else including Mary the Virgin mother of Christ. Juan please research what the Catholic Church stands for, religious Dogma is not what Christ the Lord Jesus wanted us to follow, we need to follow Him the Lord Jesus Christ for HE ALONE saves, it was paid for by his blood on the cross, not by Mary or anyone else. Anything that deviates from scripture is a false teaching, and will lead you to Satan; do not be decieved, research and study the living word please people.
In Jesus Christ's name I pray,
Andrea
Andrea,
There are a lot of errors in your statements. I'll just point out a few of them, but I recommend you read this article on Mary in the Bible and this article on the Bible and Mary's virginity.
Catholics do not believe that Mary is either divine or able to save us. Only Christ can save us. We do not look at Mary as equal to Jesus in any way. The term "coredemptrix" does not mean Mary is equal to Jesus. I just don't understand where you come up with this! Read the Catholic Catechism before you start throwing out lies about Catholics!!
Revelation 17:18, which you misinterpret badly, says clearly that the woman is a city, not a literal woman. See Rev 12:1 for a description of Mary. It's frustrating when you come on the site and write lies, Mary. I don't understand why you think you're following the Bible by lying - please explain.
Also, it's impossible for a protestant to understand the book of Revelation, since it is based upon the Mass. Those who simply read the Bible to learn about the end times are making a terrible error - God wants us to focus on Him, not on the end of the world. I'll pray for you Andrea.
By the way, why did Jesus "build" a church in Matthew 16:18?
God bless,
Jay
just look into Catholic Dogma and see where I got this information; I do not lie. coredemptrix is what the Catholic Church wants to make Mary, that is co- redeemer of sins and this is wrong. The apparitions that have occured are sanctioned by the Catholic Church, therefore the Catholic Church believes what these apparitions say. Fatima in Portugal says, "only my immaculate heart can save you", this contradicts scripture and the very essence of the gospel. Read Isaiah 47 1-9 and see what The Lady of Kingdoms is and then read what Pope John-Paul II wants to call Mary the "Lady of all Nations". I do not study the end of the world, but rather look for the sign of the return of Jesus Christ. I do not seek to affend, but rather urge people to study for themselves that is all. I am not Protestant I was raised Catholic. I have studied the Marian apparitions of Fatima and around the world, I have studied the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church, I have studied Messianic prophecy, and currently keep watch over world events including what occurs in Israel. Please I mean you no disrespect just look for yourself, study. Thank you for praying for me.
In Jesus Christ's name I pray,
Andrea
Just my own thought on the issue of Satan carrying the malformed baby. It seemed to me that at that time, he was trying to tempt Mary away from the role she agreed to play in this sacrifice. By showing the "baby", he was appealing to her as a parent, trying to get her to somehow intervene, versus accepting what she agreed to with God.
Just my own personal interpretation, with nothing but my brain to back it up.
Hey, just another thought on all this..It seems as though some people here are presuming to know exactly everything that is going on in the end times...and while we can speculate on that, only GOD himself knows...Everyone is going to have a different interpretation, and quite frankly, I don't really see why people are so worked up over it. Everyone can be right or Wrong- that's why we are human and God is GOD! I also think that the whole "Catholic versus Protestant" thing is a little ridiculous..As long as we live by God's word, that is all that matters, and regardless of the label that a Christian puts on themselves, if we are truly of Jesus Christ, then we are all brothers and sisters in his eyes. God Bless You ALL!!
Posted by: Rebecca at March 29, 2004 08:40 PMWho was the one disciple that was by Mary's side the entire way? Was that Jesus's brother? If so, where in the bible is that stated?
Thanks!
Posted by: Judy at March 29, 2004 09:53 PMJudy,
That was John. He was the only apostle recorded to have been there at the crucifixion. All of the others fled. It was to John that Jesus entrusted His mother as He died, and to His mother that He entrusted us all.
In Christ,
Dave
What was the significance of Mary holding two handfuls of gravel at the Crucifixion?
Posted by: Stephanie at March 30, 2004 06:12 PMHello Andrea,
I trust that you at least looked up some of the references given and read the pertinent texts of the Sacred Scriptures. You suggested that calling Mary Co-redemptrix, somehow makes Mary an equal to God. It's a rather hasty conclusion; you should have asked for a clarification. If (grounded on false data) you have already made up your mind on the topic, I am tempted to concur with Father Abraham about speaking to the living to warn them about Hell. "And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them." [St. Luke 16:29]
You have the scriptures, yet you seem to not hear the Gospel.
Co-Redemptrix. 'Co'is derived from Latin, and it means 'with.' Redemptrix is from Redeemer. In fact all the Baptized are called to co-labour, to be colaborators with Our Lord Jesus Christ in His redeeming work. We share not only in the treasure of our inheritance, but also in its works. It's not the work of mere human origin that is operative here, but the power of God working through every soul, which is a mere instrument of the Master Himself.
Don't believe me, hear out the apostles:
"My little children, of whom I am in labour again, until Christ be formed in you." [Galations 4:19]
"Whom we preach, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. Wherein also I labour, striving according to his working." [Colosians 1:28-29]
"Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but labour with the gospel, according to the power of God." [2 Timothy 1:6-14]
"That I may know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings: being made conformable to his death" [2 Corinthians 1:5]
"Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" [Colosians 1:24]
Our Lord Jesus Christ shared His prerogatives and powers with His apostles and his other disciples, to perform miracles and works, so the Gospel may be advanced everywhere. Would it imply that because they were given a share of the mission of the Redeemer of men, they suddenly became demi-gods or gods?
When a Christian presents the good news to a heathen soul, does the former to all this because it's a nice thing to do or because out of genuine concern for that soul's eternal destiny, that it might be saved?
Does not the Christian then labour for the Gospel (as a co-labourer of Christ) without making himself a God?
Such it is with Mary, the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who shared with her Son's mission in the most unique manner by clothing Him in the flesh. [It is interesting to note that Moses would write about the seed of the Woman who would conquer and crush the serpent (Cf. Genesis 3:15). 'Seed' is always used to denote the action of fatherhood, yet at the precise moment of our first parents fell from grace, God spoke of the seed of the woman!]
So why then are you scandalized that Mary conceived God the Son, and raised Him, and was even present at His Passion, death and Resurrection?
Why then are you scandalized that her participation was that of motherhood, which was towards advancing the Kingdom of God amongst men? Even He, whom you claim as your Lord and God subjected Himself to her! [Cf. St. Luke 2:51] Ought not a follower of Christ, follow Christ???
Are you ashamed of His Mother?
Please for the sake of your soul, rethink your opinions, and be open to the whole Gospel!
"Fortes fortuna juvat"
Posted by: Roman Soldier at March 31, 2004 04:31 PMHI-
No questions, only disappoint...while this site is meant to ask questions regarding the symbolism behind a movie intended to bring His Church together, it is laden with petty arguments about who's doctrine is correct. These are the issues that divide the church and make Christian weak when we come in the name of Catholic versus Protestant. We are ALL here to glorify Him in all we do and help make disciples, not argue about scripture. Lord knows, we won't get all the answers until we are there before Him!!
