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My father told me of witnessing the Swiss theologian Francis Schaeffer resolve a dispute with a proponent of determinism at the dinner table. Francis picked up a teapot, walked over to his opponent and said something to the effect of, "so, if I have no free will, you won't fault me for pouring this boiling water over you?" . . . I believe the determinist was prompted to recognized the error of his ways.

That was the worst exegesis I've ever seen. Way to use those verses insanely out of context. Of course, the ENTIRE Catholic faith is based off of one out of context verse. Also, the comment from Christopher has no relevance whatsoever.

Anyone who goes into an argument wanting to defend thier free will, has already lost the argument. Pride will surely get in the way...

Free Will, huh? Explain Romans 8 and 9 for me. Explain Ephesians 1:4-5 and 1:11 for me. Explain the opening verses of 1st Peter for me. Explain the book of Job for me. Find the "free will" in Romans 9:16. Explain the book of Acts. Hmm, seems like God was sovereignly in control of everything. Heck, he even predestined what Pilate and Herod woud do to Jesus! (Acts 4:27-28) Oh, wait, that can't be true. We have free will, nevermind. The Bible must be mistaken...

Oh wait, it's not.

Easy does it there, big guy. Remember that Jay had no control over what he wrote; God made him do it! For that matter, I don't either. Of course you don't have any control over your anger either, so I guess I can't blame you. All hail the master Puppeteer... wait a second--He just made me do that too, didn't He? Oh, I guess I'm not smart enough to figure all this Calvinist stuff out.

In the meantime, God is forcing me to provide you with the following verses: I Tim. 2:3-4 and II Pet. 3:9. In case you are not interested in actually reading, they both say that it is God's will that EVERYONE should be saved. And yet, not everyone is saved. Maybe there's something to this free will thing after all, my friend.

If you would like to discuss the venerable Romans Chapter 9 (talk about basing an entire religion on one part of a Book that you hardly even know anything about), I would be happy to engage your misconceptions. But please, let's play nice.

In Christ,
Dave

Mr Hmm..., you asked for an explanation of a lot of versus. I gather that you are having trouble with the idea that we cannot free ourselves from the rule of sin without the Holy Spirit. As Dave pointed out, God wants to save us all, but it is up to us to allow the Holy Spirit in.

"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will." (Romans 12:1-2)

When God created the world, he provided for each of us according to his will, but it is up to us to choose between sin and faith. God knew before the foundation which among us would make that choice, similar to how a parent often times knows what their child will choose, even if that choice breaks the heart of the parent.

This is an argument that is going to go on for quite some time. Is it possible to combined determinism and free will? Most people say no, however I disagree and I believe that the Bible teaches a combination of the two. God knows everything. God directs each of our paths in life. We may not want to hear this, but it is still the truth. I like to look at the argument this way. Lets say that you come to a choice where you can choose A or B. No one is pressuring you to choose either of them and there is where you get your free will. However, the path of A and B will eventually lead you to the same spot no matter which one you pick. God gives us choices to make in life. If we choose the correct choice we will find the path easier to travel, however since we are not perfect we will choose road B at times. Road B will take us through a tough road full of pain b/c we disobeyed God's word. Road B will eventually though lead back to road A. That is how we have both Determinism and Free Will.
I personally would be scared to death if I thought I had free will. To think that my life was in my own hands is not something I would enjoy. I screw up to often, but God knows what is best.
Praise be to God
matt

In answer to Dave

Dave I am glad to see that you brought up the verses in Peter and Timothy, however I believe that you are mistaken in the meaning of those verses. God's will is for all to come to know Him, that part is true, however not everyone is predestined to become a follower of Christ. There is a difference in God's will or what God wants and who God predestined. It is a hard concept I know, how can it be fair that God chooses some to follow him and others he does not choose. That just doesn't seem fair. However, look at the book of Job. Job was a godly man and bad things happened to him, was that fair? was that just? Actually it WAS. God is Just and God is Fair, we have no say in what He should do. He does whatever he wants and what ever he does is just.

matt,
If we do not have free will, then why wouldn't everyone make it to heaven? How could a loving God condemn someone who had no ability to change his situation? What would even be the purpose of life? God could simply create us and send us to the place He had preordained.

