March 05, 2004
Praying to the Saints: Are they really listening?
As a recent convert, one of the questions that has really bothered me about praying to the saints is the question of how they can hear us. If we pray out loud, do they hear us audibly? If we pray silently, do they know our thoughts? Perhaps most problematic, with so many people praying to Mary, Joseph, and Peter, how can they hear all of the prayers at once? In short, the idea of praying to saints seemed to assume that they were omnipresent and omniscient--God-like! After some consideration and research, the answer was provided to me.
The first thing to think about is the relationship between we the living, God, and the saints. I began with the basic Christian position that the Church is the Body of Christ, and that Christ is the Head of the Church. This is clear from Scripture and there is no need to explain. Next, I recognize that I, as a Christian, am part of that mystical Body of Christ. (As a Catholic, I am also a part of the visible Body). Thus, I am united to Christ. That leaves the saints. What is their relationship to me and to Christ? To start, saints are those who have died in the grace of God. Thus, they were a part of His Body on earth. Once they have died, does this relationship end? Certainly by the end of all time, the saints are part of the Body, as demonstrated by the wedding between Christ and the Church. (Rev. 21:9-27.) And it is unreasonable to suggest that the saints cease to be a part of the Body between their death and the end of time. In fact, Rev. 6:9-11 and 7:9-10 shows that they continue on in consciousness and activity before the Lord even before the end of time. Thus, the relationship can be summed up as follows: Christ is the Head of the Body (Church); the faithful departed make up part of the Body; the faithful on earth make up part of the Body; and together, all the saints in heaven and on earth make up the whole Body of Christ.
The second question is whether these different parts of the Body have access to one another. The Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-3) is a prime example of contact between the saints on earth and in heaven. However, many point out that this was Christ who contacted the saints, and was thus a unique circumstance. So what other examples are there in Scripture? Consider the innumerable examples of angels having contact with people on earth (I assume our readers will be familiar with many such examples). Why is this important? Christ Himself likens the saints in heaven to angels. (Matt. 22:30, Mark 12:25, Luke 20:36.) In fact, in heaven the saints are placed above the angels! (I Cor. 6:3.) So, if the saints in heaven are like angels and will in fact judge the angels, it is not unreasonable to believe that like the angels they could have contact with us. Finally, notice that in Rev. 6:9-11, the saints are acutely aware of what is happening on earth, and cry out for the day of judgment to come. Thus, while Scripture may not by itself prove beyond any doubt that the saints have contact with the living, the likening of the saints to angels, the visit by two saints to Christ, and the calling for judgment day by the saints certainly demonstrates that Scripture is not opposed to the concept.
But this still doesn't answer the question of how the faithful departed can hear the prayers of the faithful living without having God-like infinite powers. Once again, the answer became apparent by looking to angels. They are neither gods, nor do they have God-like powers. Nonetheless, Scripture clearly shows that they know the minds and hearts of men. In Luke 15:7 and 10 we see that those in heaven, and specifically the angels, engage in rejoicing over the repentance of a single sinner. Now as a former Protestant, this one was easy to recognize: repentance is not an act of the body or mouth, but one of the heart. So how on earth could the angels and those in heaven rejoice over a change of heart? Could they know the minds of men? The answer is an emphatic yes--and no. Clearly Scripture tells us they do know the hearts of penitents, since they rejoice over repentance. But that does not mean they have supernatural power. Remember that God is their author and master. Could it be that God transmits to them the knowledge of men's hearts? Or put another way, couldn't God empower His angels to know the hearts of men? And if His angels, why not His saints? If all of heaven is rejoicing, wouldn't that include the saints? Certainly it is much more problematic to suggest that the angels are up there rejoicing, and the saints are walking around going "I wonder what all the fuss is about?"
