Biblical Mary, Part II

Nice to have you on board, Danny. Hope to read more articles from you in the future.

God bless,
Maria

Wow...a shout out to me! :)

I have now read this article (I'm a few days late to the party, I know).

I am, as you might expect, far from convinced. I think I am surprised by how much Mariology is taken from apparent parallels. There seems to be very little in the New Testament that would stand up as proof of Mary's position as per the Catholic tradition. We have parallels with the ark, parallels with the Davidic model of monarchy... To stretch that into what you believe in Mary seems quite a stretch. I think clear examples from the New Testament would be more important to me. It's not that I minimize the importance of the Old Testament...it's just that the apparent parallels only work when they are clearly proven in the New Testament.

The example of the wedding feast at Cana is, in my mind, the way any son would relate to his mother, not just a "king" relating to a "queen mother."

Anyways, in the end I guess I just don't have time or inclination right now to write a real rebuttal. I am enjoying this series as it helps me solidify my understanding of the Catholic position on Mary. Maybe someday I will feel ambitious and can post some friendly "rebuttal" type articles at my site.

Dear Tim,
I'm glad you read the article and responded. It is unfortunate you dont have the time or inclination to write a real rebuttal. I'd like to read it if you did end up writing one. I would like to point out that Mary being the queen mother is no parallel. She IS the queen mother since her son is the king of kings. To me it doesn't get more logical than that. I don't understand why Protestants cannot look at Jesus, see His relationship with His mother, and come to the logical conclusion. Mariology doesn't threaten or take anything away from Him. We don't worship Mary. We honor her. Jesus did the same. That's a stretch??? I need a rebuttal.

I already gave New Testament quotes on Mary from "Biblical Mary part I" from Luke and John. Would there be an "x" number of NT quotes that would make you reconsider the importance of Mary? Something tells me no.

About the Old Testament, unfortunately, Christians that disassociate themselves with the magesterium of the Church cut themselves off from seeing the big picture of salvation history clearly. Without the help of the Church that has been around for a couple of thousand years, it is a daunting task to pick up the Bible, read through it all, put everything in historical context, deal with different translations, know which books are historical and which aren't, etc, and fully understand how the New Testament fulfills all of the promises of the Old Testament. It is only with the help of the Church that you'll see that the New Tstmt is hidden in the Old Tstmt, and the Old Tstmt is revealed in the New Testament. These clear examples from the Old Testament are just as important as clear examples in the New Testament.
Unfortunately, without the help of the Church, this, among other important things in Christianity, is difficult to see.

I hope you find time for a rebuttal.

Pace e bene,
Danny

OK, I guess in my last post I assumed a bit too much. You simply said we should honor Mary as Catholics honor her.

I think Protestants honor Mary too. We honor all sorts of people who are no longer living. In Canada we celebrate Victoria Day where we (in theory) honor Queen Victoria and the contribution she made to our country. On Remembrance Day we honor our veterans by remembering the contribution and sacrifice they made for our freedom. We honor Mary by reading about her in the Scripture and by teaching about her example of obedience. We honor her by acknowledging she was priveledged to play a unique role in God's plan by bearing Jesus and in this way we say that she was "blessed."

So do Protestants honor Mary? Definitely.

So perhaps the onus is on you to describe what form that honor should take, since that seems to be the real difference between Protestantism and Catholicism.

Hello Tim,
I dont have much time today to write a lengthy response, but i dont want too many days to go by before i reply. I guess that, in a minimal way, Protestants do honor Mary. It is sad though that i never hear a Protestant mention her name outside of Christmas. Maybe it is a reaction out of a fear of not wanting to sound like a Catholic.

But it is sadder still if a Christian honors Mary like s/he honors a veteran, let alone an arbitrary head of state. I hope you can see that veterans and Mary are in different catagories. Yes, it is a noble thing to die protecting one's country, and fellow citizens should honor you if you do that. But Mary did a far more nobler act than any human in history has done. Her yes to the Lord allowed for the salvation of humankind!! Imagine her life. God made flesh as a fetus in her womb; God made flesh as an infant, totally dependent on her; helping Jesus throughout His ministry since day 1; and the final consequence of saying yes to the Lord: following her son, who is God, to the cross and watch him get crucified for our sins.

it blows my mind to ponder such a thing. I dont understand how easily Protestants brush it to the side and ignore it.
what do you think?

Pace e bene,
Danny

I grew up as a Catholic, school & all. I became personally acquainted with my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, at age 26. I thank my mother for my rich heritage in the Catholic faith, which laid the groundwork for my consummated faith in Jesus, resulting in my true salvation.

I am bothered by people bashing the Catholic faith and attempt to defend its precepts and teachings, which I still believe to be sound. As in any religious organization, there are those who devise and practice unorthodox methods and views.

Regarding Mary, I believe her to be blessed, as am I, as is Jesus, which is one of the true mysteries of God. Jesus, praying to God His Father said "show them that You love them even as You have loved Me." John 17:23 How marvelous, how wonderful!!

But I also know that as the Holy Scriptures state: there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus - 1Tim 2:5.

There is no place that I can find in the bible that tells me to pray to or through another, save the Lord Jesus Christ.

We can argue all day and night, and only serve to alienate one another from each other. Let us love one another, as the bible commands us. Let us love in deed and truth. I love my mother and I know Jesus loves His mother. Therefore I choose to love her also. However, to assign deity to my mother would be misplaced affection and I think Mary, the mother of Jesus, as a humble handmaiden as she described herself, would only seek to bring glory and honor to her Son, Jesus.

Jesus, I believe, concurs, in that He in Matt. 12:46-50 indicated that His own mother was on an equal plane with those who do His will. Again, another glorious mystery!

We need not understand everything to worship God and glorify Him in our lives. Let us consider how we may lift up Jesus, that He may draw all men unto Himself. That is our job.

Love to you in Christ.

Mary

Mary,

Thank you for visiting our blog, I hope that it will serve as a valuable resource in your search to know Jesus. I would like to point out two things in reference to your comment.

1) Throughout the New Testament there are multiple references to requests for prayer including Ephesians 6:18-20, Philippians 1:19-20, Romans 15:30-32, and many others. Asking others to pray for us is a biblical belief and doctrine. I don't see how Jesus would take offense to our asking His Mother to pray for us.

2) I agree with you that we are to love one another, but at times it needs to be tough love as even Jesus used in the Temple, with the Pharisees, with the Apostles, and with his own people at times. We live in an age of religious relativism, a time when many want to say "It's okay if you are Protestant or Catholic, as long as you're a Christian." Some even go further than this to include the other religions of the world. But this in itself is not Christian, for to be Christian literally means to be a follower of Christ. To be a follower means to follow, but if I decide how I am going to follow Christ how is that following. When we follow, we go where the person we our following leads us. Christ founded a Church (Matthew 16) and that Church exists today...it is the Catholic Church. He gave the Church authority on earth and in heaven (Matthew 16:19, Matthew 18:18). It is the Church of history as well. Try reading some of the Early Church Fathers, you will find that they are devoutly Catholic.

One question - What is the foundation of your faith now? To say that Christ is, is the logical answer, but how is it that you know Him and how is it that you know that where you are worshipping Him now is where He wants you to be?

You were blessed enough to be born Catholic. I will be praying for you, that one day you will return to the Church of your childhood, to the Church Christ founded, that you might enter fully into the mystery of Truth that can only be found in Catholicism.

In Christ,
Joe

Mary,
Just a few thoughts. First, Catholics assign no deity to Mary as we have repeated time and time again on this blog.

Second, do you ask you friends to pray for you? Just wondering, wouldn't it be nice to also ask the Mother of God to pray for you? She might have a little more pull in heaven, just maybe.

Catholics do not teach that you must go through someone to Jesus. He is the one mediator. But, just like protestants, we believe prayer has an effect and we can pray for others. When I pray for you does that mean you aren't going directly to Jesus? Am I "mediating"? All Catholics do is ask Mary (someone already in heaven) to pray for us; we assume correctly that those in heaven have more grace than those on earth. It's that simple.

