DeoOmnisGloria.com

And men like Hahn are standing on the shoulders of others like Newman, Aquinas, Augustine, Jerome, etc.....kind of comforting to know we're simply links, rather than having to be the whole chain ourselves. :)

It may be the spirit of the age (and I'm not particularly fond of the 'menu of denominations' idea myself), but a cogent debate via electrons sure beat an earlier spirit of the age, which lead to debate being conducted via fire and sword...

LOL! Can't dispute that. But an "amen" to Jay, and what an indescribable joy it is to share the Truth with others.

In Christ,
Dave

Dear Friends,

As I didn't know how to get in touch with you personally by email, I just wanted to let you know that I am starting RCIA classes on Monday. I believe I would have come to this decision soon enough, but your site has helped me learn more about this great faith.

Just wanted to say thanks, and keep up the good work!!

Janey

What wonderful news, Janey! I will pray for you, as you are received into the warm and loving embrace of our Mother. Welcome Home!

In Christ,
Dave

Janey, Praise be to God and congratulations to you! I cannot tell you how thrilled I am for you, what a wonderful and mysterious journey you are about to begin, may your journey never end! The Catholic church is truth! Through the sacraments and your faith, the blessings will pour on you... that is what I know and certainly what my prayer for you is and will be.
Please keep us updated.
I have tears in my eyes I'm so happy for you!
God bless you and keep you!

In Christ's love,
Krista

PS Thank you so much for sharing this information with all. This joyful news makes our whole night! (I'm speaking on behalf of myself and my husband Joe) God bless you Janey!

Dave, you were Protestant and became a Catholic. I was Catholic, and became a Protestant. Just as you saw the truth through the catholic church, I saw it thourgh the Protestant church. I don't know if you've shared your convertion before, or if you even think it is something that you want to share, but I would be interested in knowing what points in Catholic doctrine made you believe that the Catholic church was the true church. If it's something you'd rather not share, I understand. Madeline

Madeline,
Just wanted to let you know that you can see my conversion story here. I, like Dave, converted to Catholicism. Basically there were several issues, but the key issues were:

• The Church. It became painfully obvious that Jesus did form a Church while on earth and guaranteed that that church would not fail. Once I determined which church it was, I felt obligated to follow Christ.
  
• Sola Scriptura. Another big issue for me was the realization that sola scriptura was not Biblical. In fact, it went against what the Bible taught.
  
• Sacraments. I also realized that the Sacraments were central to Christ's teachings (see John 6:47 ff for example). Only the Catholic church has the sacraments.
  
• Salvation. So I then studied salvation and realized my understanding directly contradicted the book of James. Whereas the Catholic understanding was agreeable to both James and Romans. At this point my last antipathy toward the Church crumbled and I came in on my knees.
  

God bless,
Jay

Jay, could you further explain why you think sola scriptura is not biblical, and why you believe all churches other than the Catholic church is built on sinking sand? Madeline

Madeline,
Sola Scriptura isn't in the Bible, first of all, and secondarily it ignores 1 Timothy 3:15 and Ephesians 3:8-10. It is a virtual requirement for protestanism, however. I've personally been involved in numerous discussions with protestants and in the end they all admit that sola scriptura isn't in the Bible, which violates the entire theory.

Protestant churches are based upon a single person's beliefs. There is no guarantee that that person will accurately understand the Bible or God's Will, which leaves them on sinking sand. We can see the ending of protestanism all around us: it started as one church and now has become over 20,000 - all teaching that they have the right interpretation of Scripture. Which one is right? We can be assured that the Catholic Church has the fulness of truth at all times! Thanks be to God!

God bless,
Jay

Jay, it is obvious that you are a very strong Catholic, and are very sure that the Catholic church is the true church. I praise your devotion, but would like you to see that people from other denominations are as strong a believer as you are, and that we don't feel that we are on sinking sand. Maybe the more we know about each other and understand each other, the more united we will be as Christian, and not separate and weaken ourselves with our difference. Here are my thoughts about whay you said: you saud that once you determined which church Jesus had established on earth you had no choice but to follow Christ. Jesus did not establish the Catholic Church nor the Lutheran Church, or the Baptist Church; His church were His believers. I too am a follower of Christ; a believer. You said that sola scriptura is not biblical and offered 1 Timothy 3:15 and Ephesians 3:8-10; 1 Timothy talks about what leaders of the church should be like, and Ephesians talks about Paul being given the grace to preach. Not sure what the connection to sola scriptura is here. You said that the Catholic church is the only church to have the sacraments. My understanding of the definition of a sacraments is that it is a sacred act of God , has certain visible means, is connected to the word of God, and offers, gives, and pledges forgiveness of sins. The big focus being FORGIVES OF SINS. My church sees baptism and communion as sacraments. I believe that the Catholic church also considers confirmation, matrimony, and Extreme Unction to be sacraments. As far as my salvation in relationship to James and Romans.... I believe that I am saved because of Jesus' death for me. Only His dying on the cross saved me from eternal death. I am not saved by my "good works" but only because of Christ death. His death was sufficient for my salvation, nothing more is needed, BUT as as a result of my faith, I want to lead a Christ like life, doing "good works" to obey His command to love my neighbor as myself. Madeline

Jay, it is obvious that you are a very strong Catholic, and are very sure that the Catholic church is the true church. I praise your devotion, but would like you to see that people from other denominations are as strong a believer as you are, and that we don't feel that we are on sinking sand. Maybe the more we know about each other and understand each other, the more united we will be as Christian, and not separate and weaken ourselves with our difference. Here are my thoughts about whay you said: you saud that once you determined which church Jesus had established on earth you had no choice but to follow Christ. Jesus did not establish the Catholic Church nor the Lutheran Church, or the Baptist Church; His church were His believers. I too am a follower of Christ; a believer. You said that sola scriptura is not biblical and offered 1 Timothy 3:15 and Ephesians 3:8-10; 1 Timothy talks about what leaders of the church should be like, and Ephesians talks about Paul being given the grace to preach. Not sure what the connection to sola scriptura is here. You said that the Catholic church is the only church to have the sacraments. My understanding of the definition of a sacraments is that it is a sacred act of God , has certain visible means, is connected to the word of God, and offers, gives, and pledges forgiveness of sins. The big focus being FORGIVES OF SINS. My church sees baptism and communion as sacraments. I believe that the Catholic church also considers confirmation, matrimony, and Extreme Unction to be sacraments. As far as my salvation in relationship to James and Romans.... I believe that I am saved because of Jesus' death for me. Only His dying on the cross saved me from eternal death. I am not saved by my "good works" but only because of Christ death. His death was sufficient for my salvation, nothing more is needed, BUT as as a result of my faith, I want to lead a Christ like life, doing "good works" to obey His command to love my neighbor as myself. Madeline

Amen Madeline,

From a Chrisitan Brother.

Madeline,
I agree that protestants do not see themselves on sinking sand, but I would suggest that they are mistaken. I pointed out two verses with key points in them: 1 Tim 3:15 states that the church is the "pillar and foundation of truth" (this contradicts sola scriptura) and Eph 3:8-10 says that "through the church the manifold wisdom of God will now be made known." Both point to the Church as a source of Truth.

You are suggesting that the church Jesus founded in Matthew 16:18 is not a physical entity. I responded to that in a post: The Visible Church and the Bible. Christ clearly had in mind a visible, physical church in Matthew 16:18, which is why He used the metaphor of Peter being the "stone" on which it is built. I would appreciate your thoughts on that article as well.

In terms of the Sacraments, you make a great point: some churches claim to have one or two of the seven Sacraments, but only the Catholic Church has all seven (Luther threw out some of them and the others were removed over time by various other men). My point is that if God offers us seven Sacraments, why wouldn't we accept as many as possible?

