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Well, I understand it is a historical fact that Hitler once attended the Oberammergau Passion Play and praised it because (he thought) it showed those wicked Jews as the villains they are... Which in itself proves nothing, of course. How many New York Times religion columnists would boycott Wagner at the opera?

Yea but just because Hitler thought that play was anti-semetic doesn't mean that it was. And if it was that would have nothing to do with "Passion" because (although both are based on the same story) they are different works, by different artists ect.

Yea but just because Hitler thought that play was anti-semetic doesn't mean that it was. And if it was that would have nothing to do with "Passion" because (although both are based on the same story) they are different works, by different artists ect.

Here's what I always ask people who seem to have a bone to pick with Jesus, Christians, and Christianity:
If they seem to be speaking out of ignorance, then I say, "Have you read the bible?" If they say yes, I say, "You obviously haven't read very much, because the things you say don't line up with scripture at all", and then I give them examples of what I mean. Besides, when someone says they've read the bible, you can tell whether they really have or haven't by the things they say.
If they say they haven't read the bible, then I say, "Well, then in my opinion, you have no authority to comment on the bible and tell people what's what because you haven't even read it yourself. You can't give a book report on a book you haven't read." That usually confounds people. They don't have much to say after that. Example: Try giving a book report in school on a book you haven't read. Better yet, try arguing with your mechanic when you take it to the repair shop when you don't know what's wrong with it. If someone doesn't know how to work on an automobile, they're obviously not going to be able to argue troubleshooting points with a mechanic who can build the engine from the ground up. Pretty basic and straight forward, don't you think? It's no different with the bible. Those who haven't read it have no basis for their arguement because speak out of complete ignorance. I really doubt that Diane Sawyer has read much of the bible. I'm sure she researched Jesus and Christians everywhere else but the bible, which would be foolish... in my opinion.
-Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior because he died for me on the cross and was raised from the dead on the third day and is seated in heaven at the right hand of God and I have remission of sins because I believe on him and have asked him to come into my heart and have admitted that I'm a sinner and have asked his forgiveness. That's where I stand in case anyone out there feels they need to know. By the way, I'm Christian, not Catholic. -Brandon

The interview just really shows how polarized our society has become with regards to Christianity. There is comming a time when there will be no fence sitting or gray zone. We will have to make a choice on where we stand with God.

The Jews are in the limelight because they are
God's chosen people. Had God chosen Africans,
Native Americans, Italians,etc. as His people,
that's who would be in the movie. But, it
doesn't matter, God chose this way of salvation
before the foundation of the world BECAUSE of
the wickedness of all mankind. We all are guilty
of His death, because we all have sinned and
come short of the glory of God. Mel Gibson
doesn't believe anyone outside of the Catholic
church is going to heaven.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4224452
I'm with Brandon...I'm a Christian, not Catholic.
Something else to think about:
When you hear of all demonic possesion, exorcisms, stigmata...where does it originate?
Catholics.

Any thoughts as to why it was a devout Catholic Christian who made this film rather than a devout Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist or other Protestant Christian?

Whoa, whoa....

Brandon and Annie...
Please realize that Catholicism IS Christian, in fact it is the ORIGINAL Christianity, all protestant denominations fell away from it.

Annie...
I took a look at your reference to Gibson's views about non-Catholics not making it to heaven...
Firstly, this appears not to be the most reliable source for this information.

Secondly, if you take a look at the quote from the article, "..she’s better than I am. But that is a pronouncement from the chair. I go with it..." the 'chair' that Mr. Gibson is referring to is obviously the 'papal chair'. However, if you look into it, you will find that that is not what the Church teaches. So either Mel Gibson himself is mistaken, or the article is less than reliable. Either way, the article does not testify to the Truth about what the Catholic church teaches on the subject.

I would urge you to more fully look into what the Catholic Church is all about before you make your conclusions about it. I assure you, if you read and learn about it with an open mind and an open heart, you will be AMAZED at what you find!

God bless,
Nickie.

Brandon, et al,
devout Catholics -are- born again Christians, unless they've been horribly mis-catechized.

There is no question in my mind that Mel Gibson and Mr. Caviezel (sp?) are regenerate Christians. They 'get it' a lot more than too many Evangelicals do who merely have an existential experience and have never heard the Cross preached.

Think about it this way: if Catholics aren't Christians, there were no Christians for almost 1,500 years after Christ!

God bless,
Jay

I though Mel looked like a cat on a hot tin roof and came off looking rather silly at times. It seemed to me that Mel The Actor was trying to get Mel The Director out of a bind. When Diane Sawyer pressed hard, Gibson reverted to Robin Williams type comedy schtick; especially the part where he raised the wine glass to his face and pretended to cry into it when discussing his past transgressions.
All in all I thought it was a very strange interview. A hard nosed female journalist versus a famous actor turned religous zealot. With all the talk of conspiracies and infighting with the Catholic Church, I thought Gibson came across at times as being parnoid. He seemed very stressed out and nervous.

That said, I do commend Mr. Gibson for the strength of his convictions. He put his money where his faith is and he's willing to risk his acting career to get his point across. A+ for conviction. D+ for the way he handled himself during the interview.
TDJ

TDJ - he always looks like that in interviews. I agree, it's odd . . . almost like he's nervous.

I think about it this way. Imagine you were surrounded by all of your best friends. Imagine that all of you are card toting members of the atheist, God-hating, sex loving, wacked out pinko club. Then imagine that God touches your heart and you are now 180% going in the opposite direction of your so-called friends. Can you imagine? Think about sharing your faith publicly in a bar, or some other "cool" social scene. This probably begins to describe the cognitive dissonance that Gibson is experiencing. When my wife and saw the interview (and his previous ones with Raymond Arroyo) I was initially thinking that he could have done a much better job standing for the faith. But then I thought of where he comes from. And I thought about Peter's thrice denial...

Gibson is doing pretty alright in my view. I hope that God will continue to bless and strengthen him with the power of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,
Dave

It is not unusual for actors to be shy on a personal level.

Very good analogy about being in a bar full of freaks and trying to get the Good Word out in a hostile environment. Maybe Mel thought he could charm Diane Sawyer. I guess time will tell how this all pans out. With all the hype surroounding the film I think it's a safe bet that Mel will make his 30 million back. Word is that advance tickets sales are strong. Controversy sells.

Mel Gibson seemed mentally disturbed during his interview. I will not participate in lining his pockets, and therefore will not see this film. Ask yourself how the good Christians would have received him while he was boozing and drugging. It is only now that he has given the bible bangers another sales tool that he is praised. They would have completely shunned him during his dark days. You can bet on that.