God bless,
Jay

Great comments from the protestant and catholic sides. We both agree Mary should be honored and that Mary is not a deity. It terribly saddens me when i see words like Mariology suggesting that catholics treat Mary as a Idol. A lot of protestants have misconceptions about the catholic church. In fact I HATE the church that most protestants THINK is the catholic church. If only they knew the truth of what we believe. There is no point more misconceived among protestants , than our honor of Mary Mother of God. The numerous title we bestow upon her and our admiration of her are often confused for worship. I pray for protestants to understand the catholic faith better, so that they might one day come back to the church of Christ .

LUKE 16: 19-31

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Here Jesus says plainly that the dead are not allowed to communicate with the living. In no place in Scripture does it ever say that the dead work on the behalf of the living for any reason. Nor does it state anywhere in Scripture that we should ever seek to the dead for help in anything. We seek to Jesus because He was dead but was resurrected and is alive forevermore and is Himself God. The dead to us however, are still dead and will be until Jesus resurrects them.

As the story of the rich man and Lazarus shows, the dead have no knowledge of what is happening to the living, and therefore cannot intercede for us in anything. Therefore, as Abraham told the rich man, let the living hear the words of the Scriptures, rather than seek to the dead.

Even when Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration, they spoke to Jesus alone, not to Peter, James and John who were with Him.

Shelby,
This whole story is about Abraham communicating with a dead man. I'm not sure how you can draw that conclusion when clearly you are suggesting that what is happening cannot happen!

We know the prayers of the righteous are very powerful - wouldn't those in heaven be the most righteous? Also note that Martin Luther removed Maccabees from protestant Bibles because of its clear teaching on prayer and those who are dead.

God bless,
Jay

Shelby,

1. Contrary to your suggestion, the passage you cite only shows that those in Hell do not know what is happening with the living (and perhaps not even that). In fact it shows beyond doubt that the dead in Christ not only know what is happening but have contact with the living since the rich man asks Abraham to send someone to the living! I had never realized that until you pointed it out. Thanks!!!

2. Would you mind pointing out in which verse Jesus says the dead cannot communicate with the living?

3. Go read Revelation chapters 6 and 7. Still think the saints are "dead"?

4. Please read my article Praying to the Saints: Are they really listening? This will at least give you an accurate depiction of why the Catholic Church teaches as it does.

In Christ,
Dave

First of all, I do not believe that this scripture show the living communicating with the dead, the rich man and Abraham are no longer in this world. They are talking to each other. Abraham tells the rich man that the living have the word of God in the scripture, we should look to know him there and not through the dead.

As for when Jesus says we need no intercessor but him try:

John 14:6-7

Jesus said, "I AM the way, and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well..."

So now, tell me where this is contradicted in the Bible? Where does it say that we need to pray to any human??? Mary was human. No where in the Bibe does it say anything otherwise.

See Luke 11:27-28

And as He spoke these things, it happened that a certain woman lifted up her voice out of the crowd and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb who borne You and the breasts which You sucked."

And He said, "NO, rather, blessed are those hearing the word of God and keeping it."

So right there I believe that Jesus is telling us to focus on the Word of God, being the Bible, and not on man.

How about this one: 1 Timothy 2:5-6

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men.

I believe this speaks for itself.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, as Matthew 5:17 tells, us. Another "Law" or set of rules is not necessary to get to Jesus, infact Jesus says in Luke 11:46

"And to you experts of the law. woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can harly carry...."

Jesus says, " For my yoke is easy and my burden light. (Matthew 11:30)

All we have to do is know in our heart of hearts that John 3:16 is true and we are saved.

Matthew 10:32 says "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven."

It doesn't say if you acknowledge my mother....No it says HIM!!

Bottom line, sin is anything that seperates us for God, how then can it not be a sin to pray to humans instead of directly to God through his Son Jesus Christ!!!!

Shelby,
Again, the Catholic Church also says that you do not need an intercessor. You have every right to go straight to Christ, which is what you should do.

But, do you ask your friends to pray for you? If so, are you using an intercessor? Is this sinful? No, of course not. And in James 5:16 we learn that the prayers of those who are holy are powerful. Is anyone more holy than those in heaven? No. So if you ask your friends for prayers, why wouldn't you also ask the saints in heaven to pray for you? Note that they do not "intercede" directly for us, they simply pray for us.

We should ask others for their prayers just as we ask the saints to pray for us. It isn't sinful to do so - we aren't worshipping the saints! Protestants often associate prayer solely with worship, since they do not have the mass. As Catholics, we worship God in the Mass - prayer can be worship but should be viewed as conversation with God. When we "pray" to the saints, we simply are asking that the saints pray for our souls. We are weak humans who need all the help we can get!

God bless,
Jay

I agree that prayer is powerful. If we set aside our disagreement that the dead do or do not hear us, shouldn't our prayer time be spent in "conversation" with God and not with people?? Yes, I do agree in prayer with others but I do not pray TO those people.

My feeling is that there was already a "Law" that no human was ever able to follow. That is way God sent his Son, so that if we believe in him we are saved. I think the Cathlolic Church has in a sense created it's own "Law." So many rules and requirements how can anyone follow perfectly?? Like "The Church" thinks God's plan for our salvation wasn't good enough, man had to put his own "Law" in place.

I think it is very sad that some people spend thier entire lives feeling unable to be close to God because they can not live up to what the Catholic Church has set in place for them.

Our acception, through faith, of Jesus' death and resurrection have already wiped us clean, which allows us to go directly to God. I have FAITH in God, not a religion, not traditions of men. The focus is taken off God and being in his will, when we are overly concerned with the traditions of man. Bottom line is the Bible never says anything about praying To or Though Mary. Yes, she was blessed by God (as we all are), but our focus should be one the Son, not the mother. AMEN.

God Bless, in Jesus name.
Shelby

Shelby,

I honestly think that you make some good points here. Many Catholics live in a constant state of guilt, always afraid that they will never live up to the standards of God. This is of Satan, a way of preventing us from doing good before we even try, since we can never be as perfect as God.

However, we must remember that Christ commanded us to be perfect even as He was perfect. The entire books of James and Hebrews are replete with exhortations to holiness, a standard that is undoubtedly very severe.

It is true that Christ offers us His death as a free gift; His grace is poured out on us before we offer Him anything. But in accepting this grace we must (i.e. not an option) offer our lives back to Him as a "living sacrifice." Christ said to "count the cost." Paul states that we should "work out our salvation in fear and trembling." Guilt is not the answer. We will stumble along the way; that is inevitable. The answer is a daily renewed committment to pursuing holiness and a willingness to endure the penances and sufferings in our flesh (Christ commands us to "pick up our cross daily"). We should also remember that when we sin, there are consequences that we must accept as discipline to our soul. The Bible states that anyone who is a child of God will receive discipline at His hand.

The Protestant faith in general, having been cut off from the Church for 500 years, has dengenerated into a "name it, claim it" theology that is directly opposed to all of Scripture. James is very clear that this idea is false; we must act out our faith, not merely profess it. Suffering is an inherent part of being a Christian. If one thing is clear, it is that we must suffer with Christ and take on His afflictions. Anyone who is not disciplined cannot be called a legitimate child.

As for those guilty Catholics you refer to, there are several things that cause this. First, a failure to use the Sacrament of Confession (or a lack of understanding about the Sacrament). This is God's gift to us for the assurance that our sins committed after baptism are remitted.

Second, persistance in sin. Guilt is the natural consequence of persisting in sin. This is a good type of guilt (just like physical pain) because it tells your soul that something is wrong. After too long in this state without remediation, however, the soul simply shuts down. Our culture is filled with sin, and most people are so numb to it that it doesn't even seem like sin anymore. I could list many examples, but at the risk of offending people I will refrain from doing so in this post. Besides, I myself struggle with so many of them. True repentance is the only remedy.