There is another way of thinking about this, and I thank this morning's EWTN radio guest for pointing it out. If I hold a needle in my left hand and push it into my right hand, is my left hand communicating with my right hand? Not exactly. First, my brain must communicate the command to my left hand, and once my right hand has been poked, it is my brain that communicates the sensation of pain to that hand. That is how prayers to the saints work. We, one part of the Body, speak to the saints, another part of the Body. But this communication must all be run through the Head, who is Christ. Our prayers to saints are communicated by Christ to the saints, who in turn respond to the request by sending it back to Christ. So, all prayer to saints is really empowered by and controlled by God. Christ as the Head facilitates the communication between the Body on either side of death's divide. When this is understood, we can again return to the Transfiguration and see just how logical this is. Christ Himself communicated personally with those beyond death, and did so in the presence of three of His disciples. Just as happened during the Transfiguration, when we communicate with saints, we do so only through Christ who holds the power to cross that great divide. In a sense, we step into the shoes of Peter, James, and John as beneficiaries of that power--we too can see Elijah and Moses just as they did because we too are united to Christ.
One last burning issue is the question of why we should pray to the saints. This is particularly problematic when we consider that if Christ must facilitate this prayer, why not pray directly to Christ? First, ask that same question with respect to your family. Asking them to pray for you is just as wasteful, right? Why waste your breath on puny humans when you can approach Christ directly? Yet prayer for fellow believers is encouraged throughout Scripture! The "why" of it all is in some sense a mystery. But think about the reference in Scripture to the prayers of a righteous man. (James 5:16; I Peter 3:12.) Both of these passages indicate that the most powerful prayer comes from righteous persons. And who can disagree that none are more righteous than those saints who sit before God day and night in eternal worship? Scripture is unmistakable on this point: the prayers of saints are exceedingly powerful.
It should be enough to accept on faith what is clearly stated in Scripture. But for those still troubled by the apparently illogical process of going through Christ to reach the saints who return the prayers to Christ, I would propose that the answer can be found in love. Prayer for our fellows is an act of love. Requests for prayer are an acceptance of love. The more we do either, the greater the love between the members of the Body; and love is the glue that binds us together. When we pass that love through the hands of Christ, it is multiplied many times over. Consider the two miracles of the fishes and the loaves. When they go directly from person to person, the supply is limited. But once placed into the hands of Christ, he distributes them in an infinite fashion, and at the end of the day there is more given back to Him than what existed in the first place! So it is with our prayers. There is an ebb and flow, a back and forth. The more we exchange it, the more of it there is; call it the "economy of love." It defies our logic because it is a miracle. It is the supernatural and infinite character of God at work in our finite existence. But it is beautiful! Why only include Christ? He did not say that loving God was the only command, simply the greatest. The second one is like it: to love your neighbor as yourself. God is not the only thing in our lives or in Christianity. He has seen fit to bless us with billions of brothers and sisters, men, women, children, and even angels. This is the magnificence of the family of God. Do not reject the gift He has given you simply because you are afraid it may take your eyes off of Him. Instead, recognize that all of His family exists "with Him, in Him, and through Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit" one family forever and ever! By participating in the fullness of God's family, living and departed, we truly participate in the fullness of God.
In Christ,
Dave
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Dave,
You have probably writen one of the best explanations of this subject that I have ever read. Hold on to the last part about love with everything you write, and you won't make any enemies. People will despise you for what you write, but cannot for how you wrote it. Praise God! "Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."Mt. 5:10 Stay encouraged brother!
I just want to add one thing to the evidence that communication and praying with the saints who have gone to be with the Lord is real. Through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ our Lord, He has conquered death. If we are the body of Christ, and indeed one with Christ as He is one with The Father, then this death has no authority to separate us from our brothers and sisters when we die in the flesh. Hallelujah!