What is your point Susan? Mel Gibson has been praised for years. How about the fact that he is one of the biggest names in hollywood and has been married to the same woman for 20 something years and is the father of 7 children. Perhaps we could all step back and take a look at what the Passion was all about....FORGIVENESS! Who are you to place a judgement on someone who has done so much to promote christianity and Life to a society of death! Who is any of us to place judgement on anyone of our brothers and sisters. By the way, Gibson spent his own money creating the film, the chances of pockets getting lined are slim to none. The man has put his career and livlihood on the line, what have you done to Promote Gods Kingdom!?!

This movie is just another attempt to try and convince people to believe in a mediocre, work of fiction - The Bible. I have read the Bible and find it not only boring, but completely inaccurate and irrelevant today. In 200 years the Bible will be looked at much the same way we view Greek religion. It's preposterous. Keep holding your breath for salvation people.

My husband and I thought Mel Gibson came across very well in the Diane Sawyer interview. She came across as being not too intelligent where Christianity is concerned. I cannot understand anyone thinking the Bible is boring. It is all about real life. If one reads it and asks God to help him understand it (that is, if one believes in God), he will get the understanding he needs. Much prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled and there is much to be fulfilled. I pray the Passion of the Christ will cause many to come to Him as Lord and Savior.

Seems like David is trying to get a rise out of people--but he nonetheless raises a very interesting problem of (and I apologize for this word) stupidity among certain people. I guess that perhaps it is simply lack of education, but not likely. Let's review the facts:

1. The Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) were written approximately 3500 years ago.

2. Three distinct major religions all use the Pentateuch as the starting point of their text (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism).

3. Roughly 55% of the world's current population spread over the entirety of the earth's surface ascribes to one of the religions just mentioned above in one form or another, yet all three religions originated in the exact same place: the Middle East.

4. The other major world religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, etc.) claim only 25% of the world's population, and are extremely concentrated in the far east.

In short, the belief in Yaweh (which means "I am" and is referred to in other placeds as Jehovah, Allah, or God) has existed for the entirety of human existence. In other words, thousands of years before the Greek gods were thought up, and now worshipped for thousands of years after they died. Guess what? Our God can beat up their gods! And He's not going anywhere anytime soon.

In Christ,
Dave

Here is a Christian movie - and all the "Christian's" can do - is fight among each other. We are no better than the crowd who did not stand up for the Christ. We should all stand together and encourage as many people to see this movie as we can - I hope Hollywood makes a movie a week on the Bible. But it will only do so - if we all support these movies!!!!!

Way to go Mel, Dave, Patrick, and all you positive brothers and sisters out there! I agree with Ann--let's get together and support one another. This will have a polarizing effect--"the sheep will be separated from the goats". Who knew God would use a motion picture to fulfill this much prophecy about our future? The times we live in call for a stand, but it must be a stand together for Jesus.

The incredible love our Savior showed in this sacrifice must be our living motivator especially with those who don't understand why He did what He did. He died to unite us with the Father and our family all over the world. This heated discussion is a sad commentary on how we just don't "get it" sometimes. He suffered violence so that we could have and enjoy peace.

I hate to be the bearer of discomforting news, but I when I woke up this morning to my alarm, the radio was set to some secular music station. I heard the DJ's talking about seeing the "Passion" (one of them had sneaked in!). They were neither repulsed and angry, nor sorrowful and repentant. Instead, they remarked about what a great commentary the film was on intolerance and how it will teach us to be more accepting of homosexuals. I didn't think this type of response was even possible to a film like this-marginalization that is-but there you go. Very sad. How do we respond to this?

In Christ,
Dave

I don't know how you could get in touch with the people who heard those people speak but its obvious what Christian position on that issue is. When asked why Jesus sat with sinners he used the analogy of how doctors healed those who were sick and not those who were healthy. We do not need to cast out or pick on homosexuals just as Jesus didnt cast out the tax collectors and prostitutes but instead need to treat them as human while trying to get them to realize the sins the commit, repent, and lead the life God wants us to.

You're all nuts.

Tom,

You are of course right on the money with respect to the theologically correct answer. However, I wonder how we can most effectively counteract this marginalization. This is a much more insidious tool for leading people astray, because it only takes the edge off of the film rather than trying to ignore it or reject it.

Perhaps the way to respond is by commenting on discrimination. First, Jesus was the ultimate affirmative action provider. He affirmatively went to the cross to give all of humanity the opportunity they would not have otherwise had, sinner and saint alike. Second, Jesus did not die a death of "discrimination", but one of volition. Third, far from discriminating against sinners, Jesus died to free them from their sins. Finally, any response less than an abandonment of the sin that He freed us from would be to spit in the face of the gift beyond comprehension that He gave.

In Christ,
Dave

Dear "Believers",

Your living in a story, made by men like other cultures’ stories. You went mainstream, being taken in you knew no better and neither would have I. Men brighter then us who use a larger percent of their brain persuaded many to do “good”. Like a modern day cult people fall to charismatic figures: Bill Clinton, Jim Jones, Adolph Hitler. You choose the more famous Jesus Christ. The white man’s religion. Did you ever consider the four wombs of the Zuni or was Adam and Eve’s tale a little more believable. Faith in any book can reach enlightenment, mine for instance is The Outlaw Bible of American Poetry. Why not the Analects of Confucius, Bhagavad-Gita, Book of Mormon, Hagyadah, the famous hymns of the Rig Veda, I Ching, The Koran, Deli Canon, Tao Te Ching or The Upanishads? Has each book been analyzed back and forth; read twice for certainty. Any great scholar would have course read each text of an authors to be able to choose the best. Shouldn’t that apply in finding a religion? Max Muller once said that, “Someone who knows only one religion knows none.” Feuerbach concludes it’s basic human needs to conger up an Idea of God. Marx’s would say it’s the opium for the masses. Some people choose hallucinogens, others use forms of escape through reading, sports, acting, building, some use technology as their interest, others religion. Many say religion is for the weak or used to suppress the underclass and it is and it does.
What ever religion you follow be it polytheistic, it may have ten commandments, Four Noble Truths, a Yin and a Yang, The Tao, Dogma or seven pillars; you may believe in the Buddha, Jesus Christ, Jehovah, Brahmin, Allah, Al-Kabeer, I am, Zeus, Styx or god; you could go to confession, practice Zen, shave your head, grow a beard, not eat meat, smoke weed, listen to music or yoga for all I care. . .
But, please don’t tell me you KNOW or your way is the RIGHT way. I don’t care who your god is or what religion you follow. My eyes are open and I can hear you load and clear. . . Playing it back and forth in my mind and

hear is a little

secret

You all sound the same.