Finally, Catholics also believe we are saved by "faith working in love." Faith and works are the two blades of a pair scissors, as the old metaphor goes. As James insists: "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no works? Can his faith save him?" (James 2:14) Faith and works are inseparable and are both required.

Another item to think about Madeline is the Bible. The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament and compiled it (in 395 A.D.). In doing so they threw out books that the Bishops felt were not inspired by God. Ultimately the Bible remained the same until the 1,500's when Luther removed some of the books. The question is: how do you know you have the right set of books that God considers inspired? You can only know this through trusting in the Catholic Church's decisions - and in Martin Luther's changes. Just something to think about.

God bless,
Jay

Madeline,

Just so you know:

What is "This Rock?"

Our Lord's use of petros and petra side by side has been called 'a play on words.' The word 'play' suggests something light, not to be taken seriously. (Is there anything in all that the Lord has said that we should not take seriously?). Our Lord placed the word petra alongside the word petros deliberately and His disciples understood what He meant by petra for He had used this word once before in teaching His disciples and the multitudes, using it with a meaning that was unmistakable to them.

It was at the climax of that memorable address which became known as the 'Sermon on the Mount', in which He had set forth authoritative sentences, the great fundamentals of the Kingdom of God. Through it He had frequently corrected the scribes' superficial and foolish interpretations of the Law by the significant words: 'But I say unto you.' Later He said: 'Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away' (Matthew 24:35). And at the end of this searching 'sermon' He brought His hearers sharply up to the vital issue by an unforgettable parable: 'The house built on the rock (petra).'

He began that parable with the words: 'Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built a house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation (themelios) on a rock (petra)' (Luke 6:47-48).

Looking at God's Foundation

The Greek word themelios is uniformly translated in our English New Testament by the word 'foundation'; but today the 'foundation' generally includes the masonry work and the rock or other base upon which man lays his masonry foundation. Hence, when we meet the word 'foundation' in the New Testament it connotes for us both the masonry work (themelios) and its base (petra). We miss the point of the parable, however, if we fail to note that Jesus said the wise builder lays his foundation (themelios) upon the rock (petra). This petra is the primal, abiding foundation laid by God, upon which the wise builder lays his masonry foundation (themelios).

When Jesus spoke that parable (quoted from Luke 6:47-48) He made it very clear that He was that Petra upon which the wise must build; and He confirmed this decisively in the second part of the parable: 'And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended and the floods carne, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it' (Matthew 7:26-27). Thus He made it doubly clear that He is that Petra.

In Matthew 16:13-18, Jesus again uses the figure of building 'upon the rock,' giving His disciples that great revelation just preceding the Transfiguration. In the tense atmosphere which He had created, He focused their attention sharply upon 'the rock' (petra) by introducing the demonstrative pronoun 'this' (taute), which points to that which is present before them and important, and upon which Jesus wishes to fix their attention. Was it Petros, who proved anything but rock-like in the crucial test? (1)

Something vastly more important was gripping their attention there. Jesus had deliberately elicited from them the thrilling confession: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and He instantly confirmed the vital importance and authority of this great confession by telling them most solemnly that this fundamental truth had been given to them by a direct revelation from God the Father in heaven. It is this acceptance and confession of Himself as the Messiah, the Son of the living-God which is the rock upon which His Church is built.

This is the true meaning that has been confirmed down the ages by the fact that where men have accepted and confessed Him as the Son of God, Churches have risen and become great, and when their great leaders passed through the gates of death, His Church 'fell not: for it was founded upon a rock' (Matthew 7:25).

Other facts known to the disciples pointed to Jesus as the rock. Before His birth He was, by Divine decree, named Yoshua (Jesus), the short form of Yahovah-Shua (Yahovah-Saviour). The disciples were Israelites and knew the many references in the sacred Scriptures to Jehovah as their 'Rock.' Paul, looking back to the time Messiah was forming His Church in the wildemess, said the 'Rock' that followed (3) them ... was Christ (1 Corinthians 10:4).

It was in those far-off days in the wilderness that Moses sang: 'I will publish the name of the Lord the Rock. Then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation' (Deuteronomy 32:15).

'Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that forrned thee' (verse 18).

'How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?' (verse 30).

'For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges' (verse 31).

'There is none holy as the Lord ... neither is there any rock like our God' (I Samuel 2:2).

'The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; the God of my rock ... He is my shield' (2 Samuel 22:2,3).

'For who is God, save the Lord? And who is a rock save our God?' (verse 32).

'The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation' (verse 47).

'The spirit of the Lord spake by rne ... The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me' (2 Samuel 23:2-3).

'They returned and enquired early after God. And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer' (Psalm 78:34-35).

This glad testimony that Jehovah is their Rock runs right through the Old Testament Scriptures. The great and mighty 'Rock' was a Principal Symbol in the faith of the Israelites. The very words used in these many references to the 'Rock' make it quite clear that lifeless stone is not meant, but that the Living and Almighty Jehovah is that 'Rock.'

When the Lord had pointed to Himself as the Rock on which the wise builder must build, the meaning was plain to His disciples. Nor was it forgotten. A few months later Peter, in his forthright sermon, said, 'Ye elders of Israel' and 'Rulers of the people' and he drove home to them the fact that they had murdered Jesus the Messiah, but that God had raised Him from the dead and had made Him the Head of the Corner. A few days later he tells these 'elders of lsrael' again that this Jesus the Messiah, the Nazarene, Whom they murdered but God raised up, is that 'stone despised by you builders, which has become head of the corner,' and that 'There is no salvation by any-one else, nor even a second Name under heaven appointed for us men and our salvation' (Acts 4:11-12, Moffat).

Some years later Peter reaffirms this great truth when he is writing to 'the exiles of the Dispersion' (Diaspora) dwelling in great numbers in 'Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia' (1 Peter 1:1). (These were Israelites of the early dispersions by the Assyrians and Babylonians not 'the Jews' whom the Romans 'scattered'

Jesus THE ROCK.

God Bless

Simon,
First, in Aramaic, which Jesus was speaking in Matthew 16, there is only one word for Rock: Cephas. You argue that the confession, not the person Peter is the rock. Then I have a question for you, why did they start calling Simon (his name until then) by the name Cephas? All the disciples immediately changed Simon's name to Peter (which is our translation of Cephas). If you are correct this would make no sense.

The name change was only done one other time in the Bible - to Abram who became Abraham. Your assertion that the confession and not the confessor is an attempt to get around the truth that God set out, but it is incorrect. I recommend you read some of our other articles that point out the leadership position Peter had from that point on. Or the articles that detail all of the Biblical references to the Church and how it is obviously a physical entity.

The person confessing this truth was renamed "Rock" and immediately Jesus said "and on this Rock I will build my church." Yes, Jesus is the Rock as well, this simply underlines the importance and the role Jesus put upon Peter at that point. In John we see Jesus handing Peter the role of shepherd as well ("Feed my sheep") - another emphasis on the role of Peter after Jesus went to heaven. Peter is Christ's representative on earth.

God bless,
Jay

Before anyone jumps on this point, Jay, I should mention that two other names were changed. First, Sarai (Abraham's wife) was changed to Sarah. Second, Jacob's name was changed to Israel. Both name changes were from God. Of course, your underlying point remains just as valid. All of these name changes signified momentous events that uniquely applied to that particular individual. If "rock" really meant something else (even as a vehement Protestant it was obvious to me that Jesus was referring to Peter), than why does Jesus change Simon's name? If it wasn't something especially personal, no name change was necessary.