in True Peace, Joshua
Posted by: Joshua at March 5, 2004 04:36 PMDear Dave, I'm sorry that you think I've already made up my mind, and won't accept any other theory that is different from my "preconcieved notions." I had no intentions of putting down your Catholic beliefs. I was basically trying to get your point of view on the subject of praying to the dead. I stated my point of view so that you would have a point of reference, and would be able to answer my question more directly. The difference between Protestant and Catholic beliefs have come up in discussions, and I thought it would be good to see where in the Bible you found the basis for your belief. Your site had a lot of good insight and I thought you would be able to give me dependable information. Thank-you for the Srciptures you gave me, I will read them, and see what I think. Madeline
Posted by: Madeline at March 24, 2004 04:57 PMMadeline,
I'm very glad to hear that you will read and seriously consider those Scriptures. At times it feels like I could cite the entirety of Scripture and just keep hearing the response, "Well that's not in the Bible." I hope my frustration in that regard has not given you the impression that your questions were not important enough for me to seriously consider. My writing is done in the hope of more fully explaining the Catholic position to interested people like yourself. If, after reviewing this material, you have further questions, I am ever at your service.
In Christ,
Dave
Dave, you made some good points that I had not thought about before, and some that I'm not sure I can accept entirely. Your point about how our relationship with God does not end when we die was excellent. Thus, if we can communicate with God while we are living, why then should we not be able to communicate with Him after our death. You point this out very well in Luke 15:7. Also in Revelations 6:9-11, where the saints cry out for Judgement Day, is another excellent passage which show the awareness that the saints have of the present time. As far as Mark 12:25, and Matthew 22:30, I take this to mean that in heaven, just like the angels, humans will not marry or be given into marriage;nothing more. As far as saints judging angels(corinthians 6:3), I'm not sure that I can make the assumption that because of this they(the saints)have contact with us.And in James 5:16, even though it does say that the prayer of a rightous man is powerful, it doesn't give me any indication that it is talking about the prayers of a dead rightous man. I understand your connection as stated before that our relationship with the Lord doesn't end with our physical death, and thus the prayer of a rightous man either dead or alive is powerful.But I just feel that in that passage it is being addressed to the living. In any case, you have given me some food for thought. I will continue to think about these things, and if I come up with any other thoughts, I will be sure to share them with you. Madeline
Posted by: Madeline at April 4, 2004 10:28 PMDave,
A few thoughts......I don't doubt that dead saints still commune with God in heaven. That is not the question. The question is whether dead saints in heaven commune with living humans on earth. In other words, do they have knowledge of what is going on down here on earth? The answer to that question is a resounding NO. This is made clear in Ecclessiastes, a book written about man's earthly life -
Ecc 9:5 - "For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten."
Here Solomon tells us that the dead are no longer conscious of earthly life. This scripture single-handedly refutes all of your assertions about the dead being conscious of earthly affairs. Your theology directly contradicts Scripture.
Another important scripture is.....
1 Tim 2:5 - For God is one, and there is ONE Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,
Now, if Mary is also a mediator, as well as a few dozen saints, then 1 Tim 2:5 is false. 1 Timothy 2:5 makes it clear that in the same sense that there is ONE GOD, there is ONE mediator. Paul couldn't have been any more clear. There is only ONE mediator between mankind and God. Either the Bible is correct, or Catholic doctrine is correct. They cannot both be correct because they contradict eachother. The Bible says there is ONE mediator and the Roman Church says there are many. This is a contradiction.
Regarding intercessary prayer, there are some passages that instruct us to pray for one another, but those instructions were written to LIVING people regarding praying for other LIVING people. Paul wrote his Epistles to instruct living members of actual churches on earth. He was not writing his letters to dead people in heaven.
Jesus gave us the model of prayer. He taught us to pray to THE FATHER directly. No where did Jesus teach us to pray to his mother, or dead saints. Think about it purely from a logical standpoint......If we have the ability to address God Almighty (The Father) DIRECTLY, why in the world would we need pray to anyone else? If you had a direct line of communication with the President of the US, would you haggle around on the phone with one of his secretaries? Not likely.
We should pray to God the Father, just as Jesus taught us.
Blessings,
Brandon
Regarding Angels......in the verse you quoted, Jesus only likened us to angels in the context of marriage in heaven. You need to read the context of the passage. He said we would be like angels in terms of there being no marriage in heaven. Angels do not marry, and neither will we when we are in heaven. To go beyond what Jesus said and interpret his words to mean that we will be just like angels (in every other way) would be going far beyond the context, and to invent a theology that Jesus never taught.