Third, unwillingness to suffer the consequences of sin. Many people feel guilty and oppressed because they view the disciplines imposed by Christ and His Church as too severe. For instance, the cost of marrying after a divorce is that you may not engage in sexual relations with your spouse; to do so would be adultery. This is a difficult discipline, but adultery is clearly wrong and the Bible teaches that marriage after divorce is indeed adultery. Living in chastity with a spouse is the discipline and natural consequence of the evil that is committed. If you are unwilling (i.e. have no intention) of submitting to this discipline, you will indeed feel guilty. In fact, you may view the prospect as too daunting to even begin submitting. But Christ demands your submission, even if you falter in compliance. You were bought at a price and your life is now His.

Bottom line, however, is that the Church teaches exactly what the Bible demands: holiness. Of course it is a high standard. But that is precisely why Christ died on the cross--so that we could acheive that goal. The law of Christ is love, which is the fulfillment of the law. The problem with Protestant doctrine is that it teaches this to be an easier path. Protestant attitude (if not doctrine) is that you can do whatever you like as long as you say "Sooorrrry God!" But Christ said that love was actually a higher law, and more difficult. Hence, divorce which was once permitted is now forbidden. Hatred is now the equivalent of murder. Christ did not die for us to be lazy. He died so that we could be like Him. The Church requires her flock to pursue that goal. And "you will know them by their fruits."

In Christ,
Dave

P.S. You do "pray" to others in the sense that you say "Mom/dad/sister/brother/friend, would you please pray for me? Let me explain my problem..." That is all we do to the Saints, since we know that they are alive in Christ, they are holy, their prayers are powerful, and they are our elder brothers and sisters. If we cannot take a moment to ask them for help, then neither can you take a momemt to ask your friends and family for help...

I would like to know where exactly in the bible it says that we go to purgoratory when we die i have read the entire bible and never has it even hinted that we go to purgoratory. it clears says that if we trust in our lord as our savioyr and follow him we will go to heaven if we reject him then its hell.

Carol,

Are you a Christian? If so, is your will (right now) absolutely, perfectly aligned with God's? Or do you still sin? I will say more when you respond.

In Christ,
Dave

Sounds like people here are passing judgement to the extreme. Dave, what is the difference right now, between yourself and another right standing chrisitan? I will answer that for you;

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

I would like to know where you are getting your idea about "the protestant say sorrry God". THis is unbelievable. Walking the same path as Christ is impossible. But as CHRISTIANS, its our goal to do so. Its true we will be known by our fruits. I cannot agree with you more. But, that won't matter if you are not Born-Again! You can be the greatest person on earth. But if you don't make the Romans 10:9,10 confession of faith for your salvation. If not than being judged by your fruits will be meaningless. You will never be good enough for heaven;

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

You cannot work your way to heaven. It is a Gift from God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Who are the Saints?
Who are the Priests?
Who are the Kings?

Simon,
I suggest you read the Old Testament passage that Romans 3:23 is citing. "All" in the passage is used in the collective sense, which means you are misinterpreting it. Catholics don't teach that we can work our way to heaven. But works are necessary to salvation - we are saved by faith working in love. See the book of James.

Finally, notice in Acts 2:38, which you cite, that Peter (the pope at that time) requires baptism as well as belief. This supports the Catholic position.

God bless,
Jay

Jay,

I have read the book of James. Very good book, completly inspired.
I believe in baptism. As long as you are at the age of reasoning. In Acts 2:38, I am sure that Peter(who you call the Pope) was talking to adults and not month old babies.

It is good to here that the catholic church doesn't teach that, but being Catholic in my early day's I could swear that it what was taught by the catholic church that I went to. They said be a good person, and everything will be alright.

Also,

All have come short:
Why don't you read Romans's 3:9, 5:12, 3:23, Galations 3:22, Romans 11:32 and the clincher Romans 3:19.

God Bless

Simon

Honor belongs to Mary, and she is called Blessed. So no doubt in this Chrisitan(or protestant)as some would say here, that she is Blessed. How many of us would step up to the plate when approached by an Angel of the Lord. Mary definetly new scripture and knew what was taking place.

God Bless
Simon

Simon,

All have indeed sinned (with certain exceptions). Once we have been "born again", however, we are empowered to put our fleshly nature to death. If you would like, I can cite a boatload of Scripture on this point, but it hardly seems necessary. The Scripture never states anywhere, in any place, at any time, or in any manner that Christians cannot become perfect in this lifetime. That is a lie spewed out by Satan to convince Christians that sin really isn't that bad.

To be sure, we could never become perfect of our own power. Only the grace of God poured out in the sacrifice of Christ Jesus empowers us towards this goal. And boasting is therefore excluded on that ground. Nonetheless, having received that power we Christians now have an obligation to activate it and apply it in our lives, actively participating in being made over in Christ's image. This is a painful and arduous process. That is why the Bible is filled with reference to the joy of suffering, the need to carry the cross, and the death we must inflict on our sinful nature. Each of these invokes the principle of pain. This is what I was talking about when I wrote the "soooorrrry" line. Protestants really have no concept what the Bible is talking about because their idea of becoming like Christ is to a) make the profession of faith, b) do the best you can after that (but don't go too crazy), and c) once you die you will magically be perfect without putting an ounce of energy into change. In other words, not a lot of pain involved here. Yet Jesus tells us we must pick up the cross and follow Him.

Simon, please do not keep saying that salvation is a gift from God. We already agree on that, so you are beating a dead horse. The question is how do you receive that gift? James very clearly tells us that it is by faith and works together, which he implies is really two sides of the same coin. In fact, "faith" is in truth a work; it is an act of the conscience or the will. So even you believe that some sort of "work" is necessary to accept God's gift. One cannot simply say "thanks God" and move on.

But all that is really beside the point when it comes to purgatory. Purgatory has nothing to do with working your way to Heaven; to say otherwise is a monumental act of ignorance. Understand that every soul in purgatory is heaven bound--period! It is simply the process by which our wills are perfectly aligned with God's will. You have wrongfully (and ironically) accused me of being judgmental. Simon, the point of what I am saying is that I (yes, me!!!!) am imperfect. My will remains disordered and not totally aligned with God's. So is yours and probably everyone else's on this website. What if you do not become perfect in this life? God will not let imperfect people into Heaven (note that I am not talking about your past sins, but rather your present proclivity to continue sinning). Where in the Scripture do you find it written that as soon as you die your will, somehow, will be immediately changed so that it is perfectly aligned with God's? It isn't there, Simon. Catholics believe that the period of alignment (if not completed in this life) will be finished when we come into God's radiant presence and His holiness burns away our impurities. We will suffer because this burning love and holiness will be uncomfortable to our disordered will. But when it is done, all that will be left is holiness. That is purgatory, my friend. It is also Biblical.

Please go back and read I Cor. 3:11-15. Paul very clearly refers to people who build on the foundation of Christ (thus, they must be Christians). He then says that the one who builds with gold, silver, etc. will take these things with him (i.e. good works). But, says Paul, he who builds on the foundation with wood, hay, and straw (empty works), it will be burned up. Paul says that Christians will walk through a burning fire on their way to Heaven, and that the fire will test each man's work. Paul also clearly says that both men will be saved, but the one who had built up empty works will suffer loss. Please read the passage and meditate on it.

In Christ,
Dave

The one exception would be Jesus. Born without sin, lived without sin, died and resurrected without sin. The law before Christ was the only guide to live a perfect life.

Having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. (Rom 5:1)

This verse is speaking in the past tense: Having been justified by faith, we have peace with God. Throughout the New Testament, the words perfect and complete are used as synonyms. You may have thought that to be perfect in Christ is to perfect yourself, to perfect what you do to justify yourself as a person, or complete through your own efforts a job that God started but hasn't finished yet. The truth of the gospel is that Christ alone performed Christian perfection when He completed a perfect atonement; everything needed for unjustifiable sinners to be justified. Seeing that you are the righteousness of God in Christ is the only hope you have of becoming complete in Him. Soothing guilt by changing what you do cannot remove the shame (religious, false condemnation) which defiles the conscience.