Please continue as the site intended: to ask questions, not argue.
Posted by: Redeemed at March 31, 2004 07:30 PMPerhaps the scene with Satan carrying the mal-formed baby was an (evil) analog to the image of Madonna and Child. If I recall, this scene was during the scourging, and Jesus’ mother was there too – even if at a distance. Vividly (at least for this Catholic viewer) keeping up the good vs. evil motif running throughout the flick.
Posted by: Jack at April 1, 2004 08:03 AMWhen analizing this movie,one must remember it IS from the point of view of a Catholic & thus the symolism (like it/accept it or not) is from a Catholic's point of view. Read the visionary nun Catherine Emmerich writings on the life of Jesus & Mary. Mel based some of his material for the movie on her writings as well as another nun's visions.
I think he took the "creative license" thing a bit too far. Crows will not go after something that is live, such as when it plucked out the man's eye.
I completely agree with Redeemed. As for the comments that Callisto made, he might have taken the creative license thing a bit too far, but the thing is, it is a MOVIE, not the actual scriptures. Not to burn your poptart or anything,but maybe GOD was guiding Gibson's hand on this one. Who's to say that those things couldnt have happened? We werent there to see...and to be honest, the petty details are unimportant compared to the basic point of the gospels and the movie: JESUS CHRIST went through a LOT for us....and we should appreciate it.
Posted by: Rebecca at April 2, 2004 05:00 PMCallisto,
I think Gibson was going for symbolic value in this particular scene. The man was spiritually blind (he couldn't see who Christ really was), so the crow brought about physical blindness as a metaphor.
God bless,
Jay
I agree with you Jay...that's a very nice point of view:). God Bless:D
Posted by: Rebecca at April 2, 2004 05:51 PMNo poptarts burned here. Scripture, Smitzure. I just think Mel took a bit too many liberties on the whole & then everyone jumping on the God guiding Mel's hand thing. Still waiting with baited breath why Satan's hair went flying into the netherlands of Hell. But then, was it that creative director interpretation at work yet again?
Posted by: Calllisto at April 3, 2004 01:35 PMDave, here is a new topic.... What is the Catholic stand on divorce now? I find it really interesting that in Matthew 19, it says that the only reason for divorce is marital unfaithfulness. And though it does allow for a divorce under that condition, it does not say anything about remarrying. I believe that if a woman was widowed without having had children, it was the responsibility of another brother to marry his widow, thus giving her the posibility of children, and insuring that she would be taken care of in her old age. So, as I see it, you could have a divorce if someone had been unfaithful, but you could only remarry if you had been widowed. Which brings me to the question of all the people who are currently divorced and remarried, and not because of adultry or because they've been widowed...should they have just divorced and not remarried. Is there anywhere in the Bible where it states that you can remarry for any other reason? Would appreciate your insight. Madeline
Posted by: Madeline at April 4, 2004 10:50 PMMy fiancee and I saw the movie for the second time yesterday. We brought my brother to see it for the first time. Two years ago, he had a serious accident to his right eye. He has lost sight in this eye. He pointed out how it was the right eye that was damaged on several people in the movie. It was the right eye that the crow plucked from the man hanging next to Jesus. It was the right eye of Barabbas that seemed to have a cataract. Jesus' right eye seemed to be the more hurt of his eyes. Any signifance? thanks
Posted by: Kathy at April 5, 2004 06:49 AMMadeline,
This is a very good question. My understanding of the Church's teaching is that remarriage (after a valid and sacramental first marriage) is only permissible in the event of death. My Monsignor is our diocesan canon law expert, and I think I remember him saying that even in the case of spousal abuse separation might be appropriate, but not divorce and remarriage. However, I could be wrong on this count. I will raise the issue with him.
I would like to add one little comment about the state of marriage in the Church right now. I am reminded of a G.K. Chesterton statement about joining the Church (one that a friend recently reminded me of). It goes like this: "Come on in. It's terrible!" Such is the tortuous path of life in the Church. What is so amazing is that when you read the giants of Christian teaching (particularly St. Paul, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Athanasius), you recognize that such has always been the case. The greatest miracle is that God loves us at all!
In Christ,
Dave
P.S. I will try to post my conversion story in the next few days.
Posted by: Dave at April 5, 2004 11:32 AMLike I said before, it is a movie, and not to be taken as seriously as actual scripture. As for the whole "bandwagon" statement, it's not a matter of anyone jumping on it or not, it's simply a matter of opinion that GOD could have helped influence this film- then again, he might not have. I don't presume to know the mind and workings of GOD- I only know that he will do anything to help us see the way. I have seen many people taking an interest in scripture, and while I think Mr. Gibson's movie helped with that, in the end, all the credit goes to the ALMIGHTY. Creative license is allowed in a movie, because most people realize the difference between fact and fiction- most movies are fiction, scripture is real.:) God bless!
Posted by: Rebecca at April 5, 2004 11:50 AMThis is a very powerful movie-of course there is some artistic license taken because it is a "movie" but the overall effectiveness of this portrayal of the crucifixtion of the Christ tells the story of God's love for his creation and His desire to reconcile us trhough the sacrifice of His Son-we need to thank Mr. Gibson for his compelling need to create a visual of God's love to convict the hearts's of His children-thank you!
Posted by: Mema/Ruru at April 6, 2004 10:47 AMMadeline,
The word is in from Monsignor. Remarriage after a valid, sacramental first marriage is absolutely prohibited except in the case of widows/widowers. Divorce is prohibited except in the case of infidelity, but no remarriage is allowed even in that case. So, your views on marriage (and the Bible's) are precisely what is taught by the Church. Of course practice is a different story...
In Christ,
Dave
was it required that the families of the people being beaten clean the blood, or was that something mary decided to do on her own?
Posted by: ashley at April 9, 2004 05:23 PMAshley, I think Mary elected to do that on her own, but I could be wrong. From sources I have read online, the women were showing the symbolic act of how precious our LORD's blood is..hope that helps:D
Posted by: Rebecca at April 9, 2004 09:11 PMI was raised in a Southern Baptist church and currently attend a church with no "religion label."
All are welcome, and Jesus Christ is the Saviour there, and the only way to salvation is through acceptance of this,....having said this I would like to say that I think Mel did a beautiful job.
I believe there was licensing taken, however, it was never condradicting to scripture...I do want to point out a few of my opinions on that licensing:
JUDAS:I think Judas went insane with guilt and grief, and if I recall the one tormenting boy looked a lot like the "baby" satan was holding. These could've been related, or maybe Mel just wanted us to think about it and wonder and go back to check it out...I did and still wonder which is not a bad thing....to wonder
MARY & the blood: I believe it is Jewish law, though not sure which or if it is only one, but blood is either sacred or unclean and in kitchens in the streets, wherever, blood is not to be intermingled with anything else.
CLAUDIA:She was the wife of Pontias Pilate it is historically assumed that he was madly in love with her and worshipped her, she had a dream that something terrrible was going to happen,she had heard of Christ and was curious and even perhaps a believer in His miracles... this dream is implied in the movie and she states this to Pilate...It is in the scripture somewhere(not a scholar) like Jay, Andrea, Madeline and Dave but also not an angry person...(hint hint)It is tacky to correct spelling on postings, and grammar is given a lot of latitude on the internet...this coming from an elementary teacher.