If we do not have free will, then God is unjust - this is an impossibility. I agree that God consistently through our lives tries to help us get to heaven. He constantly presents us with the opportunity to choose good, but we still have the ability to choose the other path, 'B'. As Christ said, we must choose the narrow path, we must take up our cross. How could Jesus have said this if we have no ability to do so?

God bless,
Jay

After reading up on the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism, I can see strength in the arguments on both sides. The only way to resolve it is to read the Bible. I'm now leaning towards viewing the Bible as supporting determinism.

Mr. Hmm... points us to Romans 8. Verses 20-21 say "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." This seems to suggest the the process of creation did not fully form us, and that our life of frustration is needed in order to refine us for an eternal life with God. Verses 29-30 drive that point home.

To answer the questions posed by Jay, some people will be condemned and others will not, (see Matt 25:31-46) regardless of whether we have free will. I happen to view Matt

After reading up on the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism, I can see strength in the arguments on both sides. The only way to resolve it is to read the Bible. I'm now leaning towards viewing the Bible as supporting determinism.

Mr. Hmm... points us to Romans 8. Verses 20-21 say "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." This seems to suggest the the process of creation did not fully form us, and that our life of frustration is needed in order to refine us for an eternal life with God. Verses 29-30 drive that point home.

To answer the questions posed by Jay, some people will be condemned and others will not, (see Matt 25:31-46) regardless of whether we have free will. I happen to view Matt

Jay I love the question you open with. If we do not have a free will, then why wouldn't everyone make it to heaven? It seems so unfair to think that God chooses who becomes a child of his. Can a loving God choose to save some and not others? Yes. God's ways are higher then our own. We can't put ourselves on the level of an all knowing God. God's ways are just and right whether we agree with them or not. Then comes the question of what then is the purpose of life? The purpose of life is easy, we are to serve the Lord Jesus Christ. God knew us before we were even conceived in birth (Psalms 139: 13-16. A God who formed us has all the right to place us where ever he wants. He's God, we're only humans, we were created to serve him and carry out his will.

Jay, In anwser to your question that if we have no free will then God is unjust, I give you this answer.
Romans 8:28-30 says "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined he also called; those he called, he also justified, those he justified, he also glorified."

Now take that verse with Romans 9:11-16, it says,"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "the older will serve the younger." Just as it is written" "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."
God choose Jacob before they were even born and not Esau. Just like that example God can choose who is saved and who is not, He's God.
You can read further on in the chapter if you'd like. It will tell how God raised pharaoh up just so that God's power would be seen when God hardened his heart.
Does God choose who is saved and who is not, YES HE DOES AND HE IS STILL A JUST AND A LOVING GOD.

Matt, while you correctly point out that our just God does enjoy the right deny us free will, to damn some people, and to save others, you forget an important point. St. Paul's letter to Timothy clearly states that God desires all to be saved.

Yes, as Creator, he could damn some without free will, but the scriptures state that he does not desire any to perish. If people do perish and God does not desire this, then God must have gifted person's other than himself with free will.

Richard I appreciate your view point, however lets go to that scripture. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says, "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who WANTS all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
The key word in that verse is wants. Of course God wants all people to be with Him in paradise, he created us. However the verse says wants and not wills. There is the difference. God wants all men to be saved, but his will isn't for all to be saved.

Matt, this is exactly my point, if he does not will everyone to be saved yet wants everyone to be saved, then it follows that he has decided to allow the will of others to influence the salvation of others. He has not to let his desire to save all to be the ultimate deciding factor, he has chosen to imbue us with free will and to respect the gift he has given us.

Matt,
If I'm condemned to hell through no fault of my own, then I have been "unjustly condemned." Right? God is not just if He does this. God is also not loving if He does this. At the end of your argument you state:

YES HE DOES AND HE IS STILL A JUST AND LOVING GOD.