One other point that should be made is that petros (Peter) is masculine, referring to Peter and petra (upon this "rock") is feminine and refers solely to an object. The difference in the Greek (petros vs. petra) is so appropriate because there is no way Jesus could have named Peter "petra". A man cannot have a feminine name. Why it is so hard for Protestants to understand that is beyond me. When Jesus said He would build His Church upon this "petra", the gender changes because He is now referring to Peter's function (i.e. as a rock or "petra") rather than assigning him a name.

In Christ,
Dave

Jay and Dave,

I am not denying a church on earth(the body of Christ). I am trying to point out that Jesus is the Rock. Yet you have no answer for any examples given in the old testament about who the ROCK is. You skipped right by it. There is a parallel between the Old and New, correct?

You guys are spinning wheels here. You are not getting the point! Jay, Peter was called Cephas, correct, which is interpreted "Stone". Is Peter the only stone? I don't understand your positions at all. Look at this verse 1Peter 2:4,5

To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone(Jesus), disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,

You also, as lively stones(plural), are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. There is a difference between a stone and rock.

Dave,

upon THIS(Jesus) rock, I will build my church.

God Bless

Simon

Before you put a spin on it. At least read it in context!

Simon,
Jesus was clear - you're spinning it! Let's look at the sentence:

You are Cephas, and on this cephas I will build My church.

• Matthew's view of Church, which shows how Matthew understood the church
  
• 50 Proofs of the Papacy that shows how the Bible clearly depicts a pope.
  

God bless,
Jay

Jay, I have a feeling that we could discuss this subject again and again concerning the one true chruch and still come out believing what we each believed in the beginning. It is obvious that you are a scholar in the bible,and in the beliefs of the catholic church. And though I feel like I'm way out of my league here, I will give it my best to explain my beliefs and address what you wrote. Again in addressing the word "church"; first of all I believe that the word "church" itself is never mentioned in the Old Testament. Now in the new testament we have the word "church". The Greek word for church is "ecclesia" meaning "one who is called out". Notice that it means "one who" is called out, "who" referring to a person not a thing. The church was built not on a physical rock, but on Ephesians 2:19-22 which clearly states that Jesus is the corner stone of the church, obviously not a physical church. Did a physical churches exist? It would be silly to argue that point; all we have to do is look back at history to see all the beautiful churches that were built. The first christian church(people :)) met at homes. When the size of believers grew to where homes were not suitable for gathering in His name, churches(buildings) as we now know them came into existance. The first leaders of the church were Jesus' disciples. Jesus command to them was "Go make disciples of all nations..." Matthew 28:19 Jesus did not command them to go and built churches and establish a church government Eventually, we know that the physical church became a huge business, owning vast amounts of land and having a huge economic influences on the people. Did these early Christians have any intend to fall away from the original command of Jesus to make disciples of all nations; I don't think so, but it happened. We know that by the time of Martin Luther the church was making people pay (indulgences) for the forgiveness of sin. Did Jesus ever say that we had to pay to have our sins forgiven? We are all human and capable of mistakes. Earlier you said that we have to trust the Catholic Church and Luther's changes in knowing which are the books of the bible which were truly inspired by God. I believe that there are good Christians in both the Catholic church and in the Protestant church, but because we are all human, we are not infallible, and our interpretations differ because of our imperfections. Only when we see our Lord face to face will He be able to give us the absolute interpretation of the Bible. One thing which I am sure of because Jesus said it Himself, is that we are suppose to love our neighbors as ourselves, and as wonderful as this site is, and as much information that we are getting and as much as we are learning from each other, let us not forget that we are on the same team...Believer. Having said that, let me touch lightly on the subject of the sacraments: I guess our difinition for sacrament is different also. We have Baptism, Comfirmation, Communion, Matrimony,Repentence(Penance),Ordination (Holy Orders), and we do give communion to our sick and annoint with oil if that is the wish of the indiviual(Extreme Unction), but we only consider Baptism and Communion as sacraments. Jay, James 2:14 does give food for thought about works, but what about Ephesians 2:8-9 which says "For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast."

Jay,
How dare you proclaim that Catholicism is the one true church founded by Christ. The early Church was a bunch of Jewish people for crying out loud! Jesus was not thinking, hmmm, i want the Church to be called "Catholic", and I want them to have one main head, which is gonna be this guy called the "Pope".....I don't think Jesus said that or neccesarily wanted that. The Body should be the real Church, and people should stop getting caught up in denominational or doctrinal differences, as long as the issue of salvation by faith is not in question.
Secondly, baptism does NOT give you salvation. I think that you have said something to this affect many times, and if you do believe that, then you are wrong. What about the theif on the cross, who never got the chance to be baptized? Jesus promised him paradise that same day. Are you saying that Jesus lied? Baptism is the outward demonstration of an inner desire to pursue a closer relationship with the Lord and is a public confession of that intent and of your faith. I do NOT believe that it alone washes away your sins, or your mortal sins or whatever else kinds of sin you believe in. Salvation is the only thing that can wash your sins away forever, not baptism. You get baptized after you are saved, hence why infant baptism is WRONG. You yourself have to make the decision to follow Christ, and so infants should not be baptized, because there is not proof in the Bible that infants were. Many children were brought to Jesus for healing and such, but it never once says that Jesus baptized any of them. They did not come to Him for baptism. You said something about good works and salvation being two blades on the same pair of scissors or something like that, and if you were talking about having to work your way to Heaven to ensure your salvation, then you are horribly and utterly wrong.
Good works should come out of a love for Christ and a desire to do His work and will on this earth, yes, but the way you put it makes it sound as if you believe that a person needs both the enter the kingdom of Heaven, and that is wrong.
And don't even get me started on your view of Mary.... I understand that Catholics do not worship her or place her higher than God, but i do not agree with you that people should pray to her...she's a dead woman. She is dead. Why pray to someone who is dead, who is already at Home? I know that there is communion with the saints and all that jazz, but that does not imply that we should all be praying to them like they are gonna go talk to God for us and intercede on our behalf.
And yes, i do ask living and breathing people to pray for me, because that is different from asking Mary or a saint to pray for me.....the people I ask to pray for me are here physically on this earth and have not went Home. There is still time for their prayers to reach the ears of God on my behalf.
Jay, I am sure that you disagree with a lot of what I have just said, and I am not trying to put Catholicism down, because a few of my closest friends are Catholic, but they belong to such evangelist groups such as Campus Crusade for Christ,and they realize that little differences do not matter, as long as the main, crucial issues of salvation and the Bible are agreed upon.
I know this is your website and all, but please stop asserting that your religion is the only true one and Christ Himself handed to the world on a silver platter and said, "Here, this is the way I want you to go."
That is very presumptious and just plain incorrect to say.
Anyway, God Bless you, and for the love of God, can you please tell Peggy not to write so much? She says a whole, whole, whole lot of stuff without ever really saying anything of importance and never gets to her purpose for writing until she's exhausted the reader. Besides, she does not back any of her assertions up with scripture or anything.
--In His Grip,
Oxford

Dear all,
Yes, I am aware that I did not cite Scripture or prove my statements, and that I wrote a very long paragraph also, which were the two things I begged Peggy to stop doing. I wrote a whole lot first of because I have never written one before, and I had a lot to say after having read a lot of different posts under different topics on this website. So cut me some slack there, because the next posts will not be nearly as long thankfully and will from now on include valid Scipture. I do not want to be a hypocrite in this area, and sorry if I sounded like one.
And besides, it's just fun to stir things up a bit, don't ya think? :)
In His Grip,
Oxford

Oxford and all,

I want to first defend Jay, and the others that run this blog. (Enjoy this Jay as this is the first time that this has happened, and it might be the last.) Jay can talk about the substantive issues. I want to address the statement that Jay is somehow wrong for asserting that Catholism is the only way to Christ. I want to address this because it has been raised by other vistors to this blog. I want to make three points:

1. I don’t believe that Jay has ever stated that the only way to be saved is being actively involved in the Catholic Church or believing in its many doctrines.