ã Casey Degnan

Listen, genius ('Satan' guy),
STOP USING THE OBSCENE LANGUAGE. This isn't a porn site - if you can't make you point without obscenities, you probably aren't intelligent enough to argue it anyway. I deleted your last post, since it's only purpose was showing how obscene you could be.

Now, to your issue. Christianity is quite different from the 'invented' religions we know of. Christianity is not the type of religion one invents. Why? First, our God is all-holy and demand this from us. He has laid out the law and requires us to follow it. Combine that with the fact that our God is omniscient and omnipotent, which means he is everywhere and all-powerful. As a Christian we can't even think sinful thoughts without being judged for it.

Mythical religions never involve omniscient and all-holy gods. The only religions that can compare in any way to Christianity are Judaism and Islam since they worship the same God as Christians do (the real God). However, we as Christians believe they only have a partial understanding of the nature and reality of that God for differing reasons.

Ultimately you are making a bet - Pascals wager - that you are right. If I'm right, you're in trouble. If you're right, it doesn't matter: you and I are but unexplained consequences of the universe, a quirk of science. Of course, if you study the odds you'll quickly realize the impossibility of that situation. Philosophically speaking, there has to be an unmoved mover who started the universe. Even the big bang theory presupposes a "Maker" who started the big bang. You need to decide which god you believe in and why, since Pascal's wager is a fool's game.

God bless,
Jay

PS - NO MORE OBSCENITIES

Well JAY,

Thank you for the genius complement but your jumping way ahead of yourself. Please don’t be so hasty, let me earn the title.
Okay my friend, first off here are some of the greats who used “sexual” references or “profanity/obscenities”
Mark Twain
Nathaniel Hawthorne
Harriet Beecher Stowe
John Steinbeck
Aldous Huxley
D.H. Lawrence
Voltaire
All who in your definition “aren't intelligent” since they “can't make your point without obscenities”.
Not that I rank amongst the greats but I am in no position to call these masters of language unintelligent and well in my opinion neither are you my friend. Slip of finger, I understand I won’t be the first to cast the stone.

Moving on.

Christianity is quiet different from other religions. Now were starting to get a little ridiculous
but I’ll wage onward.
I’ve come to the conclusion your Catholic. Yes?
You know what (try to imagine sarcasm here) your right no other religions say that
“our God is all-holy and demand this from us. (that) He has laid out the law and requires us to follow it. Combine that with the fact that our God is omniscient and omnipotent, which means he is everywhere and all-powerful.” Your absolutely right that you’re the only religion who thinks this way.
No dispute needed here on this one hopefully.

Now, the common “If your right and I’m wrong saying.” It’s cute how easily you can toss damnation around for other people like that, really JAY I don’t appreciate the inconsiderateness. The only problem is if your right
then I as well as many others
wouldn’t want your Heaven
definitely not one who cases others into HELL. Let me be the last and I quote “To boast my brothers into your heaven whatever the measure.” A heaven with a select few is no heaven for me, I’m inviting everyone to my party.
Shouldn’t you?

I was going to go into the history subject with you just mentioning the Papal Corruption, or when the Pope gave the Albigensian Crusaders a special indulgence (or any indulgences for that matter) guaranteeing heaven if death in battle, I didn’t want to touch The Inquisition, or the Crusades or how I thought that it was funny that after confession your asked to repeated prayers for instance with ten "Hail Marys" for every “Our Father” "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do; for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" (Matthew 6:7). (I’d still be a heathen to Christians if I was a Catholic isn’t that a hoot) or how the Virgin Mary was not a perpetual virgin due to the whole James being Jesus’ sibling or how the Catholic religion took Pagan holidays and made them a Christian version (clever) or how the through laws of physics clearly say it’s impossible to be man, God and Holy Spirit but you’re the one claiming I’m stating foolish testaments. Interestingly enough I was chatting with a Jehovah’s Witness (Christian) who said the thing that really bother him (to the core) the most about Catholics was “how they say they come in representation of God”
and he said he was angrily saddened by all the lies. Ironic how Christian’s passionately are in direct conflict with each other, isn’t it Jay. Look at Ireland. There you can see your war in families, by color of t-shirts, in car bombings and the eye’s of many; a ongoing Christian War. But all of that is your battle not mine. I don’t want the battle. Catholics and sects of Christian’s, Jews and Palestinians, all the Holy Wars, you can have it all Jay. I don’t want any part.

Remember this Jay, I never said I had all the answers, or perhaps none at all,
or I never said anyone will go to Hell on any circumstances, or questioned the intelligence of others.

But I feel I’m starting too. Plus this negative vibe from this communication is unhealthy and disheartening.
I hope all is well with you.

Oh P.S. I also never said I was an atheist, that was an assumption
and you know the cliché about the word “assume” right.
Lighten up Jay
In some way we’re alike, scary yeah.
Well this has been fun but I’m not much of a internet guy.
Peace.

"Satan",

Inviting everyone to the party, are we? Thieves? Murderers? Rapists? Child molesters? Adolph Hilter? Well, Hell is indeed the place for you my friend, where you will be robbed, murdered (in an endless series of deaths), raped, molested, etc. by all of your party-going friends. Wish granted. How's that for "inclusiveness". Pathetic.

Yes, God is perfect. The only people invited to His party are perfect. The only perfect people are those covered in Christ's blood. The only way to be covered by His blood is to participate in His suffering. A little suffering now? Yes. But the only other alternative is your Hellraiser sicko fest, and that for an eternity... Thanks, but no thanks.

In Christ,
Dave

P.S. I'm sure you think you're pretty funny. So did Goliath. Watch out for little stones my friend.