We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, that we may present every man complete in Christ. (Col 1:28)

At first glance, Christian perfection may sound like a lofty goal, but there is nothing more damaging to the heart than to believe you are incomplete in Christ. There is nothing wrong with wanting to change bad habits or destructive behavior. This is true whether a person is a believer or not. We all need to change—but it is deadly to believe that we can change enough to gain God’s love or acceptance, or that failure to change separates you from God. Your heart, which has seen the righteousness of God revealed through Jesus Christ, knows the truth. You will never be able to change enough, based on your own efforts, to gain God’s acceptance and a clear conscience. It must come by faith in Him.

Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. (1 Tim 1:19)

Doctrines of progressive sanctification, justification, and righteousness defile your conscience because you never do get to the point where you’re good enough. Your hope continues to be deferred while you search for something you can do that will make you better, but you never find it. If even in Christ, our conscience condemns us, then what can ever save us?

We must keep hold onto faith in what Jesus did to gain us right-standing with God (1 Tim 3:9), and keeping hold of this faith actually cleanses our conscience. A clear conscience is the product of an effective covenant. By faith receiving the perfections of Jesus Christ, so that perfection is no longer the attainment of perfect performance but rather the gift of right relationship with God.

If you could separate yourself from God or His approval because of your performance, you would be long gone by now; however, you can be moved away from your hope and your heart will not be established in the grace of God. If you don’t continue in faith (believing in Jesus Christ’s own righteousness within you) your faith will be distracted and your hope will be deferred. You will forget who you are in Christ. You will keep finding fault in your fellowship with God and your heart will be established in condemnation. If your heart is established in condemnation it will continue to magnify its faults and place them between you and God. If your heart is not established in grace, you will fall from grace into legalism as you move your hope into a false belief system that lacks faith. You will suffer shipwreck in regard to your faith. Watch over your heart with all diligence. Your heart can be steadfastly established in righteousness only by being established with grace.

That was a great study in typology DAve.. an othrs....

The last one that I heard this morning in Mass came from Genesis:

Genesis 3:
------------
15: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

20: And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living

There is no question that this is speaking of Mary, sa the one thru whom the seed came and crushed the head of satan....

Thus, MAry is the Second Eve just as Christ was the second Adam...

However, if you follow, Adam called her Eve, the mother of all the living...

So To, Chrsit looked at John and said "behold your mother"

AS a scriptural witness, we see he type follow again... AS Eve was the mother of all the living, MAry is the mother of all those in Christ, (whether you are catholic or not, that don't matter, recognition does't change relationship)

This was an area I was battling with the most and God has sent me sufficient witness in the most peculiar ways to help me understand this....

The deepest mysteries of God are all in the bible... we all need to understand that and believe it. What the catholic church does is NOT create dogma, but rather, dogma is revealed to her thrut eh pages of scripture, thru mysteries hid from teh view of most. This is one that once studied, youcome away in awe..

(if the subject matter was anything but "Mary", our protestant brethren would jump at the typology as such a great revelation. I know so cuz I was one for many years before my recent return back to the RCC)

God Bless...

Carmine

Thanks for the comment and little bit of testimony, Carmine.

In Christ,
Dave

I have a few things to say.

I am a former Catholic, former Hare Krishna, former atheist, and now and forever born-again Christian when i was 15, I'm 18 now.

I am not Protestant, living on faith alone is not Protestant tradtion, its from God's Holy and inerrant Word.

I love Mary like I love king David and Noah and all the Bibical figures because they have all taught me something, God SHOWED it to me, and they all lead right back to my Lord Jesus.

I don't think Mary has any pull in Heaven. Mary's grace Catholic's pray about is a result of her faithfulness to God, not to herself.

Mary has had devine revelation just like Noah, Paul, and a lot of the wonderful brothers and sisters in the Bible. They obeyed the voice of God and His commands.

It was interesting when Jesus said, "You must be born from above (or born again) to enter the Kingdom of Heaven." (John 3:3)

That is a commandment of Jesus. This is a commandment that Jesus is saying we can get into Heaven as a result of His blood shed on Calvary.

we broke all the commandments, or most of them.

We all lied at one point, stolen something inclduing the Lord's name in vain, had lustful thoughts.

I don't know how many confessionals cancell out paul when he said, "all men have sinned and fallen short of God's glory."

Falling short leads us to hell. its not about how good you are, you and I need Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Just ask yourselves if you are "good enough for Heaven"

Then look at the 10 commandments found in exodus 20 and have an honest look about your lives.

Then the Book of John chapter 3 and Pslam 51.

realize you're a sinner headed for hell, accept Jesus Christ's pardon for hell, and His rising of the dead was enough, you will be saved!

And then read your Bible carefull (acts 17) and obey it. I fall short of doing it, but I haven't lost my salvation.

Its a work in progress but we have a Savior who will give us discernment and guidance.

You're all sincere people, i love you, and I'm praying for you all.

God bless
Andrew

Andrew,
A couple of things. First, I hope you read the comment thread, in which we addressed whether "ALL" have really sinned or whether this is a misinterpretation of Paul. At some point I'll write a post specifically addressing this error, but suffice it to say that it is caused when those who don't know the Old Testament are interpreting the New Testament.

Next, Jesus also said "If you do not eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you." Think about that long and hard, since you left the only Church that does this (the Catholic church). Also, ask yourself, "Which Church did Jesus found in Matthew 16:18?" I recommend you keep reading through our site.

It's interesting that you cite John 3:3, since most protestant churches no longer believe this - they believe baptism is merely symbolic, which contradicts Scripture. Only the Catholic church teaches that you must be baptized.

Finally, confession involves confessing your sins, which requires that you actually sin. Clearly you misunderstand confession terribly. Jesus gave His apostles the ability to forgive sins. In early Acts, you see that the apostles replace Judas and pass on his "chair" - this not only happened with Judas, but with all apostles. This is apostolic succession.

Again, I challenge you to read through some of our posts. Feel free to comment as much as you'd like - we'll pray that you return home to the Catholic church.

God bless,
Jay

Jay,

I have been reading the comments from everyone and it is apparent to me that there is a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation from both sides. We should all (including myself) faithfully study the scriptures (old and new) and not add to it or interpret it beyond what it actually states. I am not suggesting being legalistic about it but if Jesus said "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" that is what it means. When the bible states that "Wisdom shouts in the streets" we should know that it is speaking metaforically and that wisdom is not a real person in the street shouting. We should not "read into" anything; that only confuses everything because we, as mere men, are imperfect and therefore our interpretations may at times be imperfect. If only men could live as Christ lived. It would be paradise (literally).
Having said this, if in the bible it says "ALL" then it means "ALL". If ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God then All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Only God Himself is without sin. To say that ALL doeasn't really mean ALL is to change scripture. To correct some misinformation, the Catholic church is NOT the only church to participate in the eating of the "flesh" and the drinking of the "blood". Protestant churches, those that are truely in line with God's word, also do this. Second, the "CHURCH" is not a religion or a building. All believer's in Christ make up the Church. To say that the Roman Catholic church is the true church is to rewrite history. After Christ reascended into heaven Christian believers met and worshipped in people's houses not churches (the first churches were not built until the year 261. Does this mean that the church did not exist at this time since no churches were built at that time? Also, the Roman Catholic church did not come into existence until a few hundred years after Christ died after the Roman emperor Constantine embraces Christianity. Previously, the Romans persecuted the Christians. Prior to Rome adopting Christianity as their religion believer's in Christ were Jews and Gentiles that were called CHRISTIANS. You see to me, Christianity is not a religion but it is the Truth of the world as revealed to us by God. To call Peter the first pope is to go back in history and rewrite it as he never called himnself the pope nor did Jesus call him the pope. It is like going back in history and calling Martin Luther a nun. Martin Luther was a Roman Catholic friar. Peter was one of the great disciples of Jesus in whom Jesus entrusted to bring the message of the gospel to the world.
Also, to say that protestants don't believe John 3:3 anymore is also false and to say that baptism is symbolic of our death and resurrection with our Lord Jesus Christ is very biblical.
I look forward to the day that Jesus returns to reunite His church.