2. Jay is trying not to proclaim his own personal beliefs, but those of the Catholic Church. So if you want to get mad at someone, get mad at the Catholic Church for holding these views.

3. I disagree with Jay and the others, as my many comments can attest, but I’m not about to bash him for proclaiming true what he believes is true. In fact I respect him for being so bold as to stand up and say this certain thing is truth and there is no other. Now he may be wrong (and I believe he is on several issues), but at least he is not like the mealy mouthed wishy-washy relativist that proclaim there is no truth, or that we cannot know what the truth is. It is our job to convince each other through discourse where the Truth lies without saying “I can’t believe he just said he was absolutely right! How arrogant!” . . . Of course he thinks he is right otherwise he would change his mind. We all think we are right until we are convinced otherwise.

"How dare [Jay] proclaim that the Catholic Church is the one true church?" He dares because he must based on his convictions. It would be far better if we all lived our lives with as much conviction as Jay has.

Besides it’s not nearly as fun to argue with someone who gives in on every point. ;)

Grace, Peace, and Truth

Thomas

Thomas,

Very well Put... I agree with your sentiments..
Surprised Jay ?? I can only add that BOTH sides of these debates should do their best to refrain
from Sarcasm and making these debates personal.
Being Italian it is hard sometimes not to let
my passion speak and that does no good to make
my point.

Both sides need to remember that Only GOD and the
Holy Spirit can change hearts and minds...

A brother in Christ,

Clem

Dear All:

I write in response to Margaret. I hope she can come to understand that what has been said here is not for the purpose of excluding others or that Catholics believe they are superior because they have the true faith. The world is full of our "neighbors," and we are called upon to love them and help them. I do not know if I am a better person than Margaret or a worse person than Margaret. But I do know that Margaret has been misled.

Margaret, Jay said that the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Christ because it is true. All Christian religions that are not Catholic were begun by men who left the Holy Catholic Church (or churches that left the Churh) because their own agendas and founded their own "religions" without the authority from God to do so. If you will agree that if a thing is true, then that which opposes it must be untrue. Jesus founded the Holy Catholic Church, in many, many instances giving specific instructions to the Apostles. True, it was not called Catholic in the beginning but why would Jesus give it a name to distinguish it from other churches when He intended for it to be the only one? The Holy Catholic Church is Christ's teaching authority here on earth and any religion which is opposed to it or teaches anything contrary to it is a false religion.

You are correct that Baptism does not give you salvation. Baptism is a Sacrament. A Sacrament is "an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace." The Sacraments are aids to help us to salvation. "Baptism is birth in the life of grace." Infant Baptism is not wrong. It begins a person's life of grace. Note that Baptism (a Sacrament instituted by Christ) does wash away all sins a person may be guilty of at the time of Baptism, but you may only receive Baptism once. When you sin after that, to be absolved you need the Sacrament of Penance (Confession). I have not heard if other Christian Churches have Confession but only successors of the Apostles (priests) can grant absolution (through Christ, of course), anyway. "Peace be to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you . . . Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are gforgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." (John 20, 21-23)

Your argument that good works are not necessary for salvation confused me. I can only assume that you subscribe to "once saved, always saved." I would be interested to know how that particular idea is defended. However, if God does not expect us to serve Him and do good works (and we should do them out of love for God) but we should also do good works because it is our duty as Christians to do so. Do you really believe that it is possible for one to go to heaven without lifting a finger down here?

Now to the Blessed Virgin Mary. I must admit I got a little upset at your views on this one. I am very courious and would very much like to know why protestants have such enmity in their hearts for her. But that is beside the point. The point is that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the mother of God. He chose her to bring His Only Begotten Son into this world. She carried Him in her womb. She cared for him as an infant and as a child and she loved Him with a more perfect love even than the best mother among us can imagine. And she suffered with Him. Do you have children? Do you know the pain that stabs your heart when you see your child suffer? And you wish you could take the pain from your child and bring it onto yourself. She was with Him every step of the way. Oh, how she suffered! Yes, she did it for God. But she also did it for you and for all mankind. God commands you to honor your own mother. How much more should we honor His mother? I must admit it made me angry when you referred to her as dead. She is not dead. Do you believe that Jesus, the most perfect of sons, would leave His mother (who, out of her gentle and generous heart, sacrificed and suffered so) to corrupt here on earth after her death like any other pathetic sinner? Nonsense! He assumed her into heaven and there she is today. How on earth do you ever expect to get to heaven if she isn't even there yet? Are you better than she! And when you do go to heaven and she is there with her Divine Son, how will you address her then? I'm sorry. Truly, I am sorry at being upset. But I love her, I am soooo grateful to her and we are all indebted to her. How can you love Christ and not His mother? How would you feel if someone didn't love your mother? She lives and she loves you.

God also loves you and loves us all. That is why He did give us the Holy Catholic Church on a silver platter and said "Here, this is the way I want you to go."

God's love to you, Margaret, and mine.

Becky

Dear All:

I write in response to Margaret. I hope she can come to understand that what has been said here is not for the purpose of excluding others or that Catholics believe they are superior because they have the true faith. The world is full of our "neighbors," and we are called upon to love them and help them. I do not know if I am a better person than Margaret or a worse person than Margaret. But I do know that Margaret has been misled.

Margaret, Jay said that the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Christ because it is true. All Christian religions that are not Catholic were begun by men who left the Holy Catholic Church (or churches that left the Churh) because their own agendas and founded their own "religions" without the authority from God to do so. If you will agree that if a thing is true, then that which opposes it must be untrue. Jesus founded the Holy Catholic Church, in many, many instances giving specific instructions to the Apostles. True, it was not called Catholic in the beginning but why would Jesus give it a name to distinguish it from other churches when He intended for it to be the only one? The Holy Catholic Church is Christ's teaching authority here on earth and any religion which is opposed to it or teaches anything contrary to it is a false religion.

You are correct that Baptism does not give you salvation. Baptism is a Sacrament. A Sacrament is "an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace." The Sacraments are aids to help us to salvation. "Baptism is birth in the life of grace." Infant Baptism is not wrong. It begins a person's life of grace. Note that Baptism (a Sacrament instituted by Christ) does wash away all sins a person may be guilty of at the time of Baptism, but you may only receive Baptism once. When you sin after that, to be absolved you need the Sacrament of Penance (Confession). I have not heard if other Christian Churches have Confession but only successors of the Apostles (priests) can grant absolution (through Christ, of course), anyway. "Peace be to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you . . . Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are gforgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." (John 20, 21-23)

Your argument that good works are not necessary for salvation confused me. I can only assume that you subscribe to "once saved, always saved." I would be interested to know how that particular idea is defended. However, if God does not expect us to serve Him and do good works (and we should do them out of love for God) but we should also do good works because it is our duty as Christians to do so. Do you really believe that it is possible for one to go to heaven without lifting a finger down here?