Please play nice or you will not get a sticker!!
I applaud your willingness to question things...it means you have to go looking for the answer..."SEEK AND YE SHALL FIND"
Please pray for each other, pray to God, in Jesus' name. He will hear you, He makes this promise many times....
I am grateful for this movie. I think it is beautiful and depicts the suffering of the fully-man/fully God Saviour and His human pain and His Godly love.
In Christ,
Amy
I noticed the face(although lightly outlined) of Jesus on the towel that Veronica used. Is that on the actual one that is in the church that has it now?
Posted by: Darvin at April 12, 2004 11:27 AMDarvin,
Yes - the actual cloth from St. Veronica includes the facial print of Christ. You can probably find a picture of it on the internet somewhere . . . if I find one I'll post it.
God bless,
Jay
Why was there a chalice hanging from the thief's cross, the one who said if you are the Christ then save yourself and us?
Thank You.
Posted by: Carol at April 13, 2004 09:40 PMI do not dispute the Blessed Virgen Mary of the bible; I dispute that the Catholic church supports the apparitions of Fatima in Portugal. I urge you to read on this. The Vatican totally accepts Fatima as the apparition of the The Blessed Virgin Mary. I claim that this apparition is not Mary, but rather a demonic apparition decieving people and the Vatican into believing her doctrine. I believe completely in Jesus Christ, he is the only means of salvation, and anything that contradicts Jesus and his teachings is wrong and should be watched carefully by the faithful. The words of Fatima are, "only my immaculate heart can save you". This is a lie, only the blood of Jesus Christ can save us all. I love and trust in Jesus Christ and it hurts to see people be decieved. Mary of the bible was a faithful servant of the Lord and is an example to us all; she was obediant to Gods will and for that she will always be known as Blessed. I do not dispute this, however these apparitions are dangerous yet the Catholic church supports them as truth.
In Christs name,
Andrea
When a woman came to Jesus and attempted to
exalt Mary, look how the Lord responded.
"...a certain woman of the company lifted up
her voice, and said unto Him, blessed is the
womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou
hast sucked. But He said, Yea rather,
blessed are they that hear the word of God,
and keep it" Luke 11:27-28
(THIS WAS IN THE MOVIE)
"And Mary said my soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my savior".
Luke 1: 46-47
If Mary was indeed sinless why would she need a savior?
"for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
Romans 3:23
all are imperfect except Jesus Christ the lamb of God.
Posted by: Andrea at April 15, 2004 07:31 PMAndrea,
Thank you for your comments. I would like you to know that I understand where you are coming from. I would also like to explain Fatima to you from a Catholic perspective. First, Catholics do not have to accept Fatima. The Church neither endorses nor opposes the apparition, but rather simply states that nothing in the apparition is contrary to the faith. Second, although you have slightly misquoted the Fatima apparition, the Church does teach that on a certain level, salvation does indeed come through Mary.
Though I do not expect you to agree, I do hope that you will try to understand what this means. Catholics do not worship, adore, or deify Mary. However, Jesus took the entirety of His humanity from her. Without a human mother, Jesus could not have sacrificed Himself for our sins. Only a human being could do that. Mary was that human mother, so very necessary to the salvation of the world. By her "yes", salvation entered the world through her womb. Our salvation, therefore, comes from her. If this is repugnant to you, consider that even the Bible states that salvation is from the Jews (Jesus was a Jew). How much more accurate to say that salvation is from Mary, whose very womb held salvation and whose very loins bore salvation.
All of this is not to say that Mary paid the price for our sins. She did not and could not. In fact, Mary was in need of a Savior just as much as all of us. Her immaculate conception was a gift made possible only by the future death of her Son. Thus, although we believe that she did not sin, it was only through a grace that was poured out on her made possible by Christ's sacrifice. But none of that detracts from the reality that we are only able to receive salvation through Christ because the mother of Christ cooperated with the Divine Will. So, in that sense, we are saved through Mary.
Again, I know that you will not accept this, but I hope you can see that we are not saying that Mary is the Messiah, a god, or to be worshipped. We are simply acknowledging her very unique role in salvation's design.
In Christ,
Dave
I thought that Catholics DO believe in Mary, and one reason why is because of the Holy Rosery that Catholics pray on for Mary. Also, the part when Jesus said to John and Mary "Mother behold your son" and "Son behold your mother". Many people have different point of views on it, and some think that Mary isn't a virgin and that Jesus had brothers or something, but from what I believe...Mary IS a virgin, and when Jesus had said that quote of what I had said, he means it as that Mary is a mother to all of us(like a mother), and that John should look up to Mary like we all should as if she was our own mother. And also another thing, I've learned somewhere(can't remember where) that one easy way to get to Jesus is through his mother-Mary. Mary isn't as divine or great as God or Jesus of course, but I believe she should still be worshipped to and that we should all pray to her because she is like a mother to all of us. Throughout my whole life, I've heard stories of miracles and appearings that are done by Jesus, but mostly a lot of them are also done by the Blessing Mother Mary also. A lot of people close to me experienced the appearence of Mary to them, even my dad-and she had done so many miracles to people. One story I heard from somewhere, was that Jesus appeared to this woman, and told her that we should all respect Mary like she is a mother to us,...she IS the mother of the son of God-and I just feel like we should worship and respect her also, instead of saying "catholics shouldn't have to pay their respects to Mary because she is not great enough as Jesus or God"..etc. It offends some people-like me. Well...this is all of what I believe in and just wanted to say. Everyone do have different point of views though, so I'm not saying I'm right or anything.
Posted by: KJ at April 16, 2004 11:17 PMAndrea,
You keep mentioning or rather attacking the apparitions of Fatima with one quote and you tell people to research on their own as you have. I am curious, what books did you read to do research on Marian apparitions especially that of Fatima? Have you read Fatima in Lucia's Own Words? Have you ever visited Fatima, Portugal?
Like Dave stated above, you do not have to accept the Fatima apparitions to be Catholic. However, whenever the Church says something (an apparition, the life of a saint, a relic, etc.) is not contrary to the faith, they have done extensive research! More than you and I could ever imagine. So learning about the Church approved Marian apparitions and believing in their messages can only deepen your faith in Christ and bring you closer to Him.
When I have more time, I will write about the apparitions of Fatima in detail. But I want to be sure that you as well as others reading this site know that Mary never said, "Only my Immaculate Heart can save you." Rather she said, "My Immaculate Heart will be your (referring to the visionary) refuge and the way that will lead you to God." In a later apparition after the three children Jacinta, Francesco, and Lucia had been shown a vision of Hell, Mary said, "You have seen hell where the souls of the poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart."
There is so much more to the visions of Fatima, but essentially Mary's message was that God is greatly offended by all the sins in the world and wants us to pray for peace and offer sacrifices for the conversion of sinners. How is this message Satanic, Andrea?