Also, there's a difference between God knowing what will happen (foreknowledge) and God removing free will (determinism). God knows exactly the choices we will be presented with and the choices we will make over the course of our lives before we are born. But we are still free to make those choices.

Why are we here, Matt? What is the function of earth? Under determinism, God knows what will happen and dictates it - why should the earth even exist? God could simply create us and stick us in hell or heaven. Even absent determinism, God knows what we are going to do with our lives, why not simply judge us as soon as we are formed and stick us in heaven and hell?

There's only one answer: we don't have foreknowledge, but we do have freedom. In other words, we're here so that we will understand the justice and love of God when we are judged. If we are condemned before our lives, we could tell ourselves, "I wouldn't have done that." But by allowing us the opportunity to live and choose, we in essence choose heaven or hell for ourselves every day in almost every choice. We are here to learn to choose good and follow God. We are here so that we will understand our judgement. A holy and perfect God didn't create slaves, He created humans who can choose good or evil.

God bless,
Jay

I just wanted to ask you a question. If we are slaves, either to sin or Christ, how can we then call ourselves free, or attempt to claim freedom (slaves do not have freedom by nature)?

I just wanted to ask you a question. If we are slaves, either to sin or Christ, how can we then call ourselves free, or attempt to claim freedom (slaves do not have freedom by nature)?

Brian,
Does slavery remove a man's free will? No. Does it make it more likely that he will follow a specific course of action? Probably, but he still chooses whether to obey or not. If slavery removed free will, no slaves would have ever escaped or disobeyed their master.

God bless,
Jay

Jay,
I just wanted to reply to your reply to matt. It seems to me that you confuse human justice with God's justice. God made man for one reason only -- His pleasure. we can say that God loves us and sent Christ to die for our sins, but this is human rationalization. Yes, God loves us, but only because it pleases Him to do so.
So, human justice says that we get what we deserve. Adam screwed humans over when he sinned. We are condemned to Hell from the moment of conception. human justice says we all deserve to go to hell. God has decided, though, that He desires to save some. In the Old Testament, this was Israel. He allowed outsiders to come in occasionally (Rahab, Ruth, Uriah the Hittite) but usually He ordered His Chosen People to exterminate whole nations -- women, children, even animals. This is the God we serve. Yes He is loving and just, but only to His chosen. The wonder is not that God condemns people to hell from before conception (Esau), but that He saves anyone. Be very thankful that God does not follow human justce, else we would all be in Hell.
Determinism may not sound "just" or "fair" and maybe it's not, but neither did God ever promise fairness.

Hi All,

I will give you my 2 cents. This is a very deep
question and there is no easy answer. One could take the position that God made us, He puts the choices before us and He is ultimately in control. This can turn someone againts God...

I say that I don't know the answer .. What I think is, that we have LIMITED FREE WILL.

We are free to decide Choice A or B or C. Many of our problems are because we make poor choices
and must suffer the consequences of those choices
or we get blessings because we made Good Choices.

God does have a master plan. Since He is all knowing He knows what choices we will make but
He allows us to decide for ourselves what we
will choose for the most part.

There are some exceptions like the example of
the Hardening of Pharoah's heart against the Jews
in Exodus. Or like with Jonah. He wanted him
to preach to the inhabitants of Ninivah. Jonah
didn't want to do what God wanted and He ran
from what God wanted. God sent the Great fish
to swallow him and to spit him out on the
shore of Ninivah.. So in this case it didn't seem like Jonah had much of a choice...

He softens hearts and hardens hearts... He is God.. HE could have created a bunch of Zombies or Robots that obeyed Him without question but
He didn't .. I admitt I don't fully understand
it... So at this point in the race, I will have
to go with LIMITED FREE Will.. I think He gives
Everyone the opportunity through choices put
before them to either Choose Him or Reject Him..
How we Choose is Up to us...

