There's a lot of confusion by our protestant friends over why we need the Church. I think this quote sums up the reason for the existence of the Church rather nicely:
"The eternal Shepherd and Guardian of our souls, in order to make lasting the saving work of redemption, chose to establish his Holy Church so that in it, as in the house of the living God, all of the faithful might be held together by the bond of one faith and one love. For this reason, before he was glorified, he prayed to the Father not for the Apostles only, but for those also who would believe in him on their testimony, that all might be one as he, the Son, and the Father are one."
- - Vatican Council I, First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ
How can we understand, unless we are taught? (Acts 8:30-31)
God bless,
Jay
we need the church (building) to assemble as the body of Christ on earth. to fellowship and share our faith with one another. to have an atmosphere where we can praise and hear from God. a place where we can bring the first fruits of our labor to provide for others and build up the Kingdom. to build up the Kingdom within ourselves through praise and worship. to dance, to laugh, to cry, to lay hands and to be on one accord in His Holy Presence so that we may recieve a revelation.
The Church, Paul, is not a bunch of buildings. The Church is the mystical body of Christ founded by Jesus in Matt 16:18.
God bless,
Jay
what mystical body, that sounds so sci-fi? do you means the mysticism of the Spirit which is found in you that burns your soul to worship God? you are the temple of the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 3:16, the Kingdom is within you, according to Jesus and Jesus is the Kingdom who is in us. you and i. we have overated the Church and have underated ourselves so long it's time that we explore the truth.
Paul
Paul,
So what you're saying is, "We should ignore Jesus' words and make up our own beliefs." Is that right, Paul? We've pointed time and time again to the verses where Jesus clearly creates a Church (Matt 16:18). You simply ignore these teachings. And you still have not answered one of our questions, Paul. Why is that? What we (and others) on this blog are trying to show you is that your faith is not based on the Bible or on Jesus - it's based on whatever you want to believe. You can't support your posts (when we challenge a particular point, you simply change the subject and ignore our questions).
By the way, the "mystical" body of Christ is the Church. This has been taught for 2,000 years and you're the first person I've met who hasn't heard of it.
Paul, for the last time: Where does the Bible teach Sola Scriptura? Where does the Bible (the only source of Truth according to you) show which books should be included in the Bible? How can you ignore Jesus' clear, direct words?
God bless,
Jay
What is the point of the church? Why do we need it? what is the church? what are its roles?
THREE SIMPLE STEPS TO THE TRUTH
Step 1 Jesus formed a church on earth
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." which means, He will defend it from within and from without, against all adversaries for all time .
The protestant after hearing this from the KJV bible has no recourse. He must admit that Jesus did indeed establish a church on earth. If he or she continues to deny it without adequate cause, walk away because you’re dealing with a 2+2=5 mentality. However if they concede your point move on to step 2
Step 2 Jesus will dwell with His church “forever” and give them the infallible Holy Spirit to guide them in perpetuity. GOD has said He will be with His Church forever!
Jesus said, “and I am with you all days, even until the end of the world." Jesus also said --“to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.” Ephesians 3:21
“Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain (Olivet) where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matt. 28:20
That means He will be with His Church every day in every century until the end of time, no matter what!
Which Church was His Church when Jesus promised: “I am with you all days, even until the end of the world?” I think everyone knows the answer whether they want to acknowledge it or not!
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 16
The protestant must concede that Jesus did in fact promise the apostles (apostolic church) that He would be with them forever; “I will never leave you” and that the Holy Spirit would guide His church in all truth, and there can be only one TRUTH.
If the protestant says: the Holy Spirit guides all Christian churches into all truth, then he is simply calling Jesus a liar because there can be only one truth, not 38000 competing truths:
Jn 10:16; -- there shall be one fold and one shepherd
Eph 4:3-6; -- one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father
Rom 16:17; -- avoid those who create dissensions
1 Cor 1:10; -- I urge that there be no divisions among you
Phil 2:2; -- be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing
Rom 15:5; -- God grant you to think in harmony with one another
Jn 17:17-23; -- I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17: 23; -- that they may be brought to perfection as one
1 Cor 12:13; -- in one spirit we were baptized into one body
Rom 12:5; -- we, though many, are one body in Christ
Eph 4:4; -- one body, one Spirit, called to one hope
Col 3:15; -- the peace into which you were called in one body
Step 3 Finally, Jesus said: "He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." Almost all Protestants reject Christ’s church: you do the math!!!
“The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." Apostles endowed with power.
In conclusion Jesus started a church which will never be overthrown; hand picked overseers who could perform miracles on a par with Christ Himself with the gift of laying on of hands, to govern His visible church until His second coming and sent the divine spirit of truth to guide her in perpetuity and adamantly declared –any one who rejects you is not of my church. So, if the Catholic Church has fallen into error as Protestants like to claim, then, Jesus is a liar and all Christianity is a lie and as Saint Paul says: “you are still in your sins!” If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.”