I have been to Fatima twice in my life and both times I have felt a supernatural peace like no other place in the world. The town is an extremely peaceful town which heeds the messages of Our Lady and continues to pray much for peace in our world. Many people have been cured both physically and spiritually from being witnesses to the actual apparitions and from visiting the site of the apparitions today.
Plus so far all the things Our Lady foretold the children of Fatima that would occur to our world if people didn't change their sinful ways and come back to Christ, have occurred. Examples - World War II and the Communistic Rule of Russia and the Fall of Communism after Russia was consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary by Pope John Paul II in 1984.
Again, I am curious to know where you have done your research on the topic of Marian Apparitions especially Fatima. And I hope in the near future to post a separate article on Fatima. Remember "By their fruits you shall know them." Please show me documentation of evil fruits that have come about due to the Apparitions of Fatima. Many people have converted to the Catholic Faith due to the apparitions, many have changed their lives to be centered around Christ and prayer, and many have experienced physical, mental, and spiritual miracles in their lives due to the apparitions. I fail to see how this is of Satan, usually his fruits are just the opposite - drugs, sinful sexual behaviors, addictions, greed, hatred, violence, to name a few.
Your sister in Christ,
Maria
My questions regard Mary Magdalene. They are as follows for easy reading:
Why was Mary Magdalene's reputation portrayed as a harlot by the church when it does not say it anywhere in the bible?
What about the gospel of Mary Magdalene?
Who is "another disciple"?
Why was Mary Magdalene put into a boat without a sail with other significant women only to land on the southern shores of France where she lived to be 72 and known to perform miracles there?
Did Mel Gibson end the film abruptly because he did not know how to portray the "another disiple at the tomb?
If the "another disciple" was John at the foot of the cross, where does it tell you this in the bible?
According to what I have been reading and watching on the discovery channel...Mary Magdalene meet all of the qualifications to be a disciple and more. Why was she made to be a harlot and not recognized, even today when woman are permitted a place in society?
Just wanting some answers. Any help will be appreciated.
Denise
Posted by: Denise at April 17, 2004 02:29 PMA quick note on KJ's comment for all of those who are reading: the Church absolutely prohibits the worship of Mary or any other created thing. While some of KJ's comments are accurate (i.e. we are all Mary's children), she is not God, a god, a deity, to be worshipped, or anything approaching that nature. She is rather the finest example of a created being, and one who held and holds the most honored and unique role of any person in history. Clearly, there are some individuals who are confused, but this no more originates from Catholic teaching then the David Koresh originated from Protestant teaching. Just wanted everyone to be clear on that.
For anyone seeking proof of this point, consider the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."
971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.
In Christ,
Dave
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/sunburst.htm
Posted by: Andrea at April 18, 2004 12:04 AMwww.CatholicConcerns.Com
Posted by: Andrea at April 18, 2004 12:18 AMSalvation comes only through Jesus Christ the lamb of God.
"No one goes to the Father but through me"
Jesus Christ
"salvation does indeed come through Mary"
Dave
"I believe she should still be worshipped"
KJ
I was a member of the Blue Army of Fatima I read all the propaganda Father Gruner sent me, I was a supporting member for years until I realized what I was doing was actual worship of an idol. Jesus Christ should only be our focus nothing else. I mislead no one.
In Jesus Christs name,
Andrea
According to Catholic teaching, you are not supposed to "worship" Mary as if she was a God. Instead you are supposed to give her the respect she is due. She was exceptionaly holy, and fulfilled a very special and difficult role that God gave to her. I don't know why you think you were worshipping idols, but never the less, you should give Mary her proper due according to both scripture, and church teaching that gets its power from Jesus in scripture.
1st, you have the Catholic Church, who directly teaches us, as Dave pointed out, that we should not worship Mary, but we should honor her and give her the honor she is due. I don't know where you got your information on what the Catholic Church teaches, but the source Dave sites it the offical teachings of the Church so don't be mistaken. This teaching is backed with the authority Jesus gave it, and is guided by the Holy Spirit in Truth. Remember, God knows all, and if he didn't want Mary to get the attention she is due according to Catholic teaching he never would have given the church the authority to say so. However, all knowingly, he did give the church that authority. I think it is safe to say that God wanted the church to teach that Mary is due special attention.
Secondly, and probaly more convincing to a protestant, are the direct scriptural referances to the special role Mary played in God's plan, and the reasons we should call he Blessed and look up to her. Check out this site, http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-VII. There are alot of scriptural versus there, some refer to Mary indirectly, and some directly, but they all point toward the role of Mary in God's plan.
Posted by: Tom Ace at April 18, 2004 05:19 AMOn the film:
I thought it to be a brilliant piece. Unlike some, I couldn't take my eyes off the screen. It brings a sense of reality to the events, shows us what it really was like. The gore is not over the top, it is essential to the feel of the film, and really brings the message home.
I thought Rosalinda Celentano's performance was brilliant and essential in particular. Emphasising Satan's role in it all.
Question:
This is a question page, so here goes:
Near the end we see Satan screaming/roaring. Is that Golgotha, Calvary, Hell? Why did Satan seem so eager for Christ to die, making Judas betray him to that cause, and watching the events with a seemingly confident air, only to end up screaming when his plans came to pass? Perhaps Satan did not know it would lead to salvation, but then at the beginning of the film he comments on that.
Most confused.
On images:
There is a great collectio of stills from the film here, including the much thought upon image of the baby in satan's arms.
Having only caught a passing glimse of it in the film, it is strange to see it captured on your computer screen…
Disturbing as ever.
Question:
Does anyone know of images depicting Satan, or Mary walking through the crowd, following Jesus?
Of the destruction of the temple,
Of the hell-like scene near the end?
Thankyou all,
'Ri.
Posted by: Ri at April 18, 2004 07:53 AMRi, this is mostly speculation, so take what I say with a small grain of salt..I think that the place that Satan screamed from was supposed to be a spiritual version of what hell represents..but I can't be certain. I've heard it said that the barren wasteland represents the stripping of Satan's power from him (through Christ's sacrifice), but I dont know for sure.
I also think that the reason that he seemed to enjoy the whole crucifixion experience was that he reveled in seeing Jesus suffer- he tries to tempt Jesus into foregoing the agonies he would have to suffer..and his presence throughout the movie is to try to show Jesus that he would be better off ceasing the crucifixion, ergo, condemning humanity. He didnt truly think Christ would follow through with his sacrifice, but that's the nature of Satan showing through-always thinking that he can be number one, in opinion and so-called fact.
I can't recall the websites for the photos you requested, but here is a website for questions and answers..I hope this helps you out a little:) GOD Bless!!!!
http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/thepassion/questions/index.html
On the subject of Mary.....she was a holy woman only insofar as she obeyed the will of God. She was chosen to be the mother of Christ, and she obeyed. She has a very miminal role in the Gospels, and virtually no role at all during Christ's 3-year ministry. She was not performing miracles, there is no record of her teaching with Jesus, or any significant involvement in the development of the early church. She is not mentioned as having any role in the Acts of the Apostles. (The book of Acts) There are no Scriptual teachings that instruct us to pary to Mary or any other Saint for intercession. In fact, the Bible teaches us this -
1 Tim 2:5 - For God is one, and there is ONE Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,
Now, if Mary is also a mediator, as well as a few dozen saints, then 1 Tim 2:5 is false. 1 Timothy 2:5 makes it clear that in the same sense that there is ONE GOD, there is ONE mediator. Paul couldn't have been any more clear. There is only ONE mediator between mankind and God. Either the Bible is correct, or Catholic doctrine is correct. They cannot both be correct because they contradict eachother. The Bible says there is ONE mediator and the Roman Church says there are many. This is a contradiction.