Grace & Peace,

Clem

Jay I must trully ask you a question. Do you ever get sick of playing the card of just and loving. Seriously, it doesn't hold water and that is all you use.
Let me pose this question to you, at what point did the human race become a race of sinful people. Hopefully you answer at the Garden of Eden. Next let me ask you, when did man seize to be a sinful race and deserve a life with God.
I have yet to find that place in scripture. That is because it does not exist.
Humans have a sinful nature from the day they are born. Everyone is deserving of hell, but God by His Grace chooses who He will save. There is no fallacy in this statement. God chooses people to go to heaven and God chooses not to choose certain individuals which means they go to hell.
Another thing that has been bothering me for a long time is you saying that God is not just or loving if he sends people to hell. What are you trying to do? You are making God fit your own description. You are taking the God of the universe, the I AM, and you are trying to make Him human. Who made the laws of justice and love. Did not God make them, instead you put your own ideals in the place God has put his. QUIT TRYING TO MAKE GOD FIT YOUR IDEALS. IT WON'T WORK. God is God and is just in whatever he does, there is no way around this.

Richard Wan I was curious on how you believe that humans have free will. Just because God wants all to be saved does not mean we have a free will. I'm not sure how you can connect the two. If you could give me some more detail on how you connected the two that would help alot. All men are sinful Richard, since the fall. No one has been able to somehow reach perfection well on this earth. Now think with me, if we have a sin nature, and everything we do is contrary to God there is not way we would choose God if we were given free will. We would only choose what we want and since we have a sin nature we would want nothing to do with God. Here is another reason why Everything must be predetermined. or look above for my explanation of my view, Compatibilism.

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll answer matt's question. If God desires all to be saved and not everyone gets saved, then God must be permitting a will other than his own to influence the salvation of souls.

In the Bible, God repeatedly tells his people to choose the right way, to love God and to love neighbor. This presupposes free will. You cannot choose God without free will, you cannot love God without free will, you cannot love your neighbor without free will. God does not command the impossible. The Bible even repeatedly says that he is not asking the impossible.

Richard God wants all to be saved, but it is not his will for all to be saved. You say that God has repeatedly told his people to choose the right way, and that is somehow says that everyone has free will. Well guess what it doesn't. Have you not read any of the stuff that is written above? Why don't you read what I wrote on May 2 and see if that makes sense to you.

Your claim is that we cannot choose God without free will. So I am suppose to believe that a person with a sin nature can somehow in light of who knows what, come to realize that he believes in the God whom is completely opposite of his beliefs. hmm interesting. This is impossible. Our only chance to be saved is through God choosing us, which happened before the earth was born. He predermined, he picked who he would have mercy on and who he would not.

Lets look at some verses in the Bible and see what they say. I'm going to base my beliefs on what the Bible says.

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Romans 9:11-14
Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

I suggest you continue reading this passage of scripture. It'll go on to talk about Pharoah and how what he did was predestined by God.

Paul answers your question regarding God telling his people to choose the right way.

Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. the others were hardened,

Here's a couple of verses telling us that free will does not exist unless you see it through Compatibilism, (May 2). God's verdict is that He choose us and we did not choose him. Free will does not exist. God has determined everything, while you were still in your mothers womb.

matt, perhaps God has hardened my heart then and predetermined in my mothers womb that I would not buy your interpretation of scripiture.

perhaps he has predestined me to believe that he wishes us all people to love him freely.

if what you say is true and i have no freedom, and nothing other than God's grace will cause me to believe other than i believe now, then this would mean the scriptures would be unable to make me realize this.

Sometimes I do wonder, however, if Calvinism is just the Protestant version of the Jansenist heresy...

First of all, all who believe in free will are complete blockheads. Whoever believes in free will is predestined to go to hell. So I guess you're right, you have the free will to go to hell. Sometimes I think the catholic religion is a host for heresy and a den of thieves and child molesters.

First of all, all who believe in free will are complete blockheads. Whoever believes in free will is predestined to go to hell. So I guess you're right, you have the free will to go to hell. Sometimes I think the catholic religion is a host for heresy and a den of thieves and child molesters.