Jay, Dave, and Casey,

Greetings in The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We must be very careful not to become self-rightous in this matter. I don't think you are satan. Satan is a spirit with which my battle is with. It's not against flesh and blood such as yourself. Jay, Dave, we must hate the sin, not the sinner. Instead show love to them considering we were the same way. This is God's will. Casey, I'm praying for you so that your eyes will truly, "be open" to what the living God has for you. I'm glad that you are so well educated in other religions and great authors. We can spend a lifetime arguing over who is right and who is wrong using our limmited human evidence, but what it all comes down to is God's love for us. I know many people like you Casey who have come to know Jesus because they truly sought the living God. I urge you to do the same. Your life will become abundant with blessing. Ask and you shall recieve. Knock and the door will be opened. But you must really give it a shot. You see, Jesus is the only means to Heaven. There is no other way. Christianity is the only way of life that teaches that. The only one with enough conviction to make that claim. Glory to God, He made sure that we wouldn't find Him through science or philosophy. He has made it all like straw in comparison to The Truth about Jesus. Instead he uses we flawed human beings to carry His message of Salvation to the world. You see Casey, if you were the only person who ever needed to reconciled to God, The Christ would have come to die for you alone. God loves you that much. I'm not perfect, nor is the Pope, or those that have gone before him. But It is the message that is perfect not the messenger. There was only ever one of them and that was Jesus, who offers heaven to all who will accept him and His promise. God Bless all of you.

True Peace, Josh

Dave,

I can't decide who is a bigger ass. You or Jay.

Casey, you are right on the money.

The only "truth" is that none of us were there, and my belief is as good as yours, or anyone else's. That is why it is called faith.

Susan

Susan,

Just to recap, thus far on this article alone, you have referred to people as "bible-bangers", "nuts", "mentally disturbed", and "ass". You are obviously hurting, and for that I am sorry. Whether you believe in God or not, He does believe in you and desires only your love and obedience.

In Christ,
Dave

Dave,
If the shoe fits.
Susan

Dave,
If the shoe fits...........
Susan

Its hard to have such a heated discussion like this over the internet, a huge part of human understanding is tone of voice, facial expression etc. I say all of this with no sarcasm,only in a tone of patience and understanding.
First, I would like to remind all of you that it is neither my nor your responsibility to cast judgement. To decide who is welcomed into Heaven is for God Alone to decide. Through out this discussion I've heard talk about science and other religions...understand that science(in its entirity) is based on far more outlandish theorys than any religion. All scientific evidence, even that of the most athiest scientist points us to a creator. Evolution does not rule out God, nor does the Big Bang. As far as other religions go, well the grass is always greener... I have a feeling some of our more disgruntled writers are probably ex catholics, who for some reason fell away....The Catholic church is a divine orginization run by humans, its bound to be flawed...quite a paradox! If Catholics are so false, can someone explain Fatima,Medjugorje, etc.?? How come people who have near death experiences often revert to Catholicism, see Jesus...if Buddha is there...why doesnt he show up every once in a while? Why isnt the Baghavad-Gita the best seller year after year...perhaps its because it is not the Truth. Where are we ever told in Scripture the Mary gave birth to James? If we believe that Mary gave birth to Jesus with the aid of the Holy Spirit, how could any man compare. The fact that Joseph probably died before Jesus leads me to believe that she was indeed Mary, Ever Virgin, Mother of The Christ, the God-Man. You see we deal with a generation of people who are so afraid to obey anything but their appetite. You may believe in nirvana, reincarnation...whatever you want...we can discuss that in heaven! I'd be interested to know if this "satan to believers" person...if you believe in Satan you must believe in God, the Christian God, cause there is no "satan" in Islam nor does evil go by that name in any other religion...except perhaps Judaism.
Christ came and died 2,000 years ago, within weeks of his life death and ressurection there are documents of the celebration of Eucharist. "if You do not Eat My Body, and Drink My Blood, You will have NO life in You". Was your faith started by a reformist or Christ himself, I understand the church is not perfect, but for 2000 years the white line of the popes has not fallen or faultered, the Lord Blesses those Who Love Him. Peace to You all, May God Bless you Abundantly in the Lenten Season

Many people do say Buddha, Brahman, Allah have shown themselves to many others
in visions after death
even in different ways to Buddhist, Muslims
or to people in nations where the overwhelming belief is Buddhism or Islam
or other gods are seen during death experiences for other religions for that matter.

Through being a product of environment is the answer to your question.
Americans probably would see Jesus
because he is the christian savior of the most popular religion in America.
People try to latch onto anything during death, a savior probably is the most common because they’re dying. It goes along with the saying
“There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole.”

Well, the Bible is actually the best seller because it’s the leading religion’s text
although in a few years Islam will become the prevalent religion due to Christians use of contraceptives and the average family size deceasing while the Muslims family size could double the family size of Christians
but more importantly we all know how Christianity got to the top
and humanity (brutality) played a large part but I’m not one to condemn
it’s just history right.

By the way my appetite has nothing to do with your unwillingness to open up to other possibilities
or to admit you can never truly know unless
you claim faith
which is the same faith many christian used for the theory
of stars being gate ways into heaven
similar to the world being flat theory
although it was the most prominent belief
doesn’t mean it was right.
Understanding what I’m getting at?

I didn’t say I believed in Satan anymore than I believe in Santa Claus. I thought Christians would consider an outsider, a heathen in their eyes Satan which seemed to come to fruition by Dave.
anyone one who thinks outside the box , radical or revolutionarily has been proven over history to be a devil or a witch in some circumstances and either killed or renounce their beliefs for another view of the sunset.
I’ve said time and time again I don’t have all the answers but at least I have the moxy to admit it.

Life and death are paradoxical with many intricate, difficult, unfounded theoretical parts unknowns to mankind (as of now).
You’ve chose your answer
fine.
I’m glad your happy. I possess no spite.
Please try not to understand where my ideology came from, terming it faith.

And the popes have not faltered?
Okay.
I’m done.
no more please.
Your not going to understand where I’m coming from because you can’t.
I know this like a man on top of a building looking down on two cars on each corner driving at a 90 degree angle with no traffic lights. They will crash yet all the bystanders never saw it coming, thought one was more at fault then the other.

I’m not claiming wiser understanding but possibly just a more unbiased one.

Hello Casey;

Thank you for your posts... what is a site like this for but to debate and discuss.

I would like to point out a couple of things... things that I, as a person who has been raised Catholic, am only just starting to understand.

The main thing I want to point out is that the teachings Catholic Church are based on REASON. It is because of this that Christianity, and particularly Catholicism, has stuck around for so long, despite the obvious unfortunate errors of many (I guess all) of its members. Jesus founded a Church that was so deeply philosophical, so intensely logical, that even today, 2000 years after He walked this earth, we are STILL learning about what His message meant.

