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As far as philosopher's go, I much prefer Nietzsche. And as he would say, "God is dead."

You should read Nietzsche, if nothing else just to know what the opposition has to say to your belief that you hold some unassailable "proof".

I recommend picking up a copy of "Beyond Good and Evil" and paying particular attention to his thoughts on -slave morality-.

I was once a Catholic too; I did not give it up because of any desire to "sin". And before you start making judgment calls, I was a *good* Catholic, exceptionally devout and certainly far better behaved than any of my peers. While they were busy indulging in drugs, sex, and other debauchery I was the one meditating and considering the priesthood as a vocation.

Being an atheist (or agnostic) has nothing to do with looking for justification for what you refer to as "sin".

I woke up one day and realized that I was weary of being a slave.

Non servium.

Witch-king,
Interesting post. I've actually read Nietzsche, but his abject insanity gets in the way of my enjoyment of the text.

One question: how did you feel that you were a slave? What do you, as a "free" person, do now that you could not do then?

I would contend that God's laws, far from being enslaving, are designed for our happiness - only that which enslaves is verboten. True freedom is freedom from sin.

God bless,
Jay

Slavery means that we have something forced upon us. In Scripture when there are references to the "slavery of sin" it is referring to that "original sin" that was unavoidable, but through making a choice to follow Christ we are freed from this slavery. Slavery also involves being forced to do something that you do not want to do. So when any atheist says that Christians are slaves I find it ironic, for as a Catholic, I chose to follow Christ, I desire to live the virtues, I understand what sin is and do my best not to partake in those things. Therefore this cannot be called slavery. The desire to do the good is in no way a form of slavery.

Like Jay, I too have a hard time with Nietzsche. For a man that was so free as to say that "God is dead", I find it almost comical how confused the man appears, even in his own writing. He makes a fundamental mistake in his whole theory on master morality vs. slave morality in that he reduces it to a strictly "human" level. Something, of course, that an atheist would do. He goes on to say that Christians are bigots yet Nietzsche, in naming Christians such and in his constant depising of Christians, makes himself just that...a bigot. And a relentless bigot at that. I find the following comment particularly interesting:

This was the most fatal form of insanity that has ever yet existed on earth: -- when these little lying abortions of bigotry begin laying claim to the words, "God," "last judgement," "truth," "love," "wisdom," "Holy Spirit," and thereby distinguishing themselves from the rest of the world; when such men begin to transvalue values to suit themselves, as though they were all the sense, the salt, the standard, and the measure of all things; then that one should this: build lunatic asylums for their incarceration. To persecute them was an egregious act of antique folly: this was taking them too seriously; it was making them serious...
- Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil

I think two things should particularly jump out at us in this statement:
1) That Nietzsche's ultimate concern with the persecution of Christians isn't the "freedom or freed morality" of the those persecuted, but rather that in persecuting them it made them "serious". A fellow atheist, writing earlier under a different article, attempted to argue that there are certain values that are common to society that have nothing to do with God, such as that murder is wrong. Yet Nietzsche doesn't seem to think so, in fact he would like to take it a step further by suggesting that "lunatic asylums" might be appropriate places for "their incarceration".

2) He also makes the claim that "the laying claim" to such words as "God," "last judgement," etc. is the most fatal form of insanity, because it attempts to distinguish Christians from the rest of the world. Yet he does exactly the same thing in distinguishing between himself and Christians. He likewise attempts to lay claim to these words but only for the purpose of disproving them, which he does badly I might add.

Please don't forget Nietzsche's famous deathbed words, "I am God." They clearly demonstrate that in his inability to completely obliterate the belief in God that he found it necessary to claim the title for himself. Ironically, he died immediately after making the claim, hardly a convincing proof.

My questions to you would be these:
1) How does not believing in God promote value(s)?
2) How does atheism make up for the void that is left by the elimination of virtues?

Now I have a couple of books I would like to recommend that you read:

Anselm's The Ontological Argument
Thomas Aquinas' The Five Ways and the Doctrine of Analogy
Blaise Pascal's The Wager

In Christ,
Joe

You know, I have yet to see an arguement that is logically sound that backs the existance of god. All the arguements that I've ever ran across are all fallacy-filled nonsense. Maybe if someone could try to prove to me god exists I'll take that back. The burden of proof is always on the person who believes the unlogical...

Don,

Exactly what is illogical about the belief in God? Where did you or I come from? Where did all the stuff that you and I are made from come from? The theory that the universe has always been in existence has been completely discredited by the scientific evidence that surrounds us. Scientist believe that the present universe came into being at a point in time (whether you call that point the big bang and stretch it out billions of years ago or not is beside the point), and that it is expanding outward at greater and greater speed, and everything in it will eventually die out. Thus by logical standards of reasoning there must be an uncaused cause. In other words there must be something that caused all of this to come into being, as the universe was not always here. It is illogical to believe otherwise.

Look at the complexity of the universe, as well as the laws of physics we are only just now being able to understand, all of it miraculously supports life.

How about the fact that the earth is just the right size, just the right distance from a sun which is just the right size, is tilted at just the right angle, has just the right atmosphere and is composed of just the right materials, with just the right size and positioned moon, with just the right magnetic charge . . . If any one of these factors were changed even by a factor of 1%, life would not exist on earth. You might say that yes but the universe is huge . . . such a planet might have come about by shear accident. I would respond by saying that based upon the mathematical statistics it is still virtually impossible that such a planet would happen by chance.

Even if you can get beyond the problem of earth itself you next have the problem of life itself. Scientists have a pretty good idea of how old the universe is and how large it is. If you take each atom in the universe and multiply it by the number of seconds in the oldest estimate of the age of the universe you would come up with a huge number. This represents the possible chemical reactions that could potentially occur to form life not just on earth, but in the entire universe. Then you take the number of chemical reactions that it would take to randomly put together a single strand of DNA of the most simple life form, this number is so much bigger than the previous number that even with calculating in the above seemingly huge number, the odds of forming that life form is once again mathematically impossible.

I won’t even go into the whole argument about where your very ability to think logically (or illogically as you have chosen to do) and to reason comes from, if not from God . . .

As a wise man once said, “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” Another wise man said, “A fool says in his heart there is no God.”

It takes much more faith to not believe in God than the other way around, and the more we learn, the more and more it will be difficult for the atheist to bury his head in the sand.

In Christ,

Thomas

My confirmation name has always suited me. St. Dominic was always rigourous, always asked the right questions, and tracked down madness within the wider comnunity. He was the brains behind the Inquistion whose role in presrving unity and diversity in the Catholic world at that time is well known.

Until the recent statements about life and death from the US and Vatican hierachy, I considered myself bound by the inspiration of Jesus and Thomas the disciple (plus T.Aquinas and D.Guzman)

If your organisation could advise me on the procedure for officially de-baptizing, de-communionizng,and de-confirming me, I would be very grateful.

Dr Thomas (Dominic) Lyne

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