Hi all,
I just wanted to reccomend that we refrain from blindly insulting people at this site. Reading these postings has been real encouragement to me to seek the truth, no matter how hard it is too accept. If we devolve into calling each other heretics and worse, how have we learned from history? It is a gut reaction of the historical church to condemn what they do not or cannot understand. some of these, to be sure, deserved condemnation. Yet all views deserve a chance to be heard. Reasoned debate, not unintellegent and biased insulting will lead us closer to Christ. Mr. Mourhed should be ashamned of himself.
God bless

Titus, BELOW ME

Richard:
I'm sorry that you believe that my ideas are heresy. That is a pretty strong word for ideas that you do not understand. I have realized over time that your beliefs are not backed by any scripture references. As soon as I state references that back my beliefs, you call them heresy. Is your Bible different from mine? Does your Bible have different verse markings? I sure hope not. I challenge you to base your beliefs on the Bible. Don't believe what you do just because your church says it is right. I encourage you to read and study the Bible and find references to back up your beliefs. Otherwise I would say that the heresy is not what I believe, but that true heresy comes about by adding to the Bible what it does not say.

Hello fellows. Great discussion we have going here. Althought I respect everyones opinions, I have to take the side of the ones who believe in Free Will, or the Catholics. I myself am Apostolic, and we believe firmly in free will. Matt, your verses prove nothing right, in fact, check out John 11:35, which clearly states free will. Also, see Daniel 7:2. Here God clearly explains to Micah that he has the free will to choose his own path, and that although God knows our future, he does not predestine our souls in the afterlife. Predestination is clearly made up, and can not be attributed to a loving god. If you need more Biblical proof from me, see also 1. Kings 17:4, and the clincher Exodus 21:2.
Good luck proving me wrong.

Dr. Wao:

You must have a different Bible than I, as these verses seem to me to be just random verses that you picked out of thin air. Please explain your point further.

In Christ,

Thomas

Thomas,
Apparently we are reading different Bibles. Mine says Holy Bible and is inspired by God. I'm eager to hear what yours is. Anyway,my point is clearly stated in Romans 12:3, where Paul tells the Romans that they DO have free will, and that God has not predestined us. Check it out.
Yours Truly,
Dr. Ming Wao

Dr. Wao:

Is this some kind of joke? The verse you quote is this "For by grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you." Romans 12:3

Here are some other verses you have quoted

"Jeses wept." John 11:35

"Daniel said: 'In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea." Daniel 7:2

"You drink from the brook, and I have ordered the ravens to feed you there." I Kings 17:4

"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything." Exodus 21:2

Now I am not the smartest person on the block, so please let me know how these verses relate to the free will/predestination debate. I will await your exegesis with bated breath.

In Christ,

Thomas

Thomas,
It is easy to see how this supports free will. Jesus had the free will to weep, and Daniel had the free will to look at night. Are you Thomas or retarded? Are you doubting, Thomas? HAHA, sometimes I crack myself up.
Your friend,
Dr. Wao

DOubting Thomas,
By the way, his name is Jesus, not Jeses, get it right ideut.
By demons be driven,
Dr. Wao

Allow me to throw out a new idea, since we will never be persuaded based on biblical arguments. We have our beliefs, one of the most dangerous things we can have if we want to use unbiased reason, and we argue to defend God and save Him from unkindness or injustice. We are caught up in the moral arena, which we must escape if we are to draw logical conclusions about determinism, whether for it or against it.

We would all agree that God has, in the past, determined that some event would take place. That is, we can agree that God determined for Christ to be crucified at a certain time. Now Chaos would teach us that every event, no matter how small, affects other events. It is not unreasonable to say, then, that every event in the world, in some way, has an effect on the rest of the world. If this is the case, which it seems to be, then it must also be the case that God determined all the events which were necessary for Christ to be crucified at the appointed time, e.g. Christ being in Jerusalem for Passover, the priests being angry about Jesus ministry, Pilate being on rocky ground with Caesar after rebellions in Judea, Judea having been a part of the Roman Empire, the Roman Empire coming into existence and thriving, and the Jews being allowed back into Judea after their captivity. Maybe God had to pull a few strings to ensure that circumstances would be right in order to influence important players toward certain decisions such as moving to be named Caesar so that the proper authority structure could exist to give proper context for Christ to be crucified, a view which comes dangerously close to Open-Theism, or maybe God determined that those events would occur and used human will as the agent by which his will would be done. Perhaps, if I may be so bold as to say it, His doing so shows the elect a portrait of His kindness and His love in being willing to die a horrible death for our sake.