May God bless all of you always (and I do mean ALL),
Ernie

Jesus loved his mother very much Jesus the son of God could not be into a women who was with sin, any sin Mary was carrying the New Covenant(Like The Ark of the Covenant of the Old-Testament.) So she would have to be free of Sin in order to do this. God allowed this because you are right Mary on her own has no power to be sinless but by God's grace and will she was made free of Sin. Many protestants pray the Rosary and to Mary because they have found alot of biblical evidence for it. Yes we should pray to God but God also gives us the help of the saints and Mary and why wouldn't he. He will do everything he can so that we may be with him in Heaven. Pray in American language means to worship pray in the English language means to ask. When we pray to Mary we ask her to pray for us and to interceed for us( She is in Heaven and was Jesus' Mother so don't you think she would want to help us to know and accept her son.) Not everyone is blessed or a saint, Hitler believed in God and Jesus I don't think anyone would call him blessed or a saint,the KKK of the 1920's and 50's killed Black people,Catholics and Jews all in the name of Jesus(They preached God's word and knew the bible like the back of there hand.) But were they saints or blessed. Many dead Protestants are sitting in a place they did not believe in but do now, I'll put up biblical evidence for purgatory later. Yours In Christ Kevin
I shall say a rosary for all of you.

Kevin:
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That includes Mary. It includes Moses, Joseph, David, Daniel, all of God's chosen prophets, me, you, everyone in the history of mankind except Jesus who was God incarnate. There is no evidence that Mary was sinless. There is no evidence that Mary remained a perpetual virgin. All the evidence points to the contrary. The bible mentions that Jesus had brothers and sisters. To state otherwise is to deny the truth of Scripture. It appears to me that there is this need to maintain Mary's reputation spotless to justify the Roman Catholic views and traditions of Mary. People, it is not a bad thing to have sex and give birth to children within a marriage of a man (Joseph) and a woman (Mary). It is something created by God from the begining. It does not make Mary any less blessed. Where does it say that Mary had to be sinless in order to carry Jesus in her womb?
As for "many protestants" praying the rosary and to Mary, I personally don't know of any so I can't comment on it. It may be true but it certainly isn't because of "biblical evidence" for it because there is none.
You also mentioned "saints". Why does the Roman Catholic "church" feel the need to make people into saints and with what authority? It is a misuse of the biblical definition of a saint. According to the bible, a saint is a believer or follower of Christ. All who follow Christ are termed saints. It does not mean they are perfect or sinless or holier than any other which is what man has changed the definition into.

To compare Hitler or the KKK to Christians is extremely irresponsible because these people, although they claimed to be Christians, were obviously not true Christians. They twisted God and the bible for there own purposes or agendas. I can say that I am a blender; but just because I say I am does not make me one. Hitler was no more a christian than Bush is a Democrat. And since he was not a true follower of Christ he cannot be called a saint (from a biblical or Roman Catholic viewpoint). Just because you know the scriptures does not mean you trust in God. Satan knows scripture as well. Big deal. It means nothing if you don't live it.
I look forward to your posting of biblical proof of purgatory. I don't think you will find any. At least not credible ones.

May God Bless you always,
Ernie

You obvously don't know history the KKK was a christian organization(I was merly saying the protestant idea that everyone is a saint is obviously wrong because the KKK did believe and follow Jesus Christ as matter of fact they justified the killing and Harassing of Catholics and Jews with Christ even Hitler killed Catholics such as the Blessed Father Kolbe from Poland.) You people are blind nothing can convince you when your Dead you will see. I can find it in scripture and in the King James Bible(I found alot of our Catholic Doctrine in the Protestant Bible.) First they say it's not in the bible we find it and then they say thats not what it means or call are bible wrong, we can never win. So i'll put up biblical evidence for mary from both Catholic and Protestant Canon later. Though you can't produce any evidence that mary had sinned and brothers and sisters is how they refered to distant relatives and believers back then. So nothing in scripture speaks against Mary's perpetual virginity, oh yeah Billy Graham prays the Rosary. Yes there is as a matter of fact are opening lines of the hail mary are from scripture and by me praying the rosary I felt inspired to read scripture and found alot of evidence for praying to Mary and the Saints. And How about our Catholic Doctrine of Making Saints is a biblical doctrine and put that up to. Though while you say May Godbless you always I feel a hatred in your Heart towards Catholics(Like it or not it is Hate when you persecute and attack us as being wrong even though we have the same God and Savior.) If you or any other Protestant doesn't want to pray to Mary or believe in Purgatory fine but don't hate us because we do. Thats what finally led me to believe that the Catholic Church was God's church because it is constantly being persecuted for it beliefs by both Protestants(Mormons,Jehovah's Witnesses, and Seventh Day Adventist don't like us either.) and Liberals( Just look at comedians Bill Maher and Lenny Bruce and philosphers like the Marquis De Sade.) I would be more worried if no one was attacking our church. Though I like what you said when you said even Satan reads scripture and it means nothing if you don't live it truer words have never been spoken. I'll give you E-mail so we can continue this discussion without running up the comment thing on here. So remember God and The Catholic Church will always love you even if you don't love it. My Email is Interpol_0586@hotmail.com lets discuss are disagreements and not argue about them and hate each other for them.

Kevin:
Let me make one thing perfectly clear: I do not hate you or Roman Catholics in general. I am sorry that that was the impression you got from my previous posting. To provide you with some of my background, I was raised in the Roman Catholic religion and the vast majority of my family, whom I love deeply, are Roman Catholics. I no longer attend catholic mass and consider myself a Christian and I have been persecuted for my faith by my very own family. I do not hate. Anyone who hates his own brother is in danger of judgement. This is from Scripture. I do not hate you my brother. My questions regarding Roman catholic traditions and doctrine were very sincere and from the heart. I was looking for answers to those questions I asked. The questions were not asked to offend or persecute the Roman Catholic faith. These have been questions I have had for years even when I was "practicing" the Roman catholic religion. It is why I have been posting on this website.

Now regarding your last post, I never claimed to be a historian but I am not ignorant of history. I never denied that the KKK or Hitler claimed to be Christians. They did. But as I stated before, does that make them Christians? Using my previous example, if I claim to be a blender does that make me a blender? Mormons consider themselves to be Christians. But are they? From my research of Mormonism I do not think so. History does not always reveal the truth my brother. Even though the KKK claimed to be a Christian organization and are locked in the pages of history as such do you consider the murder of innocent people on the basis of their skin color "following Jesus Christ"? I am pretty sure your answer to that question is no. What the KKK did and stood for went completely against the teachings of Jesus. I hope you are understanding my point.

Also, the definition of saints I mentioned previously is the definition as described in the bible not a "protestant idea" as you referred to. It is how the bible describes a "saint". According to the bible, to be considered a saint you have to be a follower of Jesus Christ and as I tried to explain above the KKK and Hitler do not qualify because their deeds did not match their words.
Regarding the sins of Mary. Reason and logic tells us that it is impossible to prove a negative. So no one can prove that Mary did not sin because that would be to prove a negative which is not possible. And although there is no direct biblical proof that Mary did sin, scripture tells us that "all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God". It does not say "all have sinned except Mary". The bible does not directly mention the sins of all people in the bible because it does not have to because everyone is a sinner and it is understood. This topic as is being discussed has no conclusion. I can't prove that Mary sinned, you can't prove that she didn't. But in the end it is really not important because our focus, dedication, and worship is not supposed to be on Mary. As blessed as she was, Mary did not die on the cross for the forgivness of our sins. I love Mary as the mother of Jesus on Earth and how she humbled herself before God and did the will of God but she is not the object of my faith. This is in no way intended to be a disrespect to her or Roman catholics. It is only meant to provoke thought and express my belief.
And yes brothers and sisters was used for distant relatives and believers but it was also used to refer to brothers and sisters as immediate family members. Again, does it matter if Mary did not have any other children and she remained a virgin her whole life?