Regarding intercessary prayer, there are some passages that instruct us to pray for one another, but those instructions were written to LIVING people regarding praying for other LIVING people. Paul wrote his Epistles to instruct living members of actual churches on earth. He was not writing his letters to dead people in heaven.
Jesus gave us the model of prayer. He taught us to pray to THE FATHER directly. No where did Jesus teach us to pray to his mother, or dead saints. Think about it purely from a logical standpoint......If we have the ability to address God Almighty (The Father) DIRECTLY, why in the world would need pray to anyone else? If you have a direct line of communication with the President of the US, would you haggle around on the phone with one of his secretaries? Not likely.
We should pray to God the Father, just as Jesus taught us.
Blessings,
Brandon
Brandon,
You miss much in Scripture if you believe that Mary's role in salvation history is minimal. There are many who have "obeyed the will of God." Granted this is the foundation, but Mary is the only person I know of throughout the history of humanity to actually bear the Son of God. I will point you to where we have pointed many others before you - Luke 1 and 2.
Mary herself said:
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. - Lk 1:48
What prompted Mary to say this? It was Elizabeth's proclamation.
Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb! Any why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? - Lk 1:42-43
Just another "holy woman" with a "minimal role"? Hardly. Elizabeth, wife of Zechariah a priest of the Temple, and the mother of John the Baptist, is asking Mary why it has been granted to her that Mary should come visit her. Elizabeth is paying honor to Mary, and Elizabeth was Mary's elder. She was able to recognize the importance of the Mother of God and she declared her "blessed". Would that all of our non-Catholic brothers and sisters could do the same. It's biblical.
Also, you are mistaken about Mary not being mentioned in Acts (Acts 1:14, cf. 2:1), she is actually praying with the Apostles. Just wanted to point that out.
Second, in terms of intercessory prayer, I believe you limit the scope of the Christian community. Are saints in heaven not alive in most complete sense? Will they not one day be reunited with their bodies? As Christians we believe so. Is it wrong to ask another member of the Body of Christ to pray for us? Absolutely not. St Paul said:
For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire, and darkness, and gloom, and a tempest, and a sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned." Indeed so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I tremble with fear." But you have come to Mount Zion and the the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel...Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire. - Hebrews 12:18-29
Here St. Paul clearly defines the host in whose company we exist. Asking them to pray to the One Mediator, Jesus Christ for us does not in any way detract from Jesus' perfect and exclusive mediation. Keep in mind, all the saints and angels pray to Him.
Do I need to point out the contradiction in your last paragraph? First you say - There is only ONE mediator between man and God. Then you say we are to pray to the Father directly. Aren't you going around Jesus? Just making a point. We are to pray to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit and we are in perfect accord with the will of the Most Blessed Trinity when we seek the prayers of fellow members of the Body of Christ, living here or in heaven.
In Christ,
Joe
I logged onto this site looking for answers to the symbolism depicted in a fictional but altogether accurate representation of a historic event - the crusifiction and subsequent reserection of Christ. After reading some of the comments here, it is not difficult to understand how and why we have made such a mess of this world. The petty arguments of doctrine versus dogma makes me sad.
I am not a scholar, though I read alot. I am not without sin, though I try each day to be better than the day before. My faith is not unshakable, but my faith is strong, and has sustained me through some difficult times. I am grateful for the challenges and opportunities God grants me, grateful for the doubts that test my faith so I may understand better the depth of his love.
I am also grateful Mel Gibson decided to make this film. It has people thinking, and bickering, but perhaps through his (MG's) efforts, more people will ask questions and find answers in God.
God Bless,
JR
It might be helpful to remember that before there was written Scripture, Christianity existed and passed along faithfully what Christ had taught his apostles and disciples. This is what the Catholic Church calls Tradition. It is the only key to understanding the Bible with accuracy.
It is a fact that even in the catacombs in Rome, there were (are) visual representations that honored the Mother of Christ, the Blessed Mother. The apostles and early Christians all reverenced her because she was the Christ-Bearer, the Theotokis. They did not think she was God, but the Mother of God. (If you try to separate Christ's divinity and His humanity, you are in serious error.)
If you depend on modern man's interpretation of Scripture alone, without the help of the early Christian Church from the time of Peter, (the first Pope, the Catholic Church), then you will have as many and varied interpretations as there are Protestant denominations, which now number in the thousands.
I thank God that He saw to it that we are left with the source of truth from the time of Christ and Peter, the Catholic Church. He did not leave us orphans!
Mary Ann
Hi Joe,
You said: Just another "holy woman" with a "minimal role"? Hardly. Elizabeth, wife of Zechariah a priest of the Temple, and the mother of John the Baptist, is asking Mary why it has been granted to her that Mary should come visit her. Elizabeth is paying honor to Mary, and Elizabeth was Mary's elder. She was able to recognize the importance of the Mother of God and she declared her "blessed". Would that all of our non-Catholic brothers and sisters could do the same. It's biblical.
- Your argument only articulates that Mary is "blessed". But guess what? I never said that Mary wasn't blessed! So your entire argument has shadow-boxed a claim I never made! There is a HUGE difference between simply acknowledging that Mary is "blessed" and teaching that we should pray to her, worship her, or believe that she is the co-mediator/redeemer of mankind! Hello? There is not a single instance in the Bible where anyone ever worshipped or prayed to Mary, so its YOUR doctrines that are "unbiblical" my friend.
You said: Also, you are mistaken about Mary not being mentioned in Acts (Acts 1:14, cf. 2:1), she is actually praying with the Apostles. Just wanted to point that out.
- Thanks for the correction. Hmmmm.....so the Apostles are healing the sick, raising the dead, and casting out demons under the annointing of the Holy Spirit, while Mary is mentioned to have prayed. Wow. Realize that I am not minimizing the role of prayer, but pointing out that Mary had no significant role in the Apostolic age. Thousands of other Christians also prayed alongside the Apostles.
You Said: Second, in terms of intercessory prayer, I believe you limit the scope of the Christian community. Are saints in heaven not alive in most complete sense? Will they not one day be reunited with their bodies? As Christians we believe so. Is it wrong to ask another member of the Body of Christ to pray for us? Absolutely not.
- Your argument completely neglects the teachings of other Scriptures. Ecclessiastes teaches us that the dead are "conscious of nothing" -
Ecc 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten."
- The whole book of Ecclesiastes is written in regards to life on earth - "under the sun". So in that context, Solomon is saying that the dead have no knowledge of anything under the sun. If the dead no longer have any knowledge of earthly affairs, that means they can't pray for you or hear your prayers, because YOU are "under the sun".
