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Danny, great article! Thank God for Mary's yes!

I used to attend protestant churches quite frequently in my youth, and I can honestly say that not ONCE, in those probably hundreds of expriences across a vast number of differing denominations (including the denomination of "non-denominationalism"), did I ever hear even a single sentence about Mary's faith, Mary's willingness in the Lord, or even simply her magnificent role model as a mother. Instead, the over-reaction of Protestantism to not be like Catholicism has alienated it from its own mother.

How truly sad, and so we must pray that our mother will direct her children whether they recognize her or not to her Son, as she consistently does for those of us who honor her as Scripture says.

Is this "Mary as the ark of the new covenant" argument something you made up or is this Catholic theology? I thought I knew Catholic theology inside and out but have never heard this. A cursory search on Google revealed nothing similar to your argument.

Do you have any further basis for your argument other than "logic?" Is there anything in the New Testament that directly speaks of her being the ark of the new covenant?

Tim,
Apparently you don't know Catholic theology as well as you thought: this idea is discussed quite a bit by the early Church Fathers, particularly those who studied under St. John.

You should read the whole article, there are numerous Scripture passages that discuss Mary in the same terms the ark was discussed - obviously St. John intended to protray her as the new ark of the covenant, just as she is the new eve.

Jay

Tim,
Yes, realizing that Mary is prefigured in the Old Testament "ark" has been noted for ages by many different people. Here are a couple of articles you might enjoy reading:
By Fr. Antoine Bakh

By Scott Hahn

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/9587/maryark.html

I did read the article, and though you cite Scripture several times, none of them directly support the view that Luke thought Mary was the new ark of the covenant. Your sole argument is based on perceived parallelism between Luke and 2 Samuel. What I asked for was for direct support other than that.

I am also in the dark as to how Revelation 11 refers to Mary. Can you show me how that verse speaks about Mary and not the "Old Testament" ark of the covenant?

And no, I guess I do not know Catholic theology as well as I thought. :) I'm always glad to learn more, so appreciate this article!

Dear Tim,

This is Danny, the author of the article. Thanks for reading it. I got most of my material from Scott Hahn, a trustworthy Roman Catholic source. You should remember that name and check out some of his stuff if you have the chance. He's a great instrument of God's peace.

I believe I cited more than enough examples of the parallel between the two events to show that it is not a perceived parallel. That was not my only point either. Yes, we must also use "logic" to think about the fact that God chose Mary, a woman, to bear His Son. From human physiology we realize that Jesus was (for a certian time) inside of Mary, just like those holy objects were inside the old ark of the covenant. To me it doesn't get anymore obvious than that.

As for the book of Revelation you have to remember that the chapter divisions in the Bible are artificial, since they were imposed by scribes in the middle ages. John's original Apocalypse was one continuous narrative. Reading on through chapter 12, I think it becomes pretty obvious who the woman is.
Let me know what you think.

Pax et bonum,
Danny

Even if you assert that the woman is Mary (which I would not say is obvious - at best it is possible) I see no reason to believe that Mary = ark. Standard Biblical interpretation says that you take the most obvious meaning first - and most obvious is that the author speaks of the Old Testament ark. I see no reason whatsoever to reinterpret that. Does Scott Hahn have more information about the interpretation?

And a question (for which I do not have an answer at the moment). Did the Israelites worship and honor the ark or did they worship God whose presence was inside the ark?

Tim -
Don't jump on the blog and begin accusing Catholics of worshiping Mary. Even an amateur theologian knows this is not what the Church teaches. Please read this post for a better understanding of the Catholic position.

Now, back to your original post. If I say:

Oh beautiful, her spacious eyes,
And amber waves of hair

If we simply take the simplest explanation, we'll never delve into the Scripture as Jesus did. Remember, the Jews of His day did not understand Scripture at the level Christ did, which is why they missed their Savior. For example, in John 6:53, Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say unto you, unless you eat [chew or gnaw is a better translation] the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." As a protestant you obviously don't simply take the easist explanation for this verse, otherwise you would be Catholic. This should be true for all of Scripture.

To take this a step further, I highly recommend the article by Scott Hahn that Savrx posted - it's a good explanation (better than I could do!).

God bless,
Jay

Yes, I know the Catholic position on worshiping Mary. That's why I used the word "honor" as well. I will read Hahn's article in the hope that it answers my questions.

Hi everybody. First off, I came across this site lastnight searching for information on purgatory and somehow now I am hooked. Definitely a good read. ;-)

However, ok. I had never heard about the the Virgin Mary and her life paralleled to the Ark of the Covenant. That is very interesting. But as I was going about today and thought more about it, something still troubles me. So please, bear with.

Whenever I have wondered about Mary I found myself reading Matthew 12:46-50 (alternate version in Luke 8:18):

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. *Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
He replied to him, "Who is my mother and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said "Here are my mother and brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
(*verse 47 is not in some manuscripts)

I would like to know your thoughts on this passage.