Many of us would claim that God has a plan for our lives and more of us would claim that God wants some single event to occur at some time in the future. A vast majority of us would probably claim that there are many things which God purposes to do, and in fact achieves, through human agents every day. If God has decided that these things are important enough that they must happen, as many of us will claim, it is not unreasonable to suppose that God has determined all events that could sway the results He demands in order that His will would be achieved. Don't think of it on the moral level, think of it on the practical level.

As long as we're all mentioning the moral, though, let me throw in one more thought. In Romans 9 Paul explains that God hardens those whom He will harden. As was discussed earlier. As I recall, the question which followed, or the statement which followed, was something along the lines of, "Why would God blame us if he predestined it to be so?" Now read Romans 9:19-24:

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fauly? For who resists His will?"
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded willnot say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

So it would seem then that Paul didn't even offer an answer to why God holds us responsible if we have no choice and are only acting according to our nature. After all, Paul says, it is God's prerogative to destroy us or to save us, depending upon what He desires. And, if we are to believe Paul, God has desired for at least one person (namely Pharaoh) to be destroyed.

These are my thoughts for now.
God bless.

Dan

>
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Woah, hold on there partner. We are eternally secure. If someone leaves the faith, they were never there to being with:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
1 John 2:19

Chris Poteet,
I recommend you read this article, Can we lose our Salvation?. You're using one verse and ignoring all of the others that clearly say salvation can be lost.

By the way, I suggest you look into the Greek translation of 1 John 2:19. ;-)

God bless,
Jay

I dont think that the lose of salvation argument is one that this thread is concerned about right now. It is mainly the issue surrounding free will and determinism.

I hear often of the determinist using the scriptures of Romans 9 and probly through chapter 11 as they often do. I would submit to you that you need to closer study the word as it is laid out. These three chapters in the book are written as a unit not as a break up they are all interdependent. After looking at them closly in the greek you can not back the position that it is talking about eternal condemnation but rather the justification that God has picking gentiles. This is also the common theme through out almost all of Pauls books and the gospels. I would like for you who say that it is not about that to name a credable scholar who has looked at the original language.

Brother in Christ
Adam

Adam, your comments regarding the 9th chapter of Romans through the 11th chapter I find quite interesting. However, I must disagree. You seem to be looking at the explicit theme while ignoring the implicit theme. This is not a good way to interpret the Bible. Is the scripture talking about Jews and Gentiles, yes, however it is also talking about God choosing who is going to be saved. God chooses some to be saved and not others. It can be clearly seen through careful look at the passage.
Another problem I have with what you wrote is when you say that we need a credible scholar in order for our view point to count. This sounds like you are saying that common people can not understand what the Bible means and this is not correct.
Now lets take a look at Romans 8: 28-30. "And we know that all things GOD works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to HIS purpose. For those GOD foreknew HE also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of HIS Son, that HE might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those HE predestined HE also called; those HE called, HE also justified; those HE justified, HE ALSO glorified." These verses speak for themeselves. God called, God justified, God glorified, we have nothing to do with any of those steps. Everything has to do with God.

im currently taken Philosophy in college and its quite mind boggling. Free will and determinism; what a duo. Its seems as if this quarrel b/w these two words will never end. Maybe its determined that we never come to an agreement, but we have the freewill to keep arguing. Why argue when it's determined that we will never come to an agreement. I have the freewill to post this comment but it can not determine that it will or will not persuade your opinion. Only you have the free will to do so.