You said: Do I need to point out the contradiction in your last paragraph? First you say - There is only ONE mediator between man and God. Then you say we are to pray to the Father directly. Aren't you going around Jesus? Just making a point.
- Jesus is our mediator, who makes us ABLE to go directly to the Father. That is why we pray in the NAME of Jesus. Just so there is no confusion - Jesus is the only mediator through whom we have direct access to the Father.
You said: We are to pray to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit
- Thats not what Jesus taught. He taught us to pray to the FATHER. Ever read the Lord's prayer? Please explain to me why I should ignore Jesus' model of prayer in preference to your's? Did Jesus get it wrong? Was his model of prayer so poorly communicated that he needed you (and the Roman Catholic Church) to re-invent it for him?
You said: and we are in perfect accord with the will of the Most Blessed Trinity when we seek the prayers of fellow members of the Body of Christ, living here or in heaven.
- Living members can intercede for us, but the ones in heaven no longer have any knowledge of life "under the sun". Again, your beliefs about dead saints contradicts what God's Word says in Ecc 9:5.
Blessings,
Brandon
Brandon,
First, to use the Old Testament to make the claim that the dead are "conscious of nothing" even after the resurrection is poor use of Scripture. We know for a fact that when Jesus died on the cross the dead were seen walking around Jerusalem (Matt 27:52-53). We also know that Moses and Elijah came and spoke to Jesus on the mountain (Matt 17:1-8). The state of the dead before Jesus' death and resurrection was totally different from that of the faithful afterwards....I think we all agree on that.
In the book of Hebrews, St. Paul wrote:
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.
- Hebrews 12:22-24
The author is clearly saying that when we enter into prayer we are surrounded by the entire Church, living and dead. If your interpretation of a verse contradicts some other verse, especially a verse in the New Testament, than your interpretation is inaccurate. As in this case of your interpretation about the state of the dead.
The Early Church Fathers understood this as well, but then again, they also believed in the power of intercessory prayer and the importance of Mary and her role in salvation history...
Also, do you nor church pray in the name of Jesus? Do you never worship Jesus? If we aren't to pray to Jesus what was St. Thomas thinking when he said "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). By the way...the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one...hence the Most Holy Trinity. As Christians, we worship and pray to all the Persons of the Trinity.
In Christ,
Joe
joe,
jesus is'nt technically dead.
tom ace,
you say "If [God] didn't want mary to get the attention she deserves according to catholic teaching he never would have given the church the authority to say so."
well if God didn't want you to rob a bank he never would have given you the means to do so.
(dont rob a bank, that's not what i'm saying)
also if the pope holds the burden of sin, doesn't that make The passion null and void.(wich it is'nt)
why talk to mary and the saints when God would like a conversation with his children right now?
Posted by: scott at June 28, 2004 05:43 PMjoe,
jesus is'nt technically dead.
tom ace,
you say "If [God] didn't want mary to get the attention she deserves according to catholic teaching he never would have given the church the authority to say so."
well if God didn't want you to rob a bank he never would have given you the means to do so.
(dont rob a bank, that's not what i'm saying)
also if the pope holds the burden of sin, doesn't that make The passion null and void.(wich it is'nt)
why talk to mary and the saints when God would like a conversation with his children right now?
If it be his will let this post help cast the idols from his childrens views and strengthen them in his ways.
his will be done,
scott
Scott,
Not sure what you are talking about in your first statement. All Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead, so naturally He isn't technically dead. If you are implying that Jesus never experienced a true death you are incorrect. We know that Jesus died on the cross and then rose from the dead. It wasn't a fake death.
In Christ,
Joe
For me, the perennial question(s) about Gibson's Passion - Not Jesus' Passion, but Gibson's - is straight forward, and which I wish I was given an opportunity to sit with Mel and ask him.
The question(s)?
Why did you choose this particular scene/text/narrative from this particular Gospel for this particular part of the movie?
In other words, to go scene-by-scene with Mel and script in hand, after having matched every scene and every bit of dialogue with its Gospel parallels and ask Gibson what his reasoning was for picking one Gospel's portrait of a scene/dialogue over another Gospel's portrait of the same scene or dialogue.
It is only after you consider Gibson's choices in this matter that you can begin to see the many problems with his Passion portrait.
For anyone interested, you may want to visit the following URL:
http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/
The Center for Christian-Jewish Learning at Boston College where there is a great deal of information about Gibson's Passion as well as information on the Catholic Church's work in-and-about the dialogue between Jews and Christians.
Posted by: Jack at July 2, 2004 03:21 PMJoe,
You said: First, to use the Old Testament to make the claim that the dead are "conscious of nothing" even after the resurrection is poor use of Scripture. We know for a fact that when Jesus died on the cross the dead were seen walking around Jerusalem (Matt 27:52-53). We also know that Moses and Elijah came and spoke to Jesus on the mountain (Matt 17:1-8).
- The dead walking around Jerusalem were resurrected temporarily, that is why they were "conscious". And the appearance of Elijah was an apparition specially designed by God for the benefit of the Apostles. No one is arguing that under special circumstances, God cannot cause a dead saint to communicate with a living one (like Elijah communicating with Moses). What I can argue, however, is that the normal modus operandi is that the dead stay dead, and no longer have any contact with the living or consciousness of "life under the sun", as Ecclesiastes clearly states.
You said: The state of the dead before Jesus' death and resurrection was totally different from that of the faithful afterwards....I think we all agree on that.
- Perhaps.....if you mean the state of the "faithful dead" is a state where they exist directly to the presence of the Lord. But that does not address the issue whether or not they have knowledge of the affairs of earth, or can "hear prayers". In fact, no where in Scripture does it teach that the dead saints can hear prayers, or answer them.
You said: In the book of Hebrews, St. Paul wrote - "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel."
- Hebrews 12:22-24. The author is clearly saying that when we enter into prayer we are surrounded by the entire Church, living and dead.
- This portion of scripture is an exposition to the Hebrews based on the Mt. Sinai experience. There is nothing in the context of this passage that refers to prayer. Nowhere is "prayer" mentioned. What this passage is describing is the unity of the saints, from all times and places, when we finally enter "the New Jersualem"...which will not happen until we are resurrected, judged, and glorified. "Flesh and Blood" cannot enter the kingdom of God (the new Jerusalem), so it is obvious that those entering the New Jersualem are saints who have been judged, resurrected, and glorified. None of that happens until the Judgement Day.
Blessings,
Brandon
Brandon,
A couple of points. First, Revelation clearly shows that those in heaven know what's going on here (on earth) and worry about it. Look at Revelation 6:9-11. Also see Luke 15:7-10 where those in heaven rejoice at the conversion of a single person.
Also, during the Transfiguration Jesus is surrounded by two of the "dead" that apparently speak with Him and are aware of events unfolding. Finally, in 2 Maccabees 15:11-16 we have the long-dead Jeremiah answering a prayer.
In other words, Scripture is full of references to those in heaven being aware of events on earth and actively praying for us (as in Revelation) or answering prayers (as in Maccabees). Note that these are just the most direct examples of this - there are others.
God bless,
Jay
What was the symbolism behind Jesus' eye being different colors throughout the movie. At one point it was red, then green, yellow, and even purple?