Regarding Rev. 6:9......there is no "acute awareness" going on here. The dead saints only ask how long until their blood will be avenged. It does not say anything about the dead saints communicating with people on earth, or having any kind of "acute knowledge" of earthly affairs. As I pointed out before, Ecc 9:5 already makes it clear that the dead are conscious of nothing on earth. Their days "under the sun" are OVER. They cry for their blood to be avenged, much like how Abel's blood cried to God from the ground:
Gen 4:9,10 - And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is your brother Abel? And he said, I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper? And He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries to Me from the ground."
Now, if you were consistent with your own logic, you would have to interpret this verse to mean that we should pray to people's BLOOD. After all, Abel's blood was praying to GOD, so why couldn't Abel's blood pray to God on our behalf too!!! So now in addition to praying to dead saints, you ciuld add praying to people's BLOOD.
Surely you can now see the logical problems with your theology. It is in error, and abuses Scripture. Please just go by what the Scriptures actually do teach, and stop trying to mangle isolated verses to fit your own doctrinal inventions.
Blessings,
Brandon
Brandon,
How convenient for you to explain away every supportive verse that exists. Aside from the fact that your explanations reach considerably beyond their own grasp, they also obviate the teachings of the Church that existed for 1500 years before Luther. Talk about arrogance.
You have failed to explain how the saints can rejoice over the repentance of a single sinner if they do not know about it. Care to explain that away?
Your reference to Ecclesiastes is so ridiculous it makes it seem that you have never even read the Bible. It also says the following:
"As for men, God tests them so that they may see they are like the animals . . . The same fate awaits them both . . . man has no advantage over the animals. . . . all go to the same place." 3:18-20
"All share a common destiny--the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad . . . As it is with the sinner, so with the sinner . . . the dead know nothing; they have no further reward. . . . never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun." 9:1-6.
So, given your twisted and unguided view of the Scripture, the good, the bad, and the ugly (I mean the animals) will all die and go to the exact same place, never to rise again; there is no Heaven. Congradulations, Brandon, you are now a modern day Jew!
Tell me Brandon, were you there when the Bible was written? Were you there when it was compiled for the very first time into a book called the "Bible"? Were you there through the ages as old Catholic monks translated and transcribed the Scriptures, by hand with only the light of a candle, going blind as they did so? Did you impart to the bishops at Nicea the infallible Truth that God is in fact a Trinity? Did you suffer for the next 200 years alongside the bishops of Rome as they were arrested, exiled, and/or murdered by the majority of Christianity that was sucked into Arianism and Monothelitism? Do you know anything about this Bible that you so casually bandy around like some kind of pocket knife?
Brandon, I did not make this stuff up. I do not rely on my own fallible interpretations of Scripture, as I once did (and as you now do). Rather, I submit my own flawed will to Christ's will as stated by the Church that He established. I rest in 2000 years of saints, a Church that spans time and space, and in Jesus Christ Himself. You wander aimlessly around the maze of your own conscience. I've got news for you Mr. Edison, YOU are the inventor!
In Christ,
Dave
Excellent article, Dave. I once had a Protestant ask me how the saints hear us and I had no clue how to answer him. Now I do!
Danny
Posted by: Danny at June 11, 2004 12:09 PMExcellent article, Dave. I once had a Protestant ask me how the saints hear us and I had no clue how to answer him. Now I do!
Danny
Posted by: Danny at June 11, 2004 12:11 PMEcclesiastes 9:5-6, For the living know that they will die, but the DEAD KNOW NOTHING! they have NO further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. 6. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished. NEVER AGAIN WILL THEY HAVE A PART IN ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS UNDER THE SUN!!!
V. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, FOR IN THE GRAVE, WHERE YOU ARE GOING, THERE IS NEITHER WORKING NOR PLANNING NOR KNOWLEDGE NOR WISDOM.