As for Billy Graham praying the rosary, I don't know Billy Graham personally, and truthfully, I don't care what Billy Graham does because I don't follow him. He did not die on the cross for my sins either. This may sound harsh but it is not intended to be disrespectful to anyone. I respect Billy Graham for what he has done for the Lord as I respect many Roman catholics such as Mother Teresa and the late Pope John Paul for their service to God.
I do not have any issues with people praying the rosary. If praying the rosary inspires you to read the scriptures that is great. But Jesus does warn against repetitive prayer (see Matthew 6:7)

You mention that you have a lot of biblical proof for Roman catholic traditions and doctrine but do not provide them. I hope you can provide them and I look forward to reading them. All I want is the truth. The Truth as God sees it. If I am in the wrong then I want to know because I want to be in the right when it comes to the things of God and my salvation. The truth will stand up to the most extensive questioning and scrutiny even if it hurts to have your beliefs challenged. The bible says that we should examine ourselves to see that we are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).

May God bless you always,
Ernie

Ernie lets talk via email. I can better answere your questions and objections there are many repetitive prayers in the Bible I am glad you love me and not hate. Rosary comes from Latin and means Garland of Roses(Remember God did Great things for Mary because she said yes to the will of God)Luke 1. 28 and Luke 1. 41-43, Luke 1. 48-49,John 19.25: Near the cross of Jesus, stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing near by, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27 and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on the disciple took her into his home.
Revelation 12. 1-6. Since Mary was holding the New Covenant she would have to been clean of sin, just as the first Ark was perfect how much more would the second Ark carring God's Son have to have been. In Matthew 6. 7-8 is the passage you are refering to on Jesus warning against vain repetitious prayer though not all repetition is vain just take for example Revelation 4. 8 KJV "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night saying, Holy,Holy,Holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." Also here is another repitious pray that is pleasing to God Psalm 136 and lets not forget Matthew 26.44 which tells of Jesus saying the same prayer for the third time with the same words. So God is not against Repitious prayer. Oh you if you do know ancient Jewish idioum customs then you would know that brothers refered to distant releatives or most likely cousins. There is a passage that refers to Jesus as the Son of David it's Matthew 1. 1 KJV "The Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the son of Abraham." As you can see it refers to David being the Son of Abraham but it also says that Jesus Christ is the son of David. So what does he mean when he says this Ernie. On the idea of does it matter that Mary was a virgin all her life yes it does because it would prove the Catholic Doctrine of Mary's Perpetual Virginity. I'll answere more in depth on Catholic Doctrine in the bible if you email me. Did you know that Jews believe in a place that one must go to when they die in ordered to be purified so that they may see the world to come, So pre-christian Jews believed in a place of purification(Purgatory) and so did Post-Christian Jews(They still do and they have a prayer for the dead.) This probably won't matter to you but it at least gives you some Idea that Catholics are not the only one's that believe in place of purification(The Orthodox Churches do as well.) I put the parable of the KKK and Hitler to illustrate a point that is can you murder and still follow Christ(If one just follows Christ then they are saints as you said.) Still believe him to believe your Lord and Savior and do what they did.

Yours in Christ Kevin Gibbs it's good discussing things with you Ernie.

Also and please don't take this the wrong way don't be ignorant of the world around you Christ has no use for Ignorance(From the I don't care if it's not savior born or Savior raised department) There is whole history to Christianity and The Bible, God gave us a heart but he also gave us a brain.

Kevin:
I will e-mail you as you have requested but I wish to continue our discussion on this website as our dialogue may be of benefit to other people who read it. There may be other people who have similar questions or our discussion may give others useful information or clarity on the things of God. At least that is my hope.

To begin backwards from your previous post and, hopefully, put an end to the KKK/Hitler analogy, people who claim to be followers of Christ yet do not follow His commandments are what the bible refers to as "wolves in sheeps clothing". How can you say that they are true followers and believers of Christ and "do what they did"? Everything they stood for was evil. Even the non-religious, secular world would tell you that. What they claimed to be is of no merit when what poured out of their hearts was from the devil.

The scripture you cited (Luke 1:28,Luke 1:41-43, Luke 1:48-49)are all great references about how Mary was favored by God and blessed. No one is denying that Mary was blessed, favored ,and indeed, very special in the eyes of God. I have never had any issues with Mary being blessed and favored as this is what the bible tells us of her. She is special in my eyes as well. But these verses do not deal with or prove the practice of praying to and worshiping of Mary. That is quite a jump from Mary is blessed and favored to her being the object of someone's worship and prayers. Again, did Mary die on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins?

Revelations 12:1-6 is a description, a metaphor of Jerusalem not Mary. The 12 stars are refering to the 12 tribes of Israel.

I do not believe that any of the scriptures you mention support the Roman Catholics Doctrine regarding Mary.

As for John 19:25, I'll admit that when I first read that part of scripture I did not understand what Jesus meant or what He was doing. However, let me make some key points.

1. John was "the disciple that Jesus loved" as is mentioned in the scriptures
2. Yes, Jesus is refered to as the Son of David which means, Kevin, that he was a direct descendant of David as was prophesied in the Old Testament.
3. Yes, in Jewish customs brothers refered to distant relatives (cousins) BUT in Jewish customs it also refered to your immediate family member brother.
4. The bible describes how Jesus' own family members and brothers, like James, did not believe that He was the messiah at first. (it was not until after His resurrection that they believed)
5. Jesus considered his disciples His brothers and often referred to them as His brothers.
6. Therefore, when Jesus, being the oldest male in the family, was dying He entrusted His mother Mary to one of His "brothers" (the disciple whom He loved = John) as was the Jewish custom.
Why did He not leave Mary to His real brothers? Since His real brothers did not believe He was the Messiah and did not follow Him, Jesus, I am sure, considered His disciples as His true brothers and not His earthly brothers.

As for repititious prayers, you are correct in pointing out that there are examples in the bible of people, including Jesus, praying the same things repeatedly. It was VAIN repitious prayers that Jesus warned against. Praying the same things over and over again without any meaning or purpose just to appear religious. Because at that time, as Jesus pointed out after His warninig, there were many Pharisees who would pray in the street corners to be seen by men and pray vain repetitive prayers to appear "religious".

Psalm 136 is not a repetitive prayer. It is repetitive in structure but not in what is being said. It is a prayer of thanks, thanking God for all those things mentioned.

As for purgatory (which I did not mention but will comment on) you refer to Jewish belief of "a place that one must go to when they die in ordered to be purified so that they may see the world to come"; and that "pre-christian Jews believed in a place of purification(Purgatory) and so did Post-Christian Jews. They still do and they have a prayer for the dead." I can't verify this but will take your word on it at this time. However, let me ask you this question: Many Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Does that mean that they are correct in this belief? Are you saying that Jesus was not the Messiah because the Jewish people don't believe He was? It is a weak argument to say that just because another particular group believes in something that that is validation of that belief.

Kevin, I also enjoy discussing these issues with you a great deal, however, you say not to take your last comment the wrong way so I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't mean it in a bad way. But don't assume you know me and know who I am or where I've been and have me all figured out. I am not ignorant of the world around me. However, don't underestimate God. Christ can use anyone for His purposes. Does not the bible say that the dumb will be made wise and that the wise will be made fools? God can use the ignorant to accomplish His will. God doesn't need our intellect He demands our devotion and obedience. I have studied and continue to study and learn about the history of Christianity, the bible, and the Church. It is an ongoing process. I do not believe things blindly. Having been raised in the Roman catholic religion I have first hand knowledge that many Roman catholics believe the church hierarchy blindly and forsake God's word for religious traditions. Traditions in and of themselves are not wrong unless they go against the Word of God.
I look forward to discussing more things via e-mail.