Now to the Blessed Virgin Mary. I must admit I got a little upset at your views on this one. I am very courious and would very much like to know why protestants have such enmity in their hearts for her. But that is beside the point. The point is that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the mother of God. He chose her to bring His Only Begotten Son into this world. She carried Him in her womb. She cared for him as an infant and as a child and she loved Him with a more perfect love even than the best mother among us can imagine. And she suffered with Him. Do you have children? Do you know the pain that stabs your heart when you see your child suffer? And you wish you could take the pain from your child and bring it onto yourself. She was with Him every step of the way. Oh, how she suffered! Yes, she did it for God. But she also did it for you and for all mankind. God commands you to honor your own mother. How much more should we honor His mother? I must admit it made me angry when you referred to her as dead. She is not dead. Do you believe that Jesus, the most perfect of sons, would leave His mother (who, out of her gentle and generous heart, sacrificed and suffered so) to corrupt here on earth after her death like any other pathetic sinner? Nonsense! He assumed her into heaven and there she is today. How on earth do you ever expect to get to heaven if she isn't even there yet? Are you better than she! And when you do go to heaven and she is there with her Divine Son, how will you address her then? I'm sorry. Truly, I am sorry at being upset. But I love her, I am soooo grateful to her and we are all indebted to her. How can you love Christ and not His mother? How would you feel if someone didn't love your mother? She lives and she loves you.

God also loves you and loves us all. That is why He did give us the Holy Catholic Church on a silver platter and said "Here, this is the way I want you to go."

God's love to you, Margaret, and mine.

Becky

Becky,

You may not get this because it is FAR after the fact, but here it goes. Mary is not in Heaven with Jesus, and will not be in heaven until Jesus returns to bring his chosen people. Jesus did not want the Catholic church to be formed, and it is does not hold the correct beliefs. First, Catholics chose their Sabbath as Sunday. WHEN WAS THIS CHANGED. God wanted us to stick with his commandments.

In Romans 3:23 it says "For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God". This clearly states that all...EVERY PERSON..has sinner but Jesus because Jesus is God. Mary was not excluded from this. Let's say you are a mother and you love your child very much, more than life itself. Does that mean you have never sinned?

And i hope you do not compare Marys suffering with Jesus' Sacrifice on the Cross. That is beyond comparison, for he died for ALL the sins in the world. Mary did not suffer like Jesus did because she was not the Messiah.

Becky, we do not choose who God puts into Heaven, and we certainly do not have the right to Judge people by saying Mary is better or worse than we are. But the truth of the matter is that Jesus is better than any of us, including Mary, will ever be, so Mary does not deserve our worship, Jesus does.

As for Mary being in Heaven, she is not, and there is no Scripture saying that she is Holy, or that she was brought into heaven as Christ was brought into Heaven, although she might go to heaven when Christ comes back. They are NOT equals. All HUMANS are equal. Every single one. Everyone is a person of God, because God made us. Mary was full of grace because she had Jesus, but that does not make her spotless, because all humans are given the gift of God's grace.

Jesus was the one who is perfect, the one who is not like us sinners, not Mary. Which is why i don't understand the whole "Hail Mary" concept. In that prayer the focus is on Mary, not God. She died so she can't pray for you. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

On a Final note, No, God did not say that the Catholic church is the way to go. In the Bible, in no way does it say there should be a pope. It did not say that we should break commandments by making idols and changing the sabbath. We aren't supposed to follow commandments of men, but of God. There should only be one Mediator, Jesus. We dont have the right to say who is righteous and who isn't, so we should leave the act of calling people saints to God.

Till Next time,
David

Jay,
What a great discussion this Blog has going.
I was raised Protestant & then became Catholic 6 years ago. I have seen & heard a lot of resentment towards the Catholic Church - most of which is based on wrong information. Many of our prejudices are handed down from one generation to the next – you tend to grow up with your parent’s beliefs and don’t think to question them. I grew up thinking Catholics worshiped Mary, thought the Pope was God and thought confessing to another human would erase your sins. I never thought to really seek out and find out if these things were true, I believed them because I was raised that way. It wasn’t until I was Forty years old and searching for a faith to feed my soul did I really investigate these things (and found out they were NOT true!).
I think one thing that irks Non-Catholics off about Catholics is when we refer to Peter as the first “Pope” and then refer to the first Church as the “Catholic Church”. Peter was the first "human" in charge of the church and over time this position would be referred to as Pope. The same type of explanation can go for the Church - Jesus didn't say "Upon you I build my Catholic Church". Over time though the Church that was Christian (the only Church to follow Jesus) was called Catholic. The term catholic means all people (Jews and non-Jews). I think at times we must be a little sensitive when we say, "the Catholic Church is the one true Church" or "Peter was the first Pope" it comes across to other Christian Faiths that we are being arrogant and exclusive.
Tom

David,

You wrote:

"Mary is not in Heaven with Jesus, and will not be in heaven until Jesus returns to bring his chosen people."

So what did Jesus mean when he said to the repentant criminal "Truly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise"? (Luke 23:39-43). Does this not indicate that the souls of the faithful departed are in heaven with Jesus?

Your remaining assertions indicate a genuine lack of understanding of both scripture and Church history. This is demonstrated, for example, by the fact that Sunday has been the Christian day of worship since the apostolic age, and that in scripture Mary is addressed by the angel Gabriel "Hail, full of grace" (the Greek "kecharitomene", perfect passive participle of "charitoo", is most accurately translated as 'endowed with grace' or 'enriched with grace', as in Ephesians 1:6).

If you are serious about knowing God I strongly suggest that you borrow some books on these matters.

God bless.

Fidens,

When trying to correct someone, please give proof you understand the scripture. At least explain what YOU think it means.

Okay, so when Jesus promised the man he would be with him in paradise, did he say, "And all good humans are in heaven as well" And i thank you fidens for bringing some Bible scripture into this. Did that scripture say that Mary was in Heaven. NO. In fact, it says no where in the Bible that Mary is in Heaven. There are some humans that the bible says are in Heaven. From what I read, I know Enoch is in Heaven, and I can assume that Moses and Elijah are in Heaven. Of course Jesus is in heaven. Find me a Bible passage that says that all the good people are already in heaven, and that Mary is already there as well. She sinned like you and me.

My next point is that I dont care that the Sabbath was changed by the Church long ago. It is still wrong. The apostles did not follow the Sunday Sabbath, they followed Christ. Jesus was a Jew, so obviously they had to celebrate the Saturday Sabbath. Don't you believe we should follow the commandments? John 14:15 Jesus says "If ye love me, keep my commandments" Surely this doesn't mean switch them and change them around. Mark 7:7 says "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men"

When Gabriel spoke to mary, did he say, "Everyone should pray to you Mary, you're the other Mediator" Sure, I'll agree she was full of grace, of course she was. She was holding Jesus. Grace does not mean, however, that you are sinless. Grace is what God gives us to give us a chance to redeem ourselves. In Romans 3:23-24 it says "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"

This says that EVERYONE SINNED. not everyone but Mary. The way to heal yourself from sin is to trust in God and to worship God and freely accept Jesus into your life. I believe Mary did this, but that does not mean she is sinless.

Mary not being in Heaven, it is true and it says it if you read the Revelations. I just want to clarify, I do not doubt she was a good person, it is just that no one should pray to her, or say she is still alive.

I am serious about know God, and i will not borrow a book but the Bible. It is the only thing that I know will always be correct.

David

David,

I am under no obligation to explain what I think it means at any time, though you are welcome to ask. I ask questions to test your assumptions, to elicit more information *before* raising any any objections (if you don't like being tested - fair enough).

I can, however, attempt to infer from your statement what it appears you think it means: That the contrite criminal is now in heaven with Jesus, but that no one else is. Is this the case?

BTW How do you know that the Bible is correct as opposed to, say, the Koran? Or the Book of Mormon?

God bless.

Fidens

I didn't say that NO ONE is in heaven. I'm saying that what I get out of it is that when Jesus returns, THAT will be the time when he brings people into heaven. Plus, if YOU think they are already in heaven, why pray for them, they are better off than you are. And even IF they were in Heaven, that doesn't give you the right to pray through them. Jesus is the ONLY mediator.

The reason i know the Bible is correct is because I have faith.