Posted by: Tracy at September 1, 2004 09:07 AMWhat was the symbolism behind Jesus' eye being different colors throughout the movie? At one point it was red, then green, yellow, and even purple.
Posted by: Tracy at September 1, 2004 09:08 AMIn reading most of the comments here, I find that one truth seems to be overlooked. No matter how we may interperate the scriptures, there is only one true interpretation. That of the Holy Ghost. II Timothy 3:15 tells us "all scripture is given by the inspiration of God..". Therfore the only way to truley understand the scriptures is to fitst pray for guidance and then study them with an open heart and mind. Lets not forget that the important thing is not at all who is right or wrong in their interpretation, but salvation through the Blood of Jesus Christ. This movie, though contrversal in many ways, can and will be a very powerful evangelical tool for years to come. I don't think many people realize what Jesus actualy went through to be our savior. Nor do they realize that no one took His life, but he freely gave it. He could have called legions of angels to come to His aid, but He didn't. He died of His own free will to save us. Lets not forget the importance of winning the lost to Christ. After all, that is the great commision, right?
Posted by: Allen at September 6, 2004 12:20 AMI watched the movie at home Not DVD. What is the difference.
Someone asked where was Joseph Jesus' Dad in the movie. Joseph was Not Jesus father.GOD was/is Jesus Father.I am not Catholic, but,I do believe the Holy Mother, Mary has the right to a Pesical place in all our hearts and our Prayers.Also to another ????? re Mary's other offspring.Jmes the brother of Jesus ia clearly spoken of in the Bible and was at Mary's his Mother's side through the long hours of horror.Don't have to be Catholic to read the symbols of the Good & Evil throughout the movie.Mel Gibson did a fantastic job in making this movie and showing the world just how great a sacrifice Christ made for us all.Believe what is in your heart,and don't be swayed by other opinions, some of whom are so ready to rear down anything that is good.Don't let Satan win.God Bless you. Margaret ( I shall send my Angels to watch over you ) ?????Fatima ????
I watched the movie at home Not DVD. What is the difference.
Someone asked where was Joseph Jesus' Dad in the movie. Joseph was Not Jesus father.GOD was/is Jesus Father.I am not Catholic, but,I do believe the Holy Mother, Mary has the right to a Pesical place in all our hearts and our Prayers.Also to another ????? re Mary's other offspring.Jmes the brother of Jesus ia clearly spoken of in the Bible and was at Mary's his Mother's side through the long hours of horror.Don't have to be Catholic to read the symbols of the Good & Evil throughout the movie.Mel Gibson did a fantastic job in making this movie and showing the world just how great a sacrifice Christ made for us all.Believe what is in your heart,and don't be swayed by other opinions, some of whom are so ready to rear down anything that is good.Don't let Satan win.God Bless you. Margaret ( I shall send my Angels to watch over you ) ?????Fatima ????
sorry for errors in type. I am puzzled and somewhat sorry to read so many Catholic versus Protestant arguements/disagreements here.The ?????? are on the movie,and on how each of us read the meanings in it.Not religious teachings, or individual beliefs.The Bible has all the answers.I don't Mel Gibson intended to have the Holy Mother,or Mary Magdalene,oe especially God's Word belittled. There are too many troubles in life today,let's keep the Good in our lives.God Bless you all.Just remember how much was sacrifced for us. P.S. What are /is The Marian apparitions. Thought at first reading it was martians???? which have no connections whatsoever to Fatima.or Majagoria (spelling )there??)
Margaret
I just wanted to say that I have just watched the Passion on DVD, and I feel that this movie will have everyone talking for a long time. To the people that are quoting the bible word for word....thats wonderful dont get me wrong. But I do believe that Mel Gibson did not make this movie to fight about who knows more about the bible than someone else. In my heart, its about how all of us should feel everyday, LOVED BY OUR LORD!!!! What this "one man" sacurifed for all of us. And in the end we will all be judged. I do not see people picking at past movies about Christ, that are played on TV each year (on Easter.) And each one is different in its own, but tells you the same story, Christ died for us. Yes THIS movie is lot more powerful than the movies in the past but that is what I believe Gibson captured in this movie. The two Mary's cleaning the blood, note his mother Mary starts to clean first the other Mary comes in to help her. A mother cleaning her son's blood, why would you question that, yes "its not writen the bible" but its one of the many parts of a movie that rips your heart out. Just like when she remembered him falling down as a boy and cutting back and forth running to him to pick him up. Where was that in the bible? No where because pictures speak louder than words. None of us today was there to see this happen, yes the bible tell us and going to church. BUt its tell us so much. Maybe Jesus snord, he had to go to bathroom, he is a human being right? Does it tell us that in the bible of course not. Do you see my point. Gibson fills in the different parts to give the movie depth and emotion. One more example and then I will go, someone asked about when Mary grabs handfulls of dirt and rocks. Would you do the same if you heard your son yell in pain and you could not do anything because you knew its whats he was born to do.
God bless
I just finished watching The Passion Of The Christ, just now, moments ago. I had come here first looking for insight that may help me in watching the movie. I instead saw people arguing over interpretations, religions, Mary, Catholicism, dogma....I want you to all stop, take a breath, stop the heated discussions that only fuel anger and frustration (admit it, you have felt frustrated with the people you are going back and forth with, right?) Whom do you think brings about these feelings? It's not the God you are so righteously trying to defend. I believe your intentions are from the heart...but please, recognize what path these emotions of negativity towards others and their beliefs can lead you down if you are not very careful. Satan uses all these little distractions of details and earthly concerns to divide us, and successfully. There is only one thought that is in my mind and heart this moment, after experiencing what I just did....just to love one another. My gosh...how He loved us...how He suffered...I am so incredibly humbled...if I can only live and open my heart to give that kind of Love...that's it...no rules or doctrines or talk of religious differences or groups or people here feeding us false doctrines. Yes, it's here, we all know it, we all see it, but don't you see that by focusing on it, it is taking your eyes off Jesus, and onto each other, each person trying to prove their own point? Be still, and know that I am God. Still your fingers, take a breath, and just love each other, and pray for each other, and all of us, silently. God will not let any of us falter. Remember...those good works He began in us? All of us...He will bring them to completion. Bless all of you...your hearts are all on the right path. Guard against judgement and frustration and focusing on "religions" and who can quote and correctly interpret the most bible verses to prove what they are trying to say....shhhh....Just Love.
Peace,
~Pamela
Pamela,
True love is offering someone a greater good than they currently have. Because Protestants do not have the Eucharist (the body and blood of Christ), we love them by pointing out that they can have a greater relationship with Christ in the Catholic Church.
Love does not mean you let others continue in ignorance or keep your mouth shut just so they will like you - that's a little closer to hate (or at least apathy). We actually want to make it easier for protestants to get to heaven.
This is why we do this: love.
God bless,
Jay
I think Mel Gibson's movie was awesome, and as my minister says, "That was only a fraction of what Jesus really went through, you really can't depict what he actually went through." I am so thankful that Mel did this, because you always go to the movies and it's curse this, curse that, profanity here, profanity there. And it is such a relief to be able to see a movie rated R (and only because of the gore) without profanity in it and it also be about Jesus. I think that is so awesome and if anyone knows a fan site for this movie (so I can tell Mel how great he did) I would appreciate it if they would let me know. You can e-mail me @ jesusfreak_rara07@hotmail.com Thank you.