OK guys... I am definitely a free will guy, but Romans 9:19 is tripping me up. One of my major beefs with determinism is the concept of responsibility for evil, and being blamable for our sins. But this seems to contradict that. But what sort of loving God would make a person to be evil, do evil acts, and then send him to eternal hellfire?
F

After 29 years as a Christian, for the largest part of that, leaning toward Calvin, I am looking again at the issue. This time because my chldren are interested in it. Previously I concluded that BOTH truths are taught...One, that man is responsible for his choices and that one of the choices before him is to fall on his face before God and beg for mercy or turn his back. The other truth is that no man comes to Jesus unless the Father calls him and draws him. In other words God has chosen and predestined. How can we reconcile these two truths? Previously I concluded that they cannot be reconciled by the feeble mind of man. His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts as the heavens are higher than the earth. Nonetheless, I'm going to give it another try and see what God reveals. I think one important implication that needs to be settled here is the issue of security. And this issue is inextricably tied to the free will/ determinism issue.

Bob

I do not think you guys who state a loving God would not do this have really read the scriptures carefully. God is not only perfectly loving he is perfect in all aspects (Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect). If He is perfect in all ways he is perfectly just(John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me),which means some MUST go to hell to pay for thier sins if nobody is sent to hell then no one has been punished.

In romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
If this is true how can someone freely chose God.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

By these sections all of man SHOULD go to hell but by Gods grace some are saved. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Hey Jay and everyone else. I have many things to say so I hope I can remember all of it. Anyway I would like everyone to read Romans 8 and 9 and tell me you don't believe that the Bible clearly says that God has chosen some to be saved. I will not go into double predestination, because the Bible is vague on this idea so I must come to the conclusion that God simply has chosen some to be saved and chooses to pass the others by. Now as far as free will goes, that is where it gets hairy. We do have a free will in one sense but we don't have free will in another sense...let me try to explain. God HAD to choose us, there is nothing in our nature that allows us to seek Him first. Do we all agree? If you don't then you don't believe in the sovereignty of God. This is what it comes down to--Do you believe God is sovereign? If you do then keep reading. Let me also say this before I continue, Election is not based on some foreknowledge either, God chose us before he created us. Since God is sovereign and is not constrained to time, He knows what our futures are (but remember that is not He chose to elect us)but we still held responsiblity over the choices we make even though God is sovereign over those decisions. Does that make sense? Many people don't understand why God would create people and love them so much but allow them to be condemned. God does love His creation. But God loved His Son too. Do you think He really enjoyed watching His only begotten son to be crucified? No of course not, but He willed it to happen for the greater good. Romans 20-21 says "On the contrary who are you O man who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use?" We can't question God's will, election glorifies Him, we can't question it even if it disturbs us. A lot of people question this idea of free will and election by quoting 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord...not will that any should perish. Well check out the context. Who is Paul writing to? People who are already elected as Christians. Of course God isn't willing for any of His elect to perish...and they won't! That should be exciting! If you don't agree with the context then think about what I said before maybe God isn't willing that any of His creation should perish but He allows it because it is glorifying to Him in a way we can't understand. I do disagree with Jay however,about losing our salvation. God doesn't willy nilly do anything. If I can say it in a nutshell if God chooses you He doesn't take that away. No one can pluck us from His hand. That includes us! Once we are justified thats it--that can't be taken away. Read John 5:24, Romans 8:1, Ephesians 1:13-14, and 1 Peter 1:3-4 if you don't believe me. Even if we shipwreck our lives in sin, God will never fail to preserve us and He will bring us safely home in the end. I have just one more thing to say about what I believe election and free will is all about: TULIP
Total depravity
Unconditional salvation
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Persevernce of the saints