David

David,

Please don't take my questioning the wrong way - I am not simply trying to be antagonistic.

Catholics don't pray *for* people in heaven - we ask them to pray for us. The prayers of the righteous avail much you know.

Muslims have faith too, as do Mormons. Are their texts correct too?

Peace,

Tim

Fidens, Tim, whoever, there are two names listed :)

You don't need to ask the dead to pray for you, all you have to do is ask Jesus, HE CAN HEAR YOU. They are dead, and if you pray to them to pray to God, they are acting as a mediator between Man and Jesus, which we don't need. AGAIN the dead know nothing. Pray to Jesus and He'll hear you. You can ask a living person to pray for you because they are ALIVE, and Jesus is a Mediator between God and MAN.

Also, although Muslims and Mormons have faith in what they believe, no, I do not believe they are correct. If I thought they were correct, don't you think I'd be practicing another religion right now. I have faith in the words in the Bible, in God, the Trinity.

Till Next time,

David

David,

You are missing the point - how do you *know* that the other faiths are not correct? It's a serious question.

A warm feeling in your tummy?

It 'feels' right?

You just... "know"?

Peace

David, please correct me if I have misunderstood you but do you mean to say that you ask Jesus to pray for you?!

If so, this has got to be a first. Catholics say, "Lord, have Mercy" or "Lord save us" or "Lord, hear our prayer". We never ever say "Lord, pray for us". I have never ever heard a Protestant say "Lord, pray for us" either.

Or are you saying that I shouldn't ask anyone at all to pray for me because I can just go to Jesus?

Dear David:

Thank you for your comments regarding the Church and the Blessed Virgin Mary. I was unable to discern your religious background from your arguments. At first I thought you were Jewish because of your arguments on the Sabbath but later you argued that Jesus is the only Mediator, which would lead me to believe you are some kind of Christian. The Sabbath was changed on the third day, the day Christ resurrected, the beginning of the New Covenant.

Regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary, Tom brought up a good point that I did not think of, about the thief who hung next to our Lord on the cross. Is it logical that He would bring this thief into heaven with Him and leave His mother out? The truth is that Mary IS better than we are, not better than (or even as good as) Jesus. But she is better than we are. Who among us would merit carrying God in our womb? Only someone pure and sinless could have this relationship with our Lord - - Mary, our mother. The angel’s first words to her were “Hail, full of grace,” not a lot of grace or much grace, etc. When something is full, there is no room for anything else. And this was not because she was carrying Jesus because she was not carrying Him at the time the angel said this to her. It is true that she did not suffer just like our Lord suffered. Who could? He took upon Himself every sin in the entire history of the world. But you cannot minimize her suffering, either. (“Swords piercing her heart.”) You also cannot debate her motives (also pure): her love of God and her love for us.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is holy and she is not alone in this. There have been many holy men and women (yes, saints). The closer someone is to Christ, the holier that person is. Who was closer to Christ than His mother? I am not sure where you got the idea that I equate her with our Lord. It is true that she is not equal to Him. She is not God. She did not go to heaven the same way Jesus did. Jesus “ascended” into heaven. Mary was “assumed” into heaven.

The equality of human beings is a common error in this day and age of entitlement. While we were all created by God, the truth is that some people are better than other people. Of all of God’s creatures, Mary is the best. She is queen of the angels and saints. She is the mother of God.

As far as the Church, our Lord instituted the Church and the Pope in his conversation with Peter: And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earthy, it shall be loosed in heaven. (Mt. 16: 18-19) So Jesus did found a Church. It was not called Catholic because there was only one kind of Christian back then. There was no need of a word to distinguish one kind of Christian from another. And it is clear that Peter and the Church (note church is singular) were given authority on this earth by our Lord.

I apologize if my responses seem abrupt but I didn’t want to go on too long and you gave me a lot to respond to. Hope to hear from you.

Ave Maria!

Becky

Becky,

The Sabbath was never change by Jesus Christ. Provide scriptural proof where it says he did.

As for the thief on the Cross. You think that it is illogical for the thief to be in heaven but Mary not to be. I don't think that is for us to decide. We ought to go with what we actually know in Scripture, not by what some people tell us is true. If you notice, yes, the things I am saying or going to say are from the Bible. Why does everything always have to be logical, why not Biblical?

Mary is NOT better than we are. The Apostles are no better than we are. Humans are humans. Everyone is equal to God, it just depends on what you do with that priveledge when it is given to you.

Mary SINNED. Why can't you understand Romans 3:23 or Psalms 51:5?

How can you say that she was not full of grace because of Jesus?????? What are you talking about?! If Jesus was never here, no one would have known that Mary was alive, the Bible would only be the New Testament, and there would be NO APOSTLES. The Angel would NOT have come if Jesus was not going to be born.

The saints you say are holy. Who venerates the saints? I always thought it was the Pope, not God. If this is so, then who is saying that they are holy. Nowhere in the Bible does it give human authority to venerate saints or make such judgments.

According to the Bible, since Mary is NOT equal to God, she sinned, that's all there is to it.

I'm not sure where you see she was assumed into heaven. There are many many many texts in the Bible that tell you that the "good" people are not in heaven, with exception of those that the bible tells us are in heaven.

John 14:2, 3 "In my father's house are many mansions, if it were not so, i would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also" This shows that Jesus is COMING BACK for the good people, they aren't already there.

Matthew 24:31
"And he shall send his angles with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together, and his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
His elect, the good people again, will be gathered with the SOUND OF A TRUMPET. In other words, everyone will witness when the good are taken into heaven.

Revelation 1:7 tells us that EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM. That speaks for itself.

Matthew 24:27 says "For as the lighting cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be" Again, everyone will see it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 "for the Lord himself shall descend from the heavens with a shout with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first"

This is important because the dead in Christ must be risen. It does not say that the dead in Christ shall be in heaven. They must be risen from the earth because Jesus is returning to earth.

Acts 2:29 "Man and bretheren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried and his sepulchre is with us unto this day" And verse 34 "for David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand"

Was David a good person?? Of course, but he isn't in heaven. He is still dead. He was good, but verse 34 says he is NOT in heaven.

the Last text is 1 Thessalonians 4:16. "..the dead in Christ shall rise first" This means that the dead in christ shall rise first. Clever huh? they are dead, and if they were in heaven they would not need to be risen.

As for Peter being the Rock, I believe that Jesus is the Rock he referred to. Peter is more like a pebble as my sister said compared to Jesus.

comment back.

David

All,

Oh yeah, when Jesus says that he is building the church on the rock. You all think that he's talking about Peter. He is talking about Himself, Jesus, God. Just a thought.

David

David,
Then why did Jesus rename Simon "Rock" or "Peter"? You do understand that Jesus said, "You are Rock and on this rock I will build my Church"?

Sorry, but you're providing no evidence as to why the Bible is mistaken and you are right.

By the way, do you realize that you haven't won an argument yet? You've been disproven on every count. Doesn't that make you question your assumptions?

God bless,
Jay

Jay,

No need to get offensive, you're Christian right.

First, I haven't lost an argument yet.

Second, I find it weird how Protestants on this site, mostly Ramon, are basically teaching all Catholic beliefs.

What I say isn't an assumption, I get those things from the Bible.

Also, I should have put that "Rock" statement in question form, my bad.

You think I'm always losing arguments, but that's because you take advantage of the factthat this site is run by Catholics. Oh yeah, and a helpful "Protestant" who has Catholic beliefs.

David

When you simply parrot the phrase "it's not in the Bible" without thinking about where the Bible came from or why you believe what you read in it...

When you ignore historical evidence...

When you don't address the questions put to you...

News flash: you haven't just lost the argument - you've failed to even make an argument.