Posted by: Mindy A. at September 14, 2004 05:44 PMI saw one minor error in the movie scripturally (other than the fact that Gibson could not show respect to Jesus by portaying him nude was he would have been on the cross). When Judas hanged himself, the rope broke and his entrails were spilled on the ground. The reason was that not even the rope nor the tree would support the weight of a betrayer. Judas' burial is where the tradition of potter's fields came about in public cemeteries.
However, I was thrilled to see that Mel Gibson got it right in the tomb scene. So many try to say that the burial shroud was folded. If that were true, then it would not prove Jesus' resurrection. The shroud was wrapped in layers like a cocoon (as Gibson showed it) and then would have collapsed (as Gibson showed it) when Jesus was raised from the dead. It would have been possible for anyone to have stolen Jesus' body with the collapsed cocoon-like wrappings still in place.
Though I find no fault with Gibson using his Catholic background to film the movie, I find it to be important that any Christian seek out the answers in the scriptures to the finer points of Christian belief and service rather than relying totally on any Christian sect's dogma.
Keith D.
Posted by: Keith D. at September 21, 2004 02:31 AMActually I've watched the passion twice and I feel that Mel did a very fine job depicting the physical aspects that jesus went through, trully as the bible says he was unrecognizable from how he looked when he rose from the tomb. Now granted it was impossible for Mel to give us a true accurate depiction of what Christ went through from the spiritual side. One can only imagine knowing from the time of your birth that you conceived but for one purpose, to die for our sins. I imagine that from the last supper til the day he was crucified, Christ was a mental wreck, knowing that at anytime he wanted he could have saved himself from the immense pain and toture that was being brought upon his body and mind, but instead made himself the ultimate sacrifice.
lol, also i've been reading over this forum and seeing the debate between christians and catholics, blah thought this was supposed to be about questions related to the movie, who cares if catholics like to pray to mary, or pray to saints, and pray to god, hey if that what floats there boat, so long as they know and understand that there prayers to the saints aint getting them to heaven it not really matter. Besides who are we to judge and say your interpretation of the bible is right and mine is wrong. I've read alot of that in this thread, "your interpretation is wrong and I hope you find the truth BS". No one but God trully knows the true symbolism that the bible shows throughout its pages.
And finally here is my take on Satan's little baby during the scourging scene. To me it was just one more way for Satan to torture Christ. If you will remember during that time we were seeing alot of the connection between Mary and Jesus, flashbacks of when Christ and her were having the discussion bout the tall table and tall chairs and what not, and when he was being beaten, when he rose to heis feet the first time from the initial beating, he was staring straight into Mary's eyes, Satan played on Christ emotions, by showing himslef comforting his child where Jesus could not be comforted by his own mother. Just another way of satan inflicting mental anguish along with the physical that Christ was already going through.
I can to some degree further this idea by jumping ahead into the movie during the Carrying of the cross, during this scene, Mary could see Satan weaving in and out of the crowd, and when it came to the area where she ran to comfort him when he fell to the ground carrying his cross. We get the flash back of her running to a young christ and comforting him when he fell. When he was a child she was able to hold him and comfort him, but as a man and he is doing what he was made for, she finds she cannot trully hold and comfort her son when he needs a mother the most.
But these are all just my opinions, doesnt make them true just how i think mel was thinking when he made the movie.
Posted by: Jeremy at October 15, 2004 09:56 AMwhy did mother mary and mary magdalene wipe up the blood the way they did?
Posted by: stephanie at October 22, 2004 02:04 PMwhy did mother mary and mary magdalene wipe up the blood the way they did?
Posted by: stephanie at October 22, 2004 02:04 PMi just watched the movie four hours ago on dvd and i believed that God led mel to make the movie. 2000 yrs ago our Creator came in the flesh in the person of the Son and the blood was shed the gap that our sins have created is closed. The movie passion of the Christ is a part of God's continual plea for mankind to repent and be reconciled unto him. it is sad that this website was open to try to understand the symbolism in the movie not to bring up questions about doctrine and beliefs. the only doctrine that we as saints should only uphold is the doctrine of Jesus Christ which is the Word of God which was given to us in written form the Holy Bible. the movie had its affect on alot of people. some people were convicted i saw it myself as i was playing the movie at work. i think that the ugly baby represent sin and satan's seed (the children of disobediance). i think the flying of satan's hair off his head represents to the fact that satan was humiliated by Jesus himself at his death and his resurrection. We as God's people need to stop arguing amongst ourselves. we are living in the last days and the spirit of antichrist is alive today as it was in john's day so we need to wake up. stop acting like idiots among ourselves because when the people of God our arguing with each other we really look retarded and are giving Jesus a bad name. it is time to put all doctrine, beliefs, dogma, and creeds on the table to see if all those things are in alignment with the bible and if they are not then get rid of those things.
Jesus is coming soon.
love,
your brother in christ
norman
P.s. pray for me and i'll pray for you let us love one another as Jesus gave us commandment.
Yahweh is coming back agian in the person of Jesus Christ. let us be sober
1. Why is it that Joseph did not appear in this movie?
2. I did not hear the word(This is the true Son of God) after his death on the cross.
3. Did not see the parted curtains in the church as said in the Bible.
4. Why was satan shouting in the end?
5. I was expecting Christ to bid His followers goodbye,although most of us know the story.
Thank you
Jeremy,
Where in the gospel passion narratvies does it relate that Jesus was (beaten so badly that he was) unrecognizeable?
Or, is this a Christian interpretation of a Jewish scripture?
Jack
Posted by: Jack at December 19, 2004 07:43 PMWhere are the other apostles at the time of Jesus crucifixion?
Posted by: Princess at February 18, 2005 06:45 AMas jesus carried the cross there is a cross cut between the devil and mary walkng LONG WITH HIM throught the crowd. at one point their eyes meet . what is going on here? do catholics believe the devil is mary's nemesis??
Posted by: amy at April 2, 2005 10:45 PMAmy, you got it pretty much right on. Catholics believe that Genesis 3:15 "I will put enmity between you (the serpent) and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel." is a prophesy that there will one day come "the woman" who will have a child that crushes the head of the serpent.
The serpent is the devil, the child is Jesus, Jesus is the offspring of "the woman" Mary. Jesus addresses Mary as "the woman" when he performs his first miracle at the wedding of Cana.
When Eve was formed out of the rib of Adam, they were both sinless and virgin. Adam bears the primary responsibility for disobeying (sinning aginst) God and yet Eve played a crucial role in our Fall.
When Jesus was born of Mary, they were both and virgin. Jesus bears the primary responsiblity for obeying God and yet played a crucial role in our Salvation.
Does Eve's deception lessen Adam's culpability before God? Not at all. Does Mary's faithfulness lessen Jesus' righteousness before God?
But I'm rambling on here. You are correct, the devil and "the woman" Mary are enemies. Cardina