May God Bless you always,
Ernie

Ernie I was merely pointing out that Purgatory was not a Catholic Invention(Do you believe in the King James Bible.) No I don't know you but hearing you talk on this board doesn't disprove the fact that you might be ignorant yes the bible does say he will make the fools see(See, not continue on believing to see.) Jesus gave us Mary at the Cross you can't prove that it meant the otherway around since the Bible tells us that the church not individuals are the final word on scripture. Yes if you knew the Bible well then you would know Jesus was warning against vain repetious prayer(Not Repetious Prayer coming from the heart.) Jerusalem is not refered to as Queen Jerusalem did not give birth to our Savior.(I've heard that argument before(Remember The Church not you are the final word on Scripture.) Do we worship Mary no, we Pray and in the English language Pray means ask not to Worship. Nothing in Scripture speaks against this(I know that it is says that there is only one mediator between God and Man and that was Jesus, Mary is just another way to Jesus.) Remember Jesus loves alot so he will give us all the help we need. Remember ST. Paul tells us to adhere to both written and unwritten tradition. I'll show if you have an open heart about it( if not then no amount of scripture is going to convince you.) I don't accept things blindly and I don't believe you do either. Although the very thing you believe in the Bible is probably the very thing you least understand otherwise you would still be Catholic. Remeber Purgatory is not a Catholic invention it wasn't until Protestants came along that anyone would think to deny it.

Oh to answere your question on why Jesus just didn't give his Mother to all his disciples because he was the only diciple there remember the others deserted him. You are right when you say Mary did not die for our sins(We as the Catholic Church have always taught that there is one Savior and that is Jesus Christ.) Though that doesn't mean you should just throw her by the way side either. I have enjoyed these talks to Ernie may God bless you and your family.

Chances are Good Jesus believed in Purgatory.(Since the Jews believe in the Place of Purification.He taught in the Synaguoges.)

Kevin:
Because someone does not believe the same things that you do you call them ignorant? Sounds a little self-righteous and arrogant, don't you think? I would not call you ignorant. Misled and blind, maybe, but not ignorant. Webster's dictionary defines ignorant as "lacking education or knowledge" and defines knowledge as "having ability to know facts and information" I think you have the information but lack the understanding and have been blinded to many truths.

Jesus gave JOHN Mary when He was on the cross. He did not give US Mary because we were not there. He basically told John "look, I can't be here physically anymore here is your mother now, take care of her and also told Mary "look, here is your son now take care of him now". I don't know what you mean when you say "you can't prove that it meant the otherway around". I never stated that.

Once again you are incorrect when you state "the Bible tells us that the church not individuals are the final word on scripture". What the bible states is that no "PROPHECY of scripture" is of private interpretation (2 Peter 1:17-21).
In other words the prophets did not speak on their own, by their own will but were LEAD BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. It was refering to believing in the prophets message because that message was not their own message but God's very own message because he (Peter) heard God speak with his own ears when he was with Jesus on the mountain. And it is that same HOLY SPIRIT that leads us into all truth as Jesus said. It is the HOLY SPIRIT that is the final authority on scripture not the Roman catholic church or any other church for that matter. The "church" is a body of believers. The church is the body of Christ not the head of it. Jesus is the head of the church. The head has the brains. The brains of the living church has the final authority. Not the hand, or the foot, or the fingers of the church. That is who the believers are. The body parts. This includes everyone in the heirarchy of the Romaan catholic church. Don't forget who we are. Don't mix it up and think we as the church are at the head. Also, the Roman catholic church always assumes that when the bible mentions "the church" it is refering strictly and only to the Roman catholic church. But that isn't who the bible is refering to when it mentions the church.

Since I do know my bible I already agreed with you that it is vain and empty repititious prayers that are the issue. I was only trying to say to be careful that your prayers don't become vain repititious prayers. I believe that it often happens when someone in the Roman catholic religion is told that they have to or should be praying the rosary. Because then the rosary prayer is an obligation not a willing, personal way to communicate to God.

Mary is not worshipped by Roman catholics you say? Webster's dictionary defines worship as "reverence for a sacred object; high esteem or devotion for a person; to revere; attend a religious service". Don't you think that Roman catholics hold Mary in "high esteem" and are devoted to her? That is worship, my friend. Having said this, no one has ever advocated "just throwing her by the wayside" as you mentioned. C'mon, Kevin.

Queen Jerusalem? What are you talking about, Kevin? Revelations 12:1-6 is a METAPHOR for Jerusalem with the 12 stars representing the 12 tribes of Israel. And how the Savior would come out of the nation of Israel. It is not refering to a real woman. Or do you think the next few verses is refering to a Real red dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns?

As for Jesus believing in Purgatory that is another assumption which you often tend to do. Who are we to even try to understand what Jesus "believed". Remember, Jesus did not have to believe, HE KNEW. Again your argument for purgatory is weak. Remember that Jesus taught many things in the synagouges that went against what the Jews (Pharisees) believed or taught at that time. The Pharisees often misinterpreted scripture and Jesus would correct them. If the Jews were incorrect in one of their beliefs then it is OK for you to do the same? Again, many Jews and Jewish leaders at that time did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

May God bless you always,
Ernie

Jesus read from the Greek Septuagint Bible(Evidence strongly suggest it.) We talked about people like you in my Old-Testament class here at college people like you will deny facts in order to get there point of view across and if the facts show other wise they are ignored or said thats not how it goes(You say it's not in the bible we find it and then you say thats not what it means. We as the Catholic Church will never win and we will never be right in your eyes.) When Mary appears she appears with the sun at her feet and she is a queen alot like the book of revelation describes. That passage does not refer to Israel or Jerusalem it refers to a queen who gives birth to a man who will rule all nations this sounds like Jesus and who gave birth to Jesus Mary(Mary is a queen and that description fits Mary not Jerusalem) it's all there but you won't except it( you will say that is not what it means or represent). All history points to the Catholic Church only an idiot would fail to see it.

A women who could talk to the souls in Purgatory once asked them why so many people leave the Catholic Church and they told her it was because they had been given so much truth they have a hard time handling it. Many protestants who denied Purgatory are sitting in a place they did not believe to exist(Many of them will sit there for along time because of people like you saying it all Catholic BS.) This won't convince you I know and thats why I haven't put up any biblical evidence for because it would be pointless(If there wasn't I and the Catholic Church would not have found it.) Many people who were smart and had an open mind researched the Catholic Church and became Catholic now this may not mean anything to you but it means alot to me. Whats wrong with believing in Purgatory remember the Bible says nothing unclean can enter heaven isn't purgatory a place of purification, I Suggest you take a religious class at a secular university so you can the full story on Christianity and not just one point of view be it Catholic or Protestant.

And As for the Jews being incorrect(Jesus Was a Jew) The Jews were the one's who started are Christian Church(Early Christians prayed for there dead.) In the Old testament days this place of purification was sanctioned by God why would it just disappear in my opinion it would still help and also what in the world gave protestants the right to say it doesn't exist( What would you do if you died and found out it did exist. Would you try to tell God there is no biblical evidence for it.) Remember since you rejected the Catholic Church( Chances are good God is not going say to you well done for turning away from the Harlot Church.) God will tell you why did you reject my church and you will say it is not your church it has false doctrines in it that are not of the bible and God will show you wear they were and the times you told the Catholics that is not what they mean. Now for me If I did die and find out that the Catholic Church is wrong I would not argue with God but throw myself at his mercy but remember that the chances are just as Good as us being wrong as they are for you being wrong. Let us both remember that. May God help you to understand and may he continue Bless you.
Yours In Christ Kevin

But I guess we must continue on as Jesus did.

May he help me to understand as well.

Remember there is nothing in the Bible that disproves the existence of Purgatory.

Kevin:
Be very careful with your thoughts and what is in your heart.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:21-22 "You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgement: But I say to you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgement: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: BUT WHOSOEVERSHALL SAY, YOU FOOL, SHALL BE IN DANGER OF HELL FIRE." (emphasis added). Why do you call those people who do not believe the same things you do idiots (fools)? I think you should repent because you may be in danger of hell fire. These are not my words but the words of the One you call Lord!
And what's with the reference of "Catholic BS"? I find your use of language offensive.