I believe the spirit is conscience and present with the Lord, but not aware of the goings on here on earth. Then it would no longer be paridise for those there. They would be crying and sad, instead of Happy, and Joyfull.
Joyfully Serving Jesus
Patricia
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, For the living know that they will die, but the DEAD KNOW NOTHING! they have NO further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. 6. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished. NEVER AGAIN WILL THEY HAVE A PART IN ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS UNDER THE SUN!!!
V. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, FOR IN THE GRAVE, WHERE YOU ARE GOING, THERE IS NEITHER WORKING NOR PLANNING NOR KNOWLEDGE NOR WISDOM.
I believe the spirit is conscience and present with the Lord, but not aware of the goings on here on earth. Then it would no longer be paridise for those there. They would be crying and sad, instead of Happy, and Joyfull.
Joyfully Serving Jesus
Patricia
Think...you are a person. Saints, angels, Mater Dei, are persons. Above all Father, Son, Holy Spirit are Persons too. Speak to the HOLY SPIRIT PERSON TO PERSON.
Posted by: lorkin at February 8, 2005 12:10 AMSt.Theresa of Liseaux & St.Anthony of Padua will answer your prayer immediately.
Posted by: lorkin at February 8, 2005 12:21 AMlet the Holy Spirit pray through you to the Immaculate Heart of Mary who is always listening and answering your requests with the Sacred Heart of Jesus and our Heavenly Father, our Divine Creator.
Posted by: lorkin at February 8, 2005 12:26 AMDavid,
The monks that translated stuff under candle light a thousand and some years ago, had various interpretations of scripture. Many of those interpretations were banned, burned, hidden, etc. And many of the monks were killed for believing "against the grain" of the Catholic Church. The Catholic church doesn't recieved it's wisdom from infallible wisdom imparted by the Holy spirit, but rather the murder of innocents in the beginning whom had a difference in opinion.
Wow Luke, that post is so well researched and footnoted you have absolutely convinced me.
"Many" interpretations banned? How many?
"Many" monks burned? Care to name, say, three?
And even if you are correct - would my pointing out the historical excesses of protestant churches prove to your satisfaction that the Catholic Church has the truth?
Try arguing the doctrine rather than your particular flavour of history.
Peace
Posted by: fidens at December 6, 2005 05:02 AMHi Dave
Thanks for a very informative post. Right up there with your best!
Just reading through the subsequent comments, I was again struck by the limited, and limiting nature of Protestantism. Although you have tried to explain how praying to/through the saints is biblically supported, I believe most Catholics just haven't given that side of it too much thought. We know the system works. Just like our cars (automobiles), we get in them and drive them, even if we don't know exactly what makes them run. Provided we follow certain routines, like switching on the ignition, etc, the rest follows. Praying to/through the saints is like that.
But, in addition, there is the question of results. You see, if peoples' prayers were never answered, the practice would have died out centuries ago. Instead, praying to/through the saints is as strong as ever.
I think Protestants are debating an issue that, again, without the Catholic Church's living tradition and the ongoing experiences of Catholics, their reliance on Sola Scriptura (particularly the OT in this case) simply doesn't have an answer. I feel for their frustration and I pray that the earlier "anti-posters" will reconsider their views.
In Christ
Brian R
Praying to the Saints
One may point to: 1 Timothy 2:5 as a proof text against anyone praying to Saints in heaven in order for them to pray for us on earth. After all, it does say: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”.
Doesn’t it say as clear as day here, that no one can get in-between man and God, and by praying to saints, are Catholics violating what it so clearly teaches here? Well, in the first place commons sense tells us that if the Catholic position violates it, so does the Protestant practice of praying for others. After all, Protestants as much as Catholics always intervene by praying not only for themselves, but other people, all the time. When one asks them to pray for them, Do they say to one another “How dare you pray for one another, there is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ!!!”