For thousands of years, philosophers, theologians, and thinkers of INCREDIBLE insight and intelligence have pondered what the Bible and Church history have had to say, and have been stumped and astounded by it's depth. Many of these people would be able to argue emphatically with the greatest thinkers of our time, about things and ideas you or I wouldn't even have the first clue to think about. And yet throughout all this debate and thought (people are curious, and ask lots of questions!)the philosophy and logic and reason of the Church has stood.

I would urge you, if it interests you, to learn more about the immense (and I mean IMMENSE!) intellectual history of the Church. Perhaps read about those who knew Jesus directly, and what they had to say about Him. I have found that a good place to start, and I have been OVERWHELMED by what is out there.

I guess my point is that Catholicism is not some fanciful set of strange ideas that a bunch of crazy people put together...instead it is a philosophy of such depth, beyond what you or I could imagine (some people spend their entire lives studying the theology of the Church, and still don't know it all!). There is no question or uncertainty that you have about God, the Church, people, faith, other religions, etc, etc, etc, etc, that has not already been asked by someone before you who has used REASON and LOGIC to come up with the answers.

Take a look...it's fascinating!
I wish you well!
Nickie.

Hello everyone,

I think Nickie makes a great point. The Church has an immense intellectual history. It is well worth exploring from an unbiased point of view. It's quite difficult to do, but is the only way to truly open yourself up to new information. However, we must not put all our stock in it. As a catholic, some might dissagree with me, but I believe Thomas Aquinas to be one of the most brilliant people in history who truly sought God. He was given much insight into defining parts of the mysterys of the Church using reason and Logic; all gifts from God. Things that we still follow today. There was even a time where the only theology the Church tought was Aquinas. Even with all of his discoveries and insight, he discarded it all as straw when confronted by Christ. He knew then that the Glory and Love of God left it all in the dust. It was all that really mattered in the end. St. Paul knew this centuries before Aquinas when he wrote in his first letter to the Corinthians in approx. A.D. 55. Chapter 1:18-21 reads: "I know very well how foolish the message of the cross sounds to those who are on the road to destruction. But we who are being saved recognize this message as the very power of God. As the scriptures say,
'I will destroy human wisdom and discard their most brilliant ideas.'
So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world's most brilliant debaters? God has made them all look foolish and has shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense. Since God in His wisdom saw to it that the world would never find Him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save all who believe."
Check out the begining of chapter two of the same book. It is also insightful. Praise God!

in True Peace, Josh

if your reading thruogh this and thinking where do you poeple come up with this stuff, that this is just a bunch of hog wash, think long and hard about your decission not to except God, Christianity and the Bible. IF you die tonight where will you go? how do you know you will get there? If you have no idea i suggest opening a bible and getting to know God for the kind commpassinate loving being He is. God is not some mean, stern man sitting in heaven waiting for us to mess up so he can put another strike by our name. yes when we mess up he is saddend by our sin, but all we have to do is believe that because of his son Jesus Christ our sins can be taken away, and ask for His Forgivness. Jesus really loves you, no matter how bad you mess up, how mean or disrespectful you are, no matter how long it took you to realize he is the answer you've been searching for, He will always love and have a place for you in Heaven if you accept Jesus into your heart! Then you will experience the greatest joy you will ever have. one more thing once a christian always a christian, there is nothing you can possibly do to not be able to enter the kingdom of God!

if your reading thruogh this and thinking where do you poeple come up with this stuff, that this is just a bunch of hog wash, think long and hard about your decission not to except God, Christianity and the Bible. IF you die tonight where will you go? how do you know you will get there? If you have no idea i suggest opening a bible and getting to know God for the kind commpassinate loving being He is. God is not some mean, stern man sitting in heaven waiting for us to mess up so he can put another strike by our name. yes when we mess up he is saddend by our sin, but all we have to do is believe that because of his son Jesus Christ our sins can be taken away, and ask for His Forgivness. Jesus really loves you, no matter how bad you mess up, how mean or disrespectful you are, no matter how long it took you to realize he is the answer you've been searching for, He will always love and have a place for you in Heaven if you accept Jesus into your heart! Then you will experience the greatest joy you will ever have. one more thing once a christian always a christian, there is nothing you can possibly do to not be able to enter the kingdom of God!

if your reading thruogh this and thinking where do you poeple come up with this stuff, that this is just a bunch of hog wash, think long and hard about your decission not to except God, Christianity and the Bible. IF you die tonight where will you go? how do you know you will get there? If you have no idea i suggest opening a bible and getting to know God for the kind commpassinate loving being He is. God is not some mean, stern man sitting in heaven waiting for us to mess up so he can put another strike by our name. yes when we mess up he is saddend by our sin, but all we have to do is believe that because of his son Jesus Christ our sins can be taken away, and ask for His Forgivness. Jesus really loves you, no matter how bad you mess up, how mean or disrespectful you are, no matter how long it took you to realize he is the answer you've been searching for, He will always love and have a place for you in Heaven if you accept Jesus into your heart! Then you will experience the greatest joy you will ever have. one more thing once a christian always a christian, there is nothing you can possibly do to not be able to enter the kingdom of God!

...except for rejecting God.

I believe it was St. Paul who said that when we die, Christ comes to us 3 times for acceptance, it is then that we make our decision to accept Him and what he has to offer, this is much easier if you have lived a life of faith. I'd like to pose a question, where do Protestants get the idea that by accepting Christ they are "saved". If we believe that no one can cast judgment to hell, how can they send us to heaven, isn't that Gods decision to be made. Again its hard to read how someone is speaking, I am asking that question genuinely, not sarcastically. I hate to say it because it has been fun, but I think its time to change the subject and let Dave and Susan find the answers they want by themselves. P.S. Its good to ask questions but when someone gives you an answer its good to listen too!

Dave - You are a sicko. If God is what you believe him to be then I want no part of him. Your God is selfish and has very, very weak followers. You need to take a good look at yourself, then immediately pick up the phone and call a shrink.
You can participate in your selfish God's suffering. I'm going to enjoy life, because when you die it's all over. That's it. You are dead. There is nothing more and there is nothing that proves that this is not true. I hope you get the help you need.

David,
Two questions:
1. Why do you care so much about what we believe?
2. What kind of God would you prefer?

Philosophically speaking, the existence of God is almost required. There are many "proofs" of God's existence which no atheist has been able to discredit - nor has science done so. If you are completely convinced your position is right, then why worry about us Christians? As I noted above with someone else, you're making Pascal's wager: If the Christians are right, you're in trouble. If you're right, we'll never know. I believe that a soul without God is restless, constantly seeking Truth. Which is why I would guess you are here.