No protestant on the planet can refute this simple clear- cut logic. I f they try to, it’s nothing more than an exercise in futility.
As a Protestant believer I am somewhat surprised to hear you say that some Protestants don't believe in the church. I know of very few and most of those are not truly Bible believing Christians and are in error. What Protestants don't believe in is Apostolic Succession and Papal or Vatican centered powers. I think seeing the creation of A.S. (leading to the Catholic Church proper) in Matthew 16:18 is a leap. We read Jesus speaking directly to Peter about his confession. We definitely see the creation of the church here but a Protestant will tell you this is the body of believers (which IMO includes many Catholics) of the church age, not a specific form of governing and teaching. Where the Catholic church teaches Biblical doctrine and leaves out it's own creations all is well and good. When we begin to worship the creations of man instead it becomes idolatry which we are clearly warned of in Scripture. I am going to keep this relatively short because I don't know if the thread is active but would be happy to continue the thinking if I see a reply. In short, I believe and think you can support from the Bible a good deal of what you have said in the response. What I don't agree is that this, in simple and clear-cut logic, points to the structure that has become known as the Catholic church. I do leave it believing that you are a man trying to obey the commands of Jesus and that encourages me greatly.
I will check back and see if this elicits a response. I would be happy to explore individual points if it does.
Thank you for letting me post a Protestant view on this thread. I came across the thread doing a study on the church for a discipleship group at my local church. I find this dialogue fascinating. Since the first reply was taken maybe I can delve a little deeper and address the John 10:16 passage?
The context of chapter 10 in broad terms is, as you know Jesus showing that He is the Christ. Jesus has been working His miracle ministry which is meant to show his authority from the Father. He is also debating with the Scribes and Pharisees who were seen as the general religious authorities of the age. As we are lead to 10:1 Jesus is stating that one who enters the fold must come in through the door (paraphrase as you have quoted above.) I think the biggest point to this passage is seen in 10:7 where Jesus ties back His point and says "Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep." He is making clear that if one is to enter the Kingdom of our Father it is through Him. There is no other means of salvation save Christ our Lord. That is the context. So what is the fold? I suppose you could see this as the church, and it wouldn't be a great stretch but I have always thought this fold to be the body of all believers in Jesus Christ who have ever lived or will live in the future. That would be analogue to the church universal in proper Protestant terms. I don't see it as an effective proof of the need to be part of the Catholic Church but based on my experience that is probably to be expected. Further I think trying to draw out proof of the church here is to miss the main point: Jesus is the sole means of salvation and any other claimant to this role is a liar and a thief.
I pray that this comes off as a respectful counterpoint to what has been previously written.
R Mullen
Welcome to the board. Catholics agree fully that Jesus is the sole means of salvation. I'm not sure if you knew that. Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar and a thief.
That being said, we learn from Paul that the Church is the body of Christ. From the road to Damascus where Christ reveals himself to Paul he asks Paul. "Paul why do you persecute the CHURCH?" oops or does Christ ask "Why do you persecute ME?" This introduction sticks with Paul thorughout his ministry as he repeatedly refers to the Church as the body of Christ.
As Catholics we see that in Christ's last prayer before being abducted, John 17, Christ demands unity of those that follow...that would be us. But some of us refuse unity. In 1 Corinthians Paul asks... "Is Christ divided?" Is he? I say no. Others say we are united by saying "Jesus is my Lord and Savior." Ok Catholics agree with everyone but is that what the bible says? Nowhere does it say this is our only point of unity. The Corinthians had this view and Paul berates them. Show me where in the bible it says we may have different minds and come to different judgements? Paul says they must all be the same...
Some of us judge others saying "that one is not bible based this one is and of course I am." What hubris! For the first 1000 years after Christ there was only 1 church. Since Martin Luther there is now 30000 Protestant denominations alone with 5 new minds and judgements per week... These are numbers published by Anglicans by the way (Oxford).
Who judges who is bible based? Each of the 30000 believes the others are wrong on doctrine. Ask a Lutheran or Anglican or Orthodox or some Methodists... Is the Eucharist real? Most say yes... ask the other 20% of Protestants they say no its only symbolic because the bible says it is only symbolic (I have never found that verse by the way). How about abortion how about gays how about women priests how about salvation! gimme a break. 0 agreement yet all claim to be bible based.
Who is to judge them on who is bible based? They don't agree with your man made personal interpretation of scripture? Therefore they can't be bible based because my man made tradition is better than their man made tradition.
Are you infallible R. Mullen?
In Love
when we were one
Ah, I see what the problem is here. Protestants are Bible Believers and not God or Jesus Believers. They worship the Bible, but not the real Bible with 73 book but a man made 666 bible at the behest of Satan. They pray to the Bible and not God and they deny God the Worship he deserves by worhiping the Bible instead. Protestants are not Christians, they are idoloters, that is why he just can't get it. He will never understand because he is too busy worshiping this man made book then reading a Real Bible with all 73 Holy Spirit inspired books.