David - from now on I would like you to imagine that you are debating with muslims, that way you will realise how intellectually feeble the argument "it's in the Bible" is.

to..The dude,

Are you a Muslim? Am I preaching to a Muslim right now?

If I am, just tell me and I'll change my tactics.

If you are Christian then "it's in the Bible" can never be a feeble argument.

Let's say I am a muslim.

How can christians say they believe in one God, like the muslims and the jews, and then say that there are three Gods in the trinity? The word trinity is not even in the Christian bible - it was invented by christians!

Where in the bible does it say that the holy Spirit is God?

Why should I believe the bible and not the koran?

Point of clarification:
Christians believe in One God with Three persons in the Trinity. Each person is God but they are all the same God, not three Gods.

As for the bible vs the koran, one can look at the historical evidence that Jesus died and rose again on the third day.

Previous posts contain plenty of biblical references to God being Spirit. I think you can find some in the first chapter of Genesis.

BR,

With respect, by intervening you have let David off the hook. From reading his posts, I surmise that he does not know why he believes what he does - he can only parrot "it's in the bible".

Why believe the bible rather than the koran? I gather that the catholic answer is "because the church produced and preserved it." Fine.

David does not recognise the authority of the church and I want to hear HIS answer.

The bible mentions the holy spirit. It does not deny that the holy spirit is god, but nowhere does it afirm the doctrine of trinity either. There was a christian heresy that says that there is one god who can take different forms - this could be consistent with the bible.

So "The dude", you don't believe that something being in the Bible isn't "good enough" for a CHRISTIAN site.

Uh, ok...

the Dude said: With respect, by intervening you have let David off the hook. From reading his posts, I surmise that he does not know why he believes what he does - he can only parrot "it's in the bible"."

Do you know why I believe what I do. It's becuase I have faith in my religion. Sorry if that isn't good enough for you, it's good enough for me. For Jews it was prophesied that there would be a Messiah. I believe that. Then the Messiah came, and that is contained in the Bible as well as historically. And I find it weird how you say "with respect" yet compare me to a parrot.

And while the CATHOLICS on this site KNOW that when they talk to me they are talking to someone who goes by the Bible, they seem to like to "parrot" (see i used your word :)) writings and doctrines of men.

Sorry if Broken Record made you feel bad "dude", but although he isn't my religion, he's right. God has been shown as a spirit.

But dude, you are correct on something. I don't believe that the doctrine of the trinity is just God that takes different forms. No. I think it is three equal parts of the same God. They have the ABILITY to change forms, but that isnt what the doctrine is about.

David,

The questions, yet again:

Where in the bible is the trinity DEFINED?

Why believe the bible is true and not the koran?

I know what you believe David, I want to know WHY you believe it - "it's because I have faith in my religion" is a circular argument. Why is it your religion?

You don't believe in the authority of the church, this much is clear. If the Church is wrong, why do you believe in the book it wrote?

David,

In other words - you believe that the Bible is inspired right?

Why?

PS Parrot is just an expression.

Dude,

You said: "You don't believe in the authority of the church, this much is clear. If the Church is wrong, why do you believe in the book it wrote?"

The Church didn't write the Bible. Compiled maybe, but they didn't write it.

Let's do a rundown.

Moses wrote the first five. Joshua wrote Joshua. Other people wrote other books, I don't want to name all of them. David and Psalms...blah blah..

The NT, the Apostles.

The Church didn't write them, once again.

In the Bible the Trinity isn't defined. I guess you're right on that, but I don't know where you're going with that right now..All I remember about it is when Jesus tells them to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit.

You said: "Why believe the bible is true and not the koran?"

Well, because God promised a Messiah, and Jesus came. I believe he is the Messiah who died for our sins. In the Bible it contains this and says this.

Why do YOU believe the Bible is inspired?

I guess you arent the only one who knows how to ask questions.

David

David,

Good point. So the church compiled the bible.
The church whose authority you don't accept.
The church you don't follow.

Again, your argument is circular:

Dude "Why do you believe the bible is true and not the koran?"
David "Because God promised a Messiah, and Jesus came."
Dude "Where did God promise this?"
David "In the Bible."
Dude "Why do you believe the bible is true and not the koran?"
etc.

Who says I believe the bible is inspired - we agreed I am a muslim remember?

What I am trying to figure out is WHY you believe. If I ask a catholic the same question, he or she will cite the authority of the church that Jesus established. Fine, I understand that even if I don't accept it.

You have not yet identified a reason to believe because, as someone else noted before, a book cannot testify to its own truthfulness.

If I write a book that says "red is blue" and proclaim it to the world, that does not make it true.
If someone asks "why should we believe you" I cannot reasonably reply "because it's in the book."

Dude said "Good point. So the church compiled the bible.
The church whose authority you don't accept.
The church you don't follow."

So think about it. If they didn't write it and just put some stuff together, then how does that show that I recognize their authority. It doesn't. (side note: what year was the Catholic Church established, curiousity question, thanks)

If the church establishes the Bible as the inspired word of God, hurray for them. At least they did something right.

As for you saying that Jesus established the Catholic Church. No. i don't believe he established a church that changed God's commandments. Jesus did not establish a church that took the light off of Him and God, and put it on Mary. etc.

I DO believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Explanation:

1. God planned our redemption even before the bible was made. He promised us that before the Bible was made. Since the Bible agrees with ALL of God's claims, then yes, the Bible would be right.

2. The Bible, then, is not testifying for its own truth. it is stating that, since God gave the facts before it was made, it is correct.

Now then, since we both believe the Bible is true, why does it matter to you what I think. Can't we just debate stuff in the Bible?

Oh well.

David

Dear David:

I am sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I read the entries previous to mine and the tone is getting a little ugly. Our Lord would not us to engage each other this way. Our communications should be in the spirit of charity, an attempt to help each other. I am afraid my own tone in my last entry may have not been perfectly charitable and I will ask for your forgiveness. Please understand that I love our holy mother and I have to admit I get annoyed when she is not given the honor and respect she has merited.

I looked up your question on the changing of the Sabbath in the book “My Catholic Faith.” It says: In the New Law, Christ delegated His authority to the Church, His Living Voice. It remained then for the church to indicate the ceremonial day to be kept holy. The Church of the time of the Apostles observed the first day of the week, Sunday, in honor of the Resurrection and Pentecost, which both took place on a Sunday. In the New Law, Catholics keep holy the first day of the week, Sunday. It is called “The Lord’s Day.” St. Paul refers twice to its observance. (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2).

Oftentimes when Catholics discourse with non-Catholics, it is like comparing apples and oranges because most non-Catholics operate from the theory of “Sola Scriptura,” Bible alone. They must do this in order to deny the authority of the Church. David, you chastised me for trying to make everything logical and (this may have been my impression) insinuated that I prefer logic to the Bible. Please know this is not true. I believe the Bible. All of it. Catholics are taught, and I believe, that you either believe it all or reject it all. There is no middle ground. But if you believe it all, then you have to go back to our Lord founding a Church and giving to it authority (Mt. 16: 18-19).

Now back to the Blessed Virgin Mary: Of course she is better than we are. Human beings are not all equal. Would you say that a serial killer is just as good a person as you or your mother or father or someone else you respect? It just doesn’t make sense. And the angel said “Hail, full of grace,” BEFORE our Lord was conceived in her womb, which means she was already full of grace and thereby the appropriate vessel through which God made man would come into the world.

I would like to address your other arguments but I’m already going a bit long and don’t want to bore anyone. Also, it may be more productive to debate just a few major points than to try to work out the history of faith all at one time.