As far as the second question goes: Do you want to create your own God as the ancient Greeks did? Or would you prefer to worship the true God, whatever He may be? If you get to choose the qualities of God, doesn't that make you greater than your creation? I can explain the theology and philosophy behind the suffering, but it's pointless until you understand that (a) God exists and (b) there's no point in worshiping a non-existent created being.

We all worship something David, but Dave and I choose to worship God, rather than materialism, man, or anything else.

God bless,
Jay

Jay, you are right about a couple of things.. I should not be worrying about what Christians think. I'm certain that most of you are very good people. I have these types of conversations with friends all of the time.
I do however disagree with what you are saying about something. (I must first tell you that I am a scientist). Science has never tried to discredit religion or the existence of a God. Science is all about understanding where we come from... where everything comes from. Science has no intentions of trying to discredit religion because religion discredits itself. There is nothing about religion that science can disprove because there is no substance to religion. It is a belief and that's it. I feel that that was the intent of the Bible. It was written with such ambiguity that it really can't be substantiated or discredited. It's well written in that sense and only that sense. The Bible was believable to some before we had answers that science has provided. Knowing what I know, I choose not to believe as do all of my colleagues and most of Americans. As time goes on this tend will continue to grow.
Having said all of that..I must tell you that I abide by the Ten Commandments. Not because they are in the Bible or the word of God, but because they are all common sense laws. I go through life showing love and respect for others and I do not hurt anyone. I expect the same from others. I want to believe that people are inherintly good. If people need religion to behave that way then good for them. I support that 100 percent

David, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Karen

Greetings to all of you!

Personally, I have seen the movie, "The Passion of the Christ," and the fact that the movie has stirred controversy and heightened emotions is not really surprising to me for this simple reason: Christ himself, his life, his actions, his very words were also, controversial. However, there are some fundamental truths which should be expressed. We know from unbiased, historical accounts, such as in the writings of Josephus, that Jesus born, lived, and died exactly as the biblical accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John expounds. I'm sure no one debates these facts. However, we need to take this information several steps forward from simple truths, and facts to be exchanged....

It has been said before, quite eloquently, by other literary personalitites, who have considerably more time on their hands than me, that the Old Testament writings are centuries of foretelling of Christ's comming, and that the New Testament is the fullfillment of prophesy. The simple truth is, Christ's comming, His acts, His burial and resurrection, even the manor in which he was put to death were predicted and predated centuries upon centuries before He was born.

Archaeology continues to uncover artifacts which prove the biblical account. One example, the Bible speaks of the existance of the Hitite Empire. Until recently, most authorities believed this one fact to be folklore, untrue, the myth of another one of its fairytales. However, in the past 20 years, diggers uncovered artifacts that proved the existance of the Hitite Empire. The scientist Voltaire once said, "Even if you have all the facts, it is still a question of faith." To this, more than two thousand years ago, Jesus said, "Unless you humble yourselves as a little child and believe, you will not see the kingdom of heaven." The truth is that there are biblical scholars, historians, and other noted "experts" on these subjects who could present us with far more details and expound on many more supposed questions and seeming mysteries of the bible with vivid clarity. Ultimately, it is still a personal, individual decision. For centuries of generations, and in generations past, present and future, people of all walks of life, living in many countries, have been faced with this one central issue, as Pilot said, and as the movie only too clearly pointed out: "What will I do with this man Jesus, who is called the Christ?" This isn't just Pilot's question, it becomes ours, too!

The truth is...we can present all kinds of facts, (www.defendingthefaith.com), only as one example, but ultimately, faith must superceed the facts, because Christianity is not simply a mere discipline, it is not a religion (a rigid set of rules as such), Christianity is the very essance of touching God himself, communing with Him, walking in fellowship with Him, receiving forgiveness for the sinful acts we have committed, and being in right standing with Him through forgiveness. In short, it's not about rules, it's about relationship! "For the Word of God is living, active, sharper than any two edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Hebrews 4: 11-13.

Ultimately, we come face to face with that one central issue in life, and all of the brightest minds or the facts won't convence anyone. Only the Holy Spirit can convence one through conviction. As human beings, we tend to focus on life and occurances in our natural world, the physical and temporal. Only faith in Jesus can bridge the gap, and openly reveal the spiritual, the eternal, the life after our life on earth. Billy Graham quotes a familiar verse, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who perish."

So why is the focal point always Jesus, anyway? I mean, why are Christians so narrow minded as to think that their way is the only way? Jesus himself said, "I am the Way, the truth and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me." "In Him was life, and that life was the light of mankind." Centuries before it happened, the Old Testament again fortold the comming of Jesus as a sacrifice for all men. "...without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin." You can see from these verses that there are not many ways to God. There is only one way, and it is through a personal choice, not one of persuasion, but of faith. Jesus is the only spiritual leader who not only made big claims, he backed them up! The other "religious leaders" are still in the tomb!God is solvreign, yet He gives us a choice. The choice is ours...to choose or not to choose, that REALLY is the question of the ages!

Before you make any determinations, before acting hastily, consider actually reading the Bible. A renown, English Archaeologist spent his whole career attempting to disprove the Bible and its claims. At the end of a 30+ year career of unsucessful attempts, he bacame a Christian.

It has been stated, to paraphrase, that many people will choose not to believe. The bible also predicts this...." 1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth..."I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[1]
11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[2] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him."

We are not getting better. In fact, if you look around us, things are getting worse, and the reason why the bible is as applicable today as the time it is written is because human nature, the sinful nature of man never changes, and we are just as much in need of a savior today, as 2,000 years ago! Not the physical, earthly kind, the spiritual and eternal one. The Jews in and of themselves did not crucify Jesus, all of mankind did, because we are ALL born of a sinful nature: "No one is righteous, no not one."

May you be convinced not by man's wisdom, in a worldly sense, but through the wisdom that comes from God. "For you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." "The Word of God never returns void."

Dear Forgiven,

BLAH, BLAH, BLAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

This is not the place for a novel.

Patrick,

Where does St Paul say that? I'm really interested.

BTW, I'm have a question thats a bit off subject but what you said brought it to my mind, so I'll just go ahead and ask it.

Catholics believe that Jesus descended into hell to rescue the captives. I take this to mean that Catholics believe that he both literally and figuritively did so ie he freed both the living and the dead from captivity. I believe this is the answer to a common misunderstanding that the people who lived before the time of Jesus are eternally damned unfairly because they never had the chance to accept Him while they lived.