The burning issue is the question of why we should pray to the saints. This is particularly problematic when we consider that if Christ must facilitate this prayer, why not pray directly to Christ? First, ask that same question with respect to your family. Asking them to pray for you is just as wasteful, right? Why waste your breath on puny humans when you can approach Christ directly? Yet prayer for fellow believers is encouraged throughout Scripture! The "why" of it all is in some sense a mystery. But think about the reference in Scripture to the prayers of a righteous man. (James 5:16; I Peter 3:12.) Both of these passages indicate that the most powerful prayer comes from righteous persons. And who can disagree that none are more righteous than those saints who sit before God day and night in eternal worship? Scripture is unmistakable on this point: the prayers of saints are exceedingly powerful.
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.
Hermas
"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
Clement of Alexandria
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
Anonymous
"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).
"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).
"Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).
Methodius
"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).
"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).
"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).
Hilary of Poitiers
"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).
Ephraim the Syrian
"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).
"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).
The Liturgy of St. Basil
"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).
Pectorius
"Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).
Gregory of Nazianz
"May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand" (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).
"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).
Gregory of Nyssa
"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).
John Chrysostom
"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).
"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).
Ambrose of Milan
"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).
Jerome
"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).
Augustine
"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).
"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).
"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).
"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).
One Judge? One Mediator?
Mt. 19:28 Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22:30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
1 Cor. 6:2 Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world? If the world is to be judged by you, are you unqualified for the lowest law courts?3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? Then why not everyday matters?
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, (then) I will enter his house and dine with him, and he with me. 21 I will give the victor the right to sit with me on my throne, as I myself first won the victory and sit with my Father on his throne. 22 " '"Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches."'"
Is there a void separating us from the saints in heaven?
Heb11:32 What more shall I say? I have not time to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, did what was righteous, obtained the promises; they closed the mouths of lions,34 put out raging fires, escaped the devouring sword; out of weakness they were made powerful, became strong in battle, and turned back foreign invaders.35 Women received back their dead through resurrection. Some were tortured and would not accept deliverance, in order to obtain a better resurrection.36 Others endured mockery, scourging, even chains and imprisonment.37 They were stoned, sawed in two, put to death at sword's point; they went about in skins of sheep or goats, needy, afflicted, tormented.38 The world was not worthy of them. They wandered about in deserts and on mountains, in caves and in crevices in the earth.39 Yet all these, though approved because of their faith, did not receive what had been promised.40 God had foreseen something better for us, so that without us they should not be made perfect.
Heb12:1 THEREFORE, SINCE WE ARE SURROUNDED BY SO GREAT A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us 2 while keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus,
Is there more evidence that the Saints are aware of what is going on at earth, and do they ask for justice?
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Revelation 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 18:20 Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Luke 15:7 I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.
Luke 15:10 In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
Do the saints in heaven need to pray?
Rev 8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the PRAYERS OF ALL THE HOLY ONES, on the gold altar that was before the throne.4 The smoke of the incense along with the PRAYERS OF THE HOLY ONES went up before God from the hand of the angel.
Rev 5:8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the PRAYERS OF THE HOLY ONES.
Do we come only to God or do we also come to the assembly of Saints in heaven as well?
Hebrews 12:22 No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,23 and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,24 and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel.
Paul says yes.
He says we come directly not only to God, but to an assembly of Saints in heaven (The just men made perfect) exactly in the context of Jesus being the mediator!. Are we supposed to ignore them? The Bible says no!! Jesus is indeed the one and unique mediator. However, it is indeed him as a mediator, that makes all other mediation possible.
Are Angels Better than Us?
Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).
1 Cor. 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels?
There is only one body, the Church. The church is not one church in heaven as opposed to one church on earth
John 15:4 Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.
1 Cor. 12:11 But one and the same Spirit produces all of these, distributing them individually to each person as he wishes.12 As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ.13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.14 Now the body is not a single part, but many.15 If a foot should say, "Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body," it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.
16 Or if an ear should say, "Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body," it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?18 But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended.19 If they were all one part, where would the body be?20 But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body.21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I do not need you," nor again the head to the feet, "I do not need you."22 Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary,23 and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety,24 whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it,25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another.26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it.
Nice.
In Love
when we were one
Posted by: when we were one at July 19, 2006 09:29 PM