One last thing. It occurs to me that since this segment of the web site is “Why we do This,” it might be appropriate to let you all know why I am doing this. It is because I care about souls. Every day we go out in the world and see people who have no concept of their own souls. They are doing nothing to help themselves and see nothing wrong with it at all. I kneel at Mass every week and think about those people. I pray and long that someday they will be kneeling also in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, our Lord Himself, so they can have that indescribable experience. (And if it’s that good here, just think how good it is there!) But David, you do have a concept of your own soul and you are actually proactive in trying to do something with it. I, along with a couple of the others on this site, am curious to know WHY you believe what you believe, you know, where you got it from. Our Holy Mother loves you. She is a comfort and Jesus gave her to us through John.

Peace to you, David, and to you other gentlemen.

Becky.

Becky,

No human is better than any other human.

Can a serial killer be forgiven? Yes he or she can. All humans have the capacity to be good, it just depends one what they do with it.

As for your Sabbath issue. In the New Testament, nowhere is Sunday equated with the Sabbath. In fact, there are many instances where the Sabbath is contrasted with the first day. And also, the Apostles did not follow the first day Sabbath, I challenge you to find a verse.

Jesus did not give anyone the authority to change any of God's laws.
If you are not bound by the law, then what make any of the other commandments valid?

The reason he said hail Mary full of grace was BECAUSE she was going to have Jesus. Grace is not sinlessness. if Mary needed a savior, which she did, then how is she sinless?

why don't you put the spotlight on Jesus instead of Mary. She isn't a necessity, but Jesus is!

She isn't the mother of God, she simply gave birth to a HUMAN jesus. The divine Jesus was always here.

God alone is Holy.

IF mary was sinless, why did they leave that out in Romans 3:23? Seems pretty important to the Catholic religion who you say take all of the Bible, not just some of it.

David

Hey, guys.

I was a little tired last night when I was reading your previous entries so I was re-reading them this afternoon. I found David’s October 21 entry particularly interesting. It is true we cannot pinpoint a particular date of the establishment of the Catholic Church in the same way you can protestant religions; 1600’s, 1700’s, 1800’s. Also interesting is that you can trace every protestant religion back to a founder who wanted to do something (a sin) that the Church forbade; Henry VIII, Luther, Calvin, etc. But as for when the Catholic Church was founded, I would again elude to our Lord’s “Peter” conversation but also, do you remember our Lord telling the Jews in the temple that he would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days? (Jn. 2:19) Did not that mean the ending of the old Church (the temple) and the beginning of the new Church three days later (on the Sunday when our Lord resurrected?)

The Old Testament was written, compiled and safeguarded by Jews. Keeping in mind that our Lord and the Apostles were Jews and the New Testament was written, compiled and safeguarded by the Apostles and then the early Church. Now, which Church was that and when did it begin? Henry VIII, Luther and Calvin all began as Catholics. The Bible used by their religions and the religions which trickled down from them began as the Bible written, compiled and safeguarded by the Holy Catholic Church. That is historical fact. Since that time, the Bible has been adulterated (re-translated) by other various and sundry heretics.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Becky

David:

Good to hear from you. I agree with your observation that all humans have the capacity for good or evil and that it depends what they do with it. But I would submit that what they “choose” to do with it is precisely what makes one human being better than another. God has given us all free will. Were we all equal, what need would there be for heaven, hell and purgatory? Unfortunately, there are many who do evil. They choose it, they like it, they are attached to it and they have no desire to let it go. There are others who choose to do evil and while they would like to do good instead, they are afraid for whatever reason to let their old habits go. I would submit again that people are good and evil by varying degrees and that some people are better than others, by choice. Have you ever had a conversation with one of these people? Generally, most of them do not want to hear about God or religion. Serial killers and all other kinds sinners can all be forgiven but they first have to desire to be forgiven and then ask for it. Sadly, many, many of them do not do this. What of them? “Do penance therefore for this thy wickedness; and pray to God, that perhaps this thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee.” (Acts 8:22) And those who are wicked and repent not? Read 2 Peter, Chapter 2. It ends with the proverb, “The dog is retuned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.” Not to mention the “lake of fire” and “the gnashing of teeth.” There are people who go there. There are people who are going there this very minute. Are these people as good as the Blessed Virgin Mary? Dear David, all people are not equal.

As for the Lord’s day being changed to Sunday, if our Lords’ Resurrection and Pentecost are not good enough for you, then I don’t know what else to say. You will note that even the heretics who started the protestant religions did not abandon this practice. Which of them is today observing the Jewish Sabbath? Our Lord’s death on the Cross and Resurrection began the New Covenant. Much of the Old Covenant was changed by Jesus. One example is what Jesus told the Pharisees regarding divorce in Mark, Chapter 10. Prior to Jesus, it was lawful to put away one’s wife. But Jesus told the Pharisees that it was not lawful. Jesus did not give anyone authority to change God’s laws, He, being God, corrected man’s errors Himself, by His instruction.

I implore you to rethink your position on the Blessed Virgin Mary. I do not “put the spotlight” on her and not Jesus. I adore Jesus and worship Jesus, my God. I honor our Holy Mother, as I am commanded, by God, to honor my own mother (part of the Old Covenant that was not changed.) Luke Chapter 1 clearly refers to her as “the virgin.” Why was it necessary for God made Man to come into the world through a virgin? Because she had to be pure and free from sin. God chose her but He also wanted her to give her consent, which she did. For you to say that the Blessed Virgin Mary sinned is frighteningly close to “dissing” Jesus’ mother. In addition to it being false, you just don’t do it. For the life of me I can’t understand why people don’t get that and attack her so viciously. How on earth can you accuse someone of a sin you have absolutely no knowledge of? Is that also not a Commandment? The writers in the Bible had no qualms of writing of people’s sins. If the Blessed Virgin committed a sin, do you not think it would have been at least noteworthy? But it's not there.

As for her giving birth to just the “HUMAN” Jesus, how in the world do you separate God made Man? Jesus was God humbling Himself by incarnating Himself and taking on human form. He was no less God than He was before or after. How could she just give birth to the human part? Jesus was God made Man, one and the same, whole and entire.

As for Romans 3:23, is it so hard to believe that God would have specially protected our Lady from original sin (Immaculate Conception) so that she would be a worthy vessel for Him to come into the world? He, in His infinite and total wisdom, knew she was to be His mother before she came to be. And of what sin would you accuse our Lord’s mother?

Please, David, soften your heart towards her.

Becky.

Becky,

Sorry if I make it seem like I am disrespecting Mary. I don't mean to do that. I'm just saying that she isn't sinless.

Also, there are a few protestant religions that still follow the true sabbath.

Sorry, this is a short reponse, I'll go into more details if you want.

David

I'm not sure where in the Bible it calls Mary Holy either. Actually, it doesn't.

In the Bible, there is almost no emphasis on her either. (this is going to raise discussion hopefully)

David

I have a question. Why don't vegetarians drink milk? It's off topic, but I was wondering. I heard it was because it came from cows which are meat, but then does that make breast feeding bad?

David

I am concerned why a pope ordered the murder of giralamo savanarola. Would Jesus order the death of anyone?

Edwin,
Not sure what you've read that suggested this, but read the Encyclopedia Britannica article on his death. The Pope actually absolved him before his death.

God bless,
Jay

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of god." Romans 3:23 either mary was a sinner or god is a liar.

Bob,
Wow, thanks for clarifying this whole discussion [dripping with sarcasm here]. Bob, I think that you need to either make an argument as to why you believe that God could not protect his own creation [Mary] from sin or not comment at all. Throwing out blank statements are not an effective attempt at apologetics. Ask questions, state your case, and move on. At this point you merely presume to completely know the mind and latitude of God. Now that would be impressive if it were possible.
Peace,
Matthew

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 either Jesus was a sinner or God is a liar.

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