Hi everyone. I would like to start out by saying that just a month ago I adamantly believed that free will was the correct view of of salvation. I was so sure of myself that I spent three days straight of countless hours searching to see if there was any fallacies in my thinking. Not thinking I would find any, I prayed that God would help me be open to others and teach me how I could disprove election (predestination). During this time, I found out that I was wrong. I now believe that the Bible does not support the free-will theory. I understand the idea of free will and would prefer to believe that, but find it inaccurate. I think I found a verse that we have failed to recognize as key in this subject. Romans 14:11 says that, "As I live says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God." That verse poses an interesting dilemna to someone who believes in free will. In the end, there is really no free will when it comes to recognizing who God is. There is no question, we will give praise to Him whether we want to or not. When I questioned election, my biggest mind block was the idea that we cannot truly choose to love God if He chooses to make some of us love Him and others not to. How could He chose to give eternal life to some and eternal agony to others. Romans 9:22 answers this question. It says that God chose some for destruction in order that those whom He has chosen might understand His glory. I found that I could not truly love God unless I saw how powerful He really is and how gracious He is to choose to save me. I would argue that if God gave us the choice to see who He is and then to choose Him, we would all choose Him. How could we not? That idea in itself limits free-will because we would not be able to not choose God. But He has chosen to do things differently. He has chosen to allow some of us to see Him as He truly is and to choose Him. Yes it is sort of our choice, but because of what and who He is, which is sovereign and amazing, we cannot help but chose God once we see Him. Here on earth, the elect can somewhat see Him, that is why we follow Him. But He has chosen not to allow others to see Him. Once again, I will state that we will all one day see who He truly is, and that is why every tongue will praise Him. I know that is really deep but think about it. I cannot deny this verse and neither can any other person who believes in free will. As stated previously, we also cannot deny Romans 8:30, where is specifically says God predestined some. I have found that although we can take some verses and make them support free will in a round about way, we have no verses that blatantly say God has given us free will. We do have verses that specifically say God has predestined us. How can we debate that and truly believe in the authority of scipture? As humans it is hard for us to believe that God is truly just and sovereign, yet merciful to some. If two people steal my wallet and I chose to allow one to be arrested and I let another one go free, am I unjust? No I am not. In fact, by doing this, I am being just and merciful. Which is hard to be. They both deserve punishment. I have chosen to give one of them a chance to go free and the other gets what he deserves. As humans we are so into the idea of equal punishment that we forget to realize who we commit the crimes against and who has the choice to let us go free. That is hard to understand so I will stop there and let you all think about it.
-Frodo Dave

Thank you everyone for your comments. I'm going to pitch my tent in the camp of free will now.

I agree that it is important to seek a deeper understanding of God, but I also recognize that if I am faithful to what God has called me to do, then this issue becomes minor indeed. If those of us who lean toward determinism are faithful to share the gospel as God leads and those of us who lean toward free will recognize God's ultimate soverignity, I think we'll be ok. So many issues divide us, and I understand the complexities of this issue in particular, but if we're all serving, all ministering, all striving to grow in Christlikeness, then I don't see how this is such a big deal.

A question that many people came very close to, but I heard no one ask specifically is: "What is free will?" Everyone seems to have a preconceived notion of what free will means, and it appears to vary slightly. With this comes the idea of responsibility and often the idea of some system of justice. God is the system of justice, there is no higher by which to judge Him. As for responsibility, we are responsible for our actions as much as we exist. We only exist through God's will to create us; we are not independent of Him in any way. Yet He judges as is right, discerning between good and evil. On a practical level, we have the ability to choose just as we have the responsibility of our choices. This simply means that our ability to choose, which we accept as a given, has consequences by God's just will. When one takes a broader view, it can be seen that both our choices and our fate, as well as our existence itself, is from God. Thus both views, while seemingly incompatible, are correct in their own frame of reference. It is an unbalanced view to look at God's sovereignty in our choices without recognizing His sovereignty in our creation and our lack of an identity outside of Him. Conversely, it is unbalanced to recognize His sovereignty in our creation and our ability to choose, giving the impression that our choices take precedence over His. It seems to me that 'free will' and 'choice' are valid terms to describe our own ability to process information. (I use the term 'information' generically to mean any type of input such as values, beliefs, circumstantial knowledge, etc.) Similarly 'predestination' and 'determinism' are valid terms to describe our existence completely in and from God.

I hope that my words work for your building up in wisdom and the knowledge of God.
May God keep you and bless you out of the riches of His will
Grace and peace to you, Kalev.

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