Also, my pastor from way back was discussing Nimrod (mentioned in the Old Testament) who I believe was the king of Babylon. Legend goes that he declared himself to be a God and the people believed him. After he died, his wife claimed that she was carrying him inside of her. Thus she became a mother of "god" (Nimrod). And consequently, she was held in very high regard by the people as a vessel of their god.

The reason that I bring this up is because in general, it's appeared to me that pagan beliefs/practices are assimilated by the Catholic Church in order for the people to feel comfortable with it. Or something to that effect.

A good example is Day of the Dead (Día de los Muertos) in the Mexican Catholic belief. This day is hardly Biblical. It stems from the Aztecs worshipping and fearing the dead. As a result, the conquistadores came, conquered them, and assimilated some beliefs so that the people could accept Catholicism. Ok, maybe it wasn't quite like that, perhaps the people just held onto the belief, but regardless, it still remains a practice, and the Mexican Catholics hold it to be a viable day.

Also, in regards to Mary being like the Ark, please correct me if I am wrong, but was the ark itself the important thing, or was it simply the container for the Ten Commandments, Manna, and Aaron's rod? That is, was the ark more important than the contents?

If that's the case, I can definitely see how Mary would be held in such a higher regard. However, even if she is a parallel to the ark, inside of her was the Son of God. Now I agree that she was important because God chose her to carry His Son, but still, is the container as important as the contents... or more important?

I thank you for you time.

Que Dios les bendiga y les acompañe para siempre

Tontito,
Just to address the assimilation of pagan beliefs, remember God has done this time and again. In the Old Testament, God used circumcision, which was a pagan belief, and turned it into a requirement for Jews. Baptism was likewise a pagan event. God can take these things, which are meaningless in the pagan religions, and make them holy and sacred. He has that power. I think even you would agree that Baptism is now a Christian practice, since God decided that it should be so.

Jay

That is interesting. By the way, I didn't mean to imply that only the Catholic Church would do that, I realize that any church can assimilate pagan views/practices... i.e. (Christmas Day (as in December 25th)),... and others....

what intrigues me, is where did circumcision and baptism come from?

at least for circumcision, that was a covenant with Abraham, but where did it manifest before him? I recall hiim convincing a king and his men to circumcise themselves and he slay them while they writhed in agony,.... so where does it point to circumcision being a pagan practice? ;-)

I look forward to your response.

Tontito,

This is in response to the last point in your first post. Catholics do not think Mary is higher or equal to Jesus. It is only because of her God-chosen relationship with Jesus that she has a special significance among human beings. I thought I made that clear in the article. I hope that clarifies things.

Pax et bonum,
Danny

Ok. Thanks. It could just be a personal misconception that I have, in which case, thanks for clearing it up.

Tontito,

Another important thing to remember is that the Ark of the Covenant was important. I would go so far as to say very important, for God Himself ordered its construction and instructed the Israelites as to how they should behave in its' presence.

I'll quote the commentary in the Navarre Bible on Exodus 25:11, where God was commanding Moses as to how the Ark should be constructed:

The ark was of very great importance in the early history of Israel and therefore it was given different names according to where it was or the traditions which mentioned it. Thus, it is called the Ark of God (in Joshua), the Ark of the Lord (in 1 Samuel), the Ark of the Law (in Deuteronomy), the Ark of Witness. It was a memorial to the Covenant between God and his people, because it contained the tables of the Covenant; but, first and foremost, it was a symbol of the presence of the Lord (v.22; cf. 1 Samuel 4:4; 2 Samuel 6:2).

Another interesting point that this brings into consideration is the Catholic tradition of giving various titles to Mary down through the ages; i.e. the Mother of God, Ever-Virgin, Mother of the Church, etc. Another parallel to the Ark....very interesting.

Another good book on Mary is All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed: Biblical Mariology It covers in detail the Church's understanding of the scriptural presence of Mary. It is excellent. I highly recommend it.

In Christ,
Joe

So, having skimmed thru this and not really read any of it, you may choose to ignore my post, as I will porbably forget this place exsisted in a matter of hours.
I was raised Roman Catholic. We do not "worship" mary, we simply hold her in a high regard, as she is a more attainable person to direct our prayers through. I believe an olden day belief was that mere mortals weren't good enough to speak to God or Jesus, so we direct our prayers through Mary so that she can then pass them on to God. She's like a prayer middle man. Or the Prayer Post office. Look up the "Act of Contrition" if you don't believe me.
Thanks for letting me intrude.

Leslie,
In the future, read the article before commenting on it. Not one point in the article suggests Catholics "worship" Mary. You apparently just assumed (and you know what that does) that this was our point, when the opposite is closer to it.

We don't mind you intruding, but please know what you're discussing when you intrude. By the way, there are many more logical reasons why we pray to Mary than the one you suggest.