If I am correct about this belief then my question is where is this supported in the Bible? I can't personally recollect any verses but doesn't mean they aren't there, so I would like to know what scriptural support there is for this teaching.

If you would rather not answer here because we would get off topic, then could you please tell me how I could get this information?

Thanks

Peggy,

Consider the following verses:

"'When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.' (What does 'he ascended' mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)" Ephesians 4:8-10

"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah..." I Pet 3:18-20.

Hope that helps.

In Christ,
Dave

Dave,
I just wanted to apologize for a rude comment that I had made to you earlier. I take it back. You are probably a very good person and I had no right to characterize you as anything other than that. I am often too judgmental and I am trying to change that.
I realize that this arena is your arena, not mine. I am a visitor. I meant no disrespect. Have a great day.

David

David,

I sure do appreciate it. No harm done. As you may have noticed, I myself can be ridiculously hotheaded, as can be seen in my response to Casey. I always have to kick myself into remembering what Christ did for me... for everyone. The Passion certainly did help me to internalize just how much has been forgiven me. And if I refuse to forgive, I myself cannot be forgiven. So, thanks for the apology and please keep posting. This is everybody's forum, not just mine.

In Christ,
Dave

Dave,

That you know what morality is at all is a miracle due solely to religion. That you don't feel a need for religion in order to behave yourself is a luxury afforded that wouldn't be possble without the progress made by people of faith living out that faith for thousands of years. (i'll can explain these assertions in more detail if you want)

Religion, particularly Christianity, is not something that some people need in order to behave themsleves and get along with others. It is a means to maximize life, to get every last drop and every wholesome and healthy experience out of life. It is far far more than a set of ethical rules. Christians are not people who need to be scared in order to behave ourselves. We get far more out of our belief than just some moral laws. We get nothing less than every good thing the universe has to offer.

Spiritual experience is just such a wholesome and wonderous part of the universe. It has been responsible for more indivdual and societal transformations than any other means by far. It has given us art and science. We owe everything to the spiritual experience.

Do you honestly think that the linkage between deep spirituality and everything worth anything in this world is just a coincidence? Come on, your a scientist, what would you think if some other phenomenon were so linked to everything that we hold most dear as human beings?

You my friend have ruled out a vast tract of human experience that you could participate in, whereas Christians have not only that joyful experience but every experience that you have as well. I am sure that you can't have experienced this for yourself and that's maybe the reason you don't believe. But once again that would be most unscientific of you to rule out a theory because you can't prove it when you also can't disprove it either.

I'm sorry to be so harsh, but our universe is richer. We have more to enjoy, more to love, more to dream about, more to be inspired by etc.

Look at what Jesus represents. Jesus is the sum of absolutely everything thats good in the world, including spiritual experience, and because we have Him, we have it all. Whatsmore, because he was and is a flesh and blood Person, we have one more Someone to love than anyone else does, even other religious believers. And we have the love of a host perfect stangers who love us as family for His sake. What do you have? Science and the Ten Commandments, and I hope the love of family and friends. That's good. I am happy for you. But you are certainly missing out on a lot.

OOOOOPPPS!

I meant to address the comments of the athiest Dave (David), not the Christian Dave! I don't think I need to tell Christian Dave any of what I just said. He should know all about it already ;)

Peggy,

Sounds pretty good to me. Was your comment directed at me? I believe David identified himself as a scientist. I am a Catholic Christian. If you were directing your comment to me, I am afraid I'm not clear what statement I made that prompted your posting. Could you please clarify?

In Christ,
Dave

Dave,

No I wasn't addressing you. See my post directly above your last one. I was talking to the David who identifies himself as a scientist who follows the Ten Commandments but doesn't "need" religion in order to behave himself like we do.

Check out his post of March 8 to see what I mean. I was hoping to make it clear to him that Christians get so much more out of our faith than simply the extra motivation to follow some rules. I wish I could have said more, like how Christians don't follow the rules out of fear but out of love and a strong desire to honor Christ who loves us. But thats a whole other novel! :)

AMEN!!!

Greetings!

In the course of our experiences on earth, man, his finite mind and limited resources, attempts as best he can to come to terms with an an infinite, omnipotent diety who has no beginning and has no ending. If you simply think about a being that had no beginning, and if you ponder that for awhile, this one concept alone will cause your mind to implode. However, Jesus came to not only give us life, throughout the course of His ministry, He also came to bring more difficult spiritual concepts down to earth, so that everyone could be led to an understanding, and into spiritual fullness. I wish to submit to you, that all human kind, whether it is through the bible, or through a minister, that we are JUST BEGINNING to understand God, and it is only through God's Holy Spirit that we can discern God's spiritual principles and His devine spiritual kingdom. This is part of what Jesus came to do..."to open the eyes of the blind"...and "to set the captives free." Sometimes, though, I think it is important to take what you might call a "spiritual inventory", to look deep inside our own lives and our own spiritual journeys and realize....maybe I have come a long way....but, I STILL have a long way to go, and I will never fully arrive as a Christian until my spirit is called home to be with the Lord, Himself!

Sometimes, I am apalled by something that has been reported on the news, or by how someone who is not a Christian can treat or speak to others, but then something inside....like the spirit of conviction, speaks to me and I think, you know, spiritual piety has absolutely no place in my life, because I am a murderer, I am an idolator, I am a thief and a liar...I am those things that Jesus went to the cross for, and it is ONLY through His grace and forgiveness that I can have ANY redemption, or a second chance at all! Like Mel implied in the movie, it was partly my hand too that took the spike and placed it inside the hand of Jesus and drove it through His flesh and into the cross of Calvary!!! It was my sin in part, that took the cat of nine tails with sharp metal points on the ends, and slashed His back with it....This was a physical representation of what was happening spiritually, of His taking our sins upon Himself. Still, it is for no less than an unfathomnable, incredible love, a love that only God can comprehend, that He still loved me enough to cry out, "Father forgive them because they know not what they do!" My Lord and Savior was beaten BEYOND recognition! He knew what he would have to endure, yet He still surrendered His innocent hands to undergo the cruelest form of human torture.....for me....and for you....and every time I think of this, I am humbled, and I come to the same conclusion.....the ground IS truly level at the foot of the cross!!! "No one is righteous, no not one."

As the movie only too clearly points out....religious piety kills, it drives away, at the VERY least, it causes people to become indifferent and unreceptive toward the faith of our Lord because all of us who are Christians are called to the mission field in our walks with Christ. This mission field could be overseas, or it could be at home, in our own "back yards". Whatever the case, before Jesus ascended, He said, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." "Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it."