Are you saying that you take Revelations 12:1-6 literally? That Mary is actually standing on top of the sun and the moon? IT IS A METAPHOR!!!
It appears to me that it is refering to the nation of Israel that gave birth to the Messiah (Jesus refered to as the man child later on in verse 5). But I could be wrong. I freely admit that I may be wrong. Because, then again, what do I know I'm just an idiot, right?

You continue to babble about your proof for purgatory yet fail to produce any biblical evidence because according to you "it would be pointless". If you have truth give it up. Don't keep it for yourself. If you have scripture that reveals the truth about purgatory you should let everyone know about it. If the bible speaks about purgatory I will believe it. I have always been open to the truths of the bible. Having said this, isn't the blood of Christ sufficient for purification? You are right the bible does say that no unclean thing will enter heaven. But we are made clean, "white as snow" as the bible puts it, by the blood of the perfect Lamb. The blood of Christ cleanses us of all unclean things. Why would we then need to go to a place called purgatory to be purified (cleaned). It does not make any sense from a biblical point of view. According to you, God says that he is sending His Son so that our sins may be forgiven by the shedding of His blood and we can be cleansed of all unrighteousness and made to be white as snow, then He says, but before you enter heaven go to this place to be purified because you are still unclean. Kevin, answer this question in all honesty:
Wasn't Christ's sacrifice sufficient?

Why would I want to go study religion in a secular college when the secular world hates God and would twist the truth of scripture? It is well known that many professors from secular institutions are liberal and deny the truth of scripture. I have seen it for myself. No thanks. I would go to the Vatican to study scripture before I went to a secular institution to do it.

I have already thrown myself at the mercy of God but not because I don't agree with the Roman catholic church's doctrine but because I am a sinner and deserve His wrath to come upon me. To suggest that I, or anyone else, would reason with God when we die is absurd. But I thank Almighty God that He has provided a way for us to be saved and I thank Jesus for having saved me from the wrath and judgement that is to come.

You are again correct when you state that there is nothing in the bible to disprove the existence of purgatory (except maybe the reasoning I stated above). However, in logic and in any court I can't prove a negative. It is impossible to prove that something never happened. It is up to you to provide the burden of proof for your claims.

May God bless you always,
Ernie

Ernie we'll never understand no matter what I say You need to get the full story on all of Christianity(Talking to you I know you don't know jack about it.) People who have studied the full story on religion have a much better respect for the Catholic Church then when they went in. It's not up to me to do nothing and it is not up to you to do nothing either but just remember fot both of us that we have to open to each other side to see what we both see. Though are you an idiot from what I see I don't know maybe you are maybe you aren't. Remeber Judgment will not be nice for anyone even those who are saved and neither you nor I can be certain we are saved. Many people are trying to lead people out of the Catholic Church.

Though in all honesty I don't care what religion you are all I want is for people to understand why we as all christians do the things we do be it Catholic or Protestant and not go around telling people they are wrong or that they are going to hell(I've been guilty of this as have3 you on the telling people there wrong part.) If you are happy were you are then I am happy for you and wish you the best but I would like you to understand the Catholic Church just a little bit more then you do(I too try to work toward understanding as well.) You too Ernie be careful because you may not hate me or any of the Catholic faithfull but I feel you do hate the Church itself but even if you never come back to it try and at least understand it. Though in my honest opinion the Catholic Church is just doing what Jesus told it to do and thats why everyone thinks were wrong(Many even dispise us just look at Former Catholics For Christ.) though that is just my opinion. Talk to you later Ernie
Yours In Christ Kevin Gibbs

P.S. Yes it was but if I kill someone and die and stand before God with that on my soul what then. To Kevin: Don't worry about Ernie. To Ernie: Don't worry about Kevin, And BS is just a nice way of putting into words what you think about the Church. No one is certain until that are saved until they stand before God to presume so one would be guilty of presumption

I meant to add this to my last comment I posted today sorry if the BS word offended you.
Yours In Christ Kevin Gibbs

Kevin:
There you go again, insisting on the name calling. Why do you resort to calling me an idiot just because you can't defend your point of view. Talk is cheap. You can't give any biblical evidence for purgatory so you resort to name calling (saying that I am an idiot) and then saying that it's not up to you to prove anything. Grow up. I think you have a lot of maturing to do, my friend.

How can you say that no one can be certain if they are saved?
1 John 5:13 states: "These things have I written to you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may KNOW that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God." (emphasis added). That you may KNOW. Did you read that, Kevin? KNOW! Not maybe you have eternal life; not perhaps you have it; not that you may think you have eternal life; not maybe you have eternal life. SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW!!!!! The problem with you is that you make claims and discuss things, but you don't even truly believe in what you say or what you are trying to defend. God made a promise to all of humanity. He promised that if you repent of your sins, believe and trust in His Son Jesus, you will have eternal life. To say that you are not certain when God has promised it is to call God a liar.

I don't hate the Roman catholic church despite what you may think. And, again, your derrogatory comments about me thinking the Roman catholic church is "BS" only displays your immaturity and use of filthy language. I am only interested in the Truth. You have never heard me bash the Roman catholic church for no reason or make up lies against the Roman catholic church, or say the Roman catholic church is wrong on a certain issue when they are right, or say that a protestant church is right on a certain issue when they are wrong. All I care about is finding out the truth about the things of God. There are things about protestant churches or protestant denominations that are wrong and are an abomination to the Lord. I have never, ever proclaimed that protestantism is right and catholicism is wrong in a blind, general sense. There is no question that both the Protestant denominations and the Roman catholic church are right some of the times and wrong some of the times. You appear to defend the catholic religion blindly, no matter what, even if it goes against the bible (and thus cannot be right)on a particular issue. To me Christianity is not a religion it is the everlasting truth. To you it appears to be just a religion. I understand the Roman catholic religion and why catholics do what they do. I was once a catholic myself. But just because I understand it doesn't make it true. What I believe isn't true because I believe it, I believe it because it is true.

May God bless you always,
Ernie

PS: By the way, although this may be hard for someone to hear, if someone does not beleive and trust in Jesus and is born again when they die then they are going to hell. This may offend you but it is the truth. This is not my personal opinion but the words of Jesus Himself. And unless people begin to realize the seriousness of their sins and that they have offended God by their transgressions of the Law then they will not see the need to repent. Until unrepentent sinners realize that the wrath of God abides on them and that they will have to face God on the day of judgement and that hell awaits them if they do not repent then they will not flee to the cross.

I read all the posts on this website. I grew up Catholic and 1 year ago I changed my religion to nothing, just following these christian tv stations, went to a baptist church, a christian named church and was lost. I did not know what to do, I did not know who to believe or what to hear. I struggled for months. Wouldn't go outside much, constantly praying, helping people, did not want to be around people who were negative, thinking it would break me. I read and studied the Bible for months non-stop.

I became a hermit, I knew for some reason I was doing good becuase I stopped sinning, my life changed, it is like my life before is completely gone, all that sinfull nature. But I was still lost and felt alone. I still have my crosses and Mother Mary statues, Saint cards from my sister in Italy, and never removed them, for some reason I would not get rid of them.

Now by reading this website, gave me more guidance and I will return to being Catholic, this time I will do it right. I was baptized, had communion but stopped after, I should of stuck with it, just like my Grandmother. I also was very selfish, I have 3 kids and they all have been baptized, but never teached them, or brought them to church.. CCD or anything...I have tears in eyes writing this, sorry if I am rambling, but I want God in my life so much and my children. I will go to St. Jude's here in town and start with my kids.

A question, I was taught that I was Roman Catholic, what is the difference? I always thought it was because I was Italian and born in Italy. Should I be just Catholic?

Thank you so much and I hope more people realize how wonderful Catholics are.

God Bless You,
Marina

Marina,
As the Bible tells us, all the angels and Saints in heaven celebrate when a child of God comes back to Him! It's wonderful to hear your story.

We are Roman Catholics for a reason - read Why are we 'Roman Catholics' instead of just 'Catholics' for a detailed explanation.

We will be praying for you and your family.

God bless,
Jay