God bless,
Jay

Tontino,
Again, sorry for the delay. Abraham took his Egyptian maid Hagar and had a child with her, since he didn't believe his wife could conceive (all in Genesis 16). Egyptians were pagans that practiced circumcision. Because of this, God commanded Abraham to circumcise himself (he was around 100 years old) and all of the males in his household (Genesis 17:9-13). This was a way of God telling Abraham, "You want to have an Egyptian child, then practice some Egyptian customs." But at the same time, God elevated to practice of circumcision to the point where it represented the covenant. Circumcision became the rite of passage that gave you entrance into the covenant (much as Baptism is now).

Does that answer this for you?

God bless,
Jay

To everyone who responded,
Thank you all. I do appreciate the numerous responses. Allow me to answer each person indivivually in this post.

Jay,
So what you're saying is that because God assimilated the pagan belief of circumcision and turned it into a covenant, likewise He could take a pagan practice of worshipping the "mother of a god" and use that for His followers.
Interesting way of looking at it. What I was trying to get at was not that God couldn't do that, because naturally He could, but rather that the church as an institution has done that in the past in an effort to maintain its numbers and grow with more membership. Of course, I guess you could come right back at me and tell me that I shouldn't be worshipping on Sunday since the real Sabbath is Saturday and I would respond with "it's not hindering my relationship with God, so it doesn't matter" and that would basically prove that regardless of assimilated pagan beliefs or no, as long as we truly believe in God and follow the path He has laid out for us, we can't go wrong.

Point taken. ;-)

Joe,
And you're pointing out that the Ark of the Covenant is considered to be very important and the building of it as well, which would correlate to God choosing Mary in particular out of anyone else to carry her son, thus making her extremely special. Good point.
However, I still wonder about what I referenced earlier where Jesus simply says:

"Who is my mother and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said "Here are my mother and brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

I've heard the belief that Mary helps redeem women due to Eve leading Adam to sin, and that's also an interesting take on it. I have no doubt that she was an important gear in the machine of life; however, I still notice how she isn't really mentioned very often after giving birth to Jesus, that is after her part was played. I also notice that no one really talks much about Joseph aside from his being from the line of David, thus proving one of the messianic prophecies.

Also, please bear with me. I am not Catholic and I was hoping for more of a Biblical basis. You explain that the Catholic church tradition has given various names to Mary, but on what basis? To a still unconvinced me, this only further establishes the trying to appeal to the pagan religions. Again, I am not saying she wasn't important, but sometimes I feel as though too much emphasis was placed on her.

Leslie,
So Mary was used as a intermediary. Maybe that's the wrong word. That is, people would pray to her because they didn't feel that they deserved God. Fair enough. But don't numerous people do it in the Old Testament? Or Jesus telling us to pray without ceasing? Maybe my assumption is wrong in thinking that He meant praying to God ;-) No one deserves God's grace, which is why we must believe that Jesus came to die so that we would be able to live in God and with God. I just don't quite understand why someone wouldn't want to pray directly to God. Probably just my "following Martin Luther" or something. ;-) (just kidding)

Tontito,
Just to clarify: we don't worship Mary in any shape or form. However, we do honor her as the Mother of God, which she is (I think all would agree). I was simply pointing out that God regularly takes pagan practices and elevates them to a higher level by making them inherently Christian.

I also highly recommend you read Danny's second post, on Mary and her role. This post explores in more detail the actual role of Mary in our lives today and what that role is based upon.

God bless,
Jay

Jay,
Just to clarify for my own sake, I never once claimed that any Catholic worshipped Mary.

And I agree much like we respect and hold St. Paul in high esteem, or St. Augustine, or Moses, we should appreciate Mary's role in the workings of God's plan. I was simply curious if that was the same type of emphasis that the Catholic Church as well put on her. I realize you don't worship her, much like you don't worship saints. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. ;-)

-Tontito

Where can someone find part II of this article on Mary, ark of the covenant?
Thanks.

Erica,
Here's part two of Biblical Mary.

God bless,
Jay

MARY ARK OF THE COVENANT THE SIGN OF UNITY FOR ALL THE CHRISTIANS...
WOW...IN 1985 I HAVE RECEIVED A PROHESY
KIM KOLLENS LEADER IN THE CRR..GOD HAS A PLAN FOR YOU IN MARSEILLE..1985 WOW
VERY FUN...I PRAY TO OUR LADY SEND ME HER 2 SONS DARIN AND ROBERT...SO THE PROHESY WILL BECOME TRUE...WITH A BIG HOUSE IN MARSEILLE 12 ROOMS.
THE SIGN OF HER CROWN.A BURNING BUSH PRAYER HOUSE
ADORATION RESTORATION FOR THE UNITY..AMEN NICOLE DESLOOVERE..13 JULY FUN//FATIMA A THE END MY IMMACULATE HEART WILL TRIUMPH...SISTER LUCIA WROTE
THE UNITY BELONGS TO THAT TRIUMPH..AMEN GOD BLESS YOU ALL

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