The sad truth is, people only have so many opportunities to hear the gospel, then it is too late. Since we don't have a lifetime guarantee, who knows when this time will be, or how soon it will end? If you think of it, our faith in Jesus is the only thing that we can take from this life to the next. In truth, it is the only thing that matters.

In light of who I really am, a sinner condemned unclean, but saved by the blood of Jesus; how much more could we accomplish in this world if we showed people Christ's love, His grace, and His forgiveness, instead of judgement and condemnation. This is what put Jesus on the cross. It is spiritual irony that the very people who claimed to be the closest to God, the Pharasees and Saducees, were the very ones who put Jesus to death.

Everyone seems to go away from the movie with different experiences. For my wife, she was compelled with a desire to do more for God, expressing her love for God through works. I left the movie with this simple revelation: the enemy uses those people who are the furtherest away from the Lord, from the living, active, and loving faith of Jesus, he uses them against other Christians, in the form of persecution of all kinds.

Forgiven,
Karen is right. You are a windbag.

There was a purpose to everything that was written, but unfortunately, sometimes it is easier to criticise, than to look inward. The reason why the Word of God is just as applicable today as it was then, is because the sinful nature of man, human nature hasn't changed, and we are as much in need of a saviour today as 2,000 years ago. What if we tried to put faith into practice, into something positive, instead of name calling on an anonymous web site, where it is all to easy? If you have a problem with something I've said, then maybe it is your own conscious that convicts you? Mine does. That's why I need Jesus.

One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Matthew 22:35-39.

"Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you."
Proverbs 9:7-9.

Wow! It looks like someone missed my point. I'll leave it at that. Peggy, you completely missed my point. That's okay though. It happens.
I actually came here today to ask for some opinions of people on the reactions of "Passion" in the middle east. I thought it was weird that some of the muslims were coming out of the screening of the film in tears and saying things like "This movie exposes the Jews for what they really are", and "I hope everyone turns against the Jews". This sounds even stupider when you consider that the Quran denies that Jesus was even crucified. What do you think of that?
I spent a considerable amount of time in the middle east some time ago and got a first hand look at the anti-semitism that exists there. How can the muslims have it both ways? Seems a bit inconsistent. Is faith just a convenience that allows you to get your way?

David,
That reaction to the movie was predicted long before this happened. What is there to be surprised about?

to the Catholic-Christian Dave
just a quick question, you say you are a catholic christian, but what do you believe that is different than a protestant christian?

to the catholic christian dave,
just a quick question. you say you are a catholic christian but what you believe that is different than a protestent christian?

Good question, dee. The most fundamental difference between the Catholic faith and the Protestant faith is the question of authority. Both "groups" would agree that God is the ultimate authority and that He has given all authority in heaven and on earth to His Son Jesus Christ. For Protestants, Christ manifests His instructions/requirements through the Bible alone. Additionally, when it comes to interpretation of the Bible, Protestants by and large claim that each individual can arrive at the correct interpretation by recourse to the Holy Spirit that resides within them. That means, for all intents and purposes, that there is no final authority beyond the individual. In other words, each person declares what God is saying to him or her and there is no authority on earth that can say otherwise.

By contrast, Catholics believe that just as the Father gave all authority to Jesus, so Jesus gave all of His authority to His Church. See, e.g., Matthew 16:17-19, John 20:21-23, I Timothy 3:15, Hebrews 13:17, and many others if you are interested. As a result, God's Word is to be found in the collective Body of Christ. This Body wrote the New Testament (from 50-70 AD) and compiled those books into the Bible (from 392-397 AD). So we accept and believe that the Scriptures are the inspired, holy, and inerrant Word of God because the authority instituted by God (the Church) has told us so. Additionally, this Body has explained the Bible and further developed our understanding of Christ. That is what we call Sacred Tradition. A good example of this is the doctrine of the Trinity. Until the third century, nobody had ever really broached the subject of Christ's divinity. It wasn't until around 320 AD that the issue began to be discussed in depth. At that time, two rival factions developed (one saying Jesus was God, the other saying not). In 325 AD the Church formally declared that He was one with the Father (the Nicene Creed). This creed was later reaffirmed by the Church at the end of the fourth century. Even so, between 350 AD and around 550 AD, the majority of Christianity believed that Christ was a created being (i.e. not God). In spite of all this, the bishop of Rome (the Pope) never waivered from proclaiming that Christ was God. By the close of the sixth century, the entirety of the Church had finally submitted to the infallible teaching of the councils of Nicea and Constantinople, as well as the teaching of the Pope. This is an example of Sacred Tradition, which Catholics believe to be just as much the inspired, inerrant Word of God as the Bible. But ultimately it is the Church that is the mouthpiece of God on earth, and thus Catholics must give their obedience to the Church (as She contains the very voice of God) and not to their own interpretations of what God requires. (Note that this is only true for issues of doctrine rather than personal choices, such as "is it right to give my car to my friend?")

In short, both Catholics and Protestants nominally claim to follow the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Beyond that, however, Protestants could be labeled the "religion of the Book", while Catholics could be labeled the "religion of the Church". Since Christ did state that He would build a Church, and never said that He would build a Book, you can guess which side of the line I fall.

In Christ,
Dave

I HAVE REALLY ENJOYED READING THE DIFFERENT COMMENTS ON THIS SITE. THE ONE THING THAT I REALLY FIND INTERESTING IS THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE WRITTEN WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WILL BE WITHOUT AN EXCUSE. THERE IS NO NEED TO GET MAD OR ARGUE CONCERNING OUR BELIEF IN THE SAVING POWER OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. I AM NOT ASHAMED OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST FOR IT IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION. EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.YOU CAN CONFESS IT NOW OR LATER, BUT IT WILL TAKE PLACE, THAT IS A FACT! I AM SO GLAD TO BE A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER. I AM GLAD TO HAVE A REAL REALATIONSHIP WITH THE LORD JESUS. I AM SO GLAD THAT MY NAME IS WRITTEN IN THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE. WE ARE LIVING IN THE LAST DAYS, AND THE LORD IS SOON TO RETURN. GOD HELP US ALL. FELLOW CHRISTIANS REMEMBER THAT WE ARE NOT WRESTLING AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD.THE WORD OF GOD WILL STAND.LOOK AT THE END OF THE BOOK(BIBLE) WE WIN!!! WE ARE JUST GOING THROUGH OUR JOURNEY.

JESUS IS LORD!!!!!!!

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