December 12, 2003
A Bone to Pick with Dr. Dobson: Masturbation
Even though I greatly appreciate most of the work Dr. Dobson has done over the years, I think his books on parenting especially those dealing with boys and teenagers should be avoided because he condones masturbation. As a former sex education teacher, who even used the Focus on the Family video regarding safe sex as being a lie for those engaging in premarital sex, I think his attitude on masturbation is troubling and to say the least gravely immoral. Below is an article I found posted on his website dealing with the issue.
Question:
My thirteen-year-old son is in the full bloom of adolescence. I'm suspicious that he may be masturbating when he's alone, but I don't quite know how to approach him about it. Should I be concerned, and if so, what should I say to him?Dr. Dobson Responds:
I don't think you should invade that private world at all unless there are unique circumstances that lead you to do so. I offer that advice while acknowledging that masturbation is a highly controversial subject and Christian leaders differ widely in their perspectives on it. I will answer your question but hope you understand that some Bible scholars will disagree emphatically with what I will say.First, let's consider masturbation from a medical perspective. We can say without fear of contradiction that there is no scientific evidence to indicate that this act is harmful to the body. Despite terrifying warnings given to young people historically, it does not cause blindness, weakness, mental retardation, or any other physical problem. If it did, the entire male population and about half of females would be blind, weak, simpleminded, and sick. Between 95 and 98 percent of all boys engage in this practice — and the rest have been known to lie. It is as close to being a universal behavior as is likely to occur. A lesser but still significant percentage of girls also engage in what was once called "self-gratification."
As for the emotional consequences of masturbation, only four circumstances should give us cause for concern. The first is when it is associated with oppressive guilt from which the individual can't escape. That guilt has the potential to do considerable psychological and spiritual damage. Boys and girls who labor under divine condemnation can gradually become convinced that even God couldn't love them. They promise a thousand times with great sincerity never again to commit this despicable act. Then a week or two passes, or perhaps several months. Eventually, the hormonal pressure accumulates until nearly every waking moment reverberates with sexual desire. Finally, in a moment (and I do mean a moment) of weakness, it happens again. What then, dear friend? Tell me what a young person says to God after he or she has just broken the one thousand first solemn promise to Him? I am convinced that some teenagers have thrown over their faith because of their inability to please God at this point of masturbation.
The second circumstance in which masturbation might have harmful implications is when it becomes extremely obsessive. That is more likely to occur when it has been understood by the individual to be "forbidden fruit." I believe the best way to prevent that kind of obsessive response is for adults not to emphasize or condemn it. Regardless of what you do, you will not stop the practice of masturbation in your teenagers. That is a certainty. You'll just drive it underground — or under covers. Nothing works as a "cure." Cold showers, lots of exercise, many activities, and awesome threats are ineffective. Attempting to suppress this act is one campaign that is destined to fail--so why wage it?
The third situation around which we should be concerned is when the young person becomes addicted to pornographic material. The kind of obscenity available to teenagers today has the capacity to grab and hold a boy for the rest of his life. Parents will want to intervene if there is evidence that their son or daughter is heading down that well-worn path.
The fourth concern about masturbation refers not to adolescents but to us as adults. This habit has the capacity to follow us into marriage and become a substitution for healthy sexual relations between a husband and wife. This, I believe, is what the apostle Paul meant when he instructed us not to "deprive" one another as marital partners: "Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control" (1 Corinthians 7:5).
As for the spiritual implications of masturbation, I will have to defer to the theologians for a more definitive response. It is interesting to me, however, that Scripture does not address this subject except for a single reference in the Old Testament to a man named Onan. He interrupted sexual intercourse with his sister-in-law and allowed his semen to fall on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother, which was his "duty" (Genesis 38:8). Though that verse is often cited as evidence of God's disapproval of masturbation, the context doesn't seem to fit.
So, what should parents say to their kids about this subject? My advice is to say nothing after puberty has occurred. You will only cause embarrassment and discomfort. For those who are younger, it would be wise to include the subject of masturbation in the "Preparing for Adolescence" conversation I have recommended on other occasions. I would suggest that parents talk to their twelve- or thirteen-year-old boys, especially, in the same general way my mother and father discussed this subject with me. We were riding in the car, and my dad said, "Jim, when I was a boy, I worried so much about masturbation. It really became a scary thing for me because I thought God was condemning me for what I couldn't help. So I'm telling you now that I hope you don't feel the need to engage in this act when you reach the teen years, but if you do, you shouldn't be too concerned about it. I don't believe it has much to do with your relationship with God."
What a kind thing my father did for me that night in the car. He was a very conservative minister who never compromised his standards of morality to the day of his death. He stood like a rock for biblical principles and commandments. Yet he cared enough about me to lift from my shoulders the burden of guilt that nearly destroyed some of my friends in the church. This kind of "reasonable" faith taught to me by my parents is one of the primary reasons I never felt it necessary to rebel against parental authority or defy God. Well, those are my views, for what they are worth. I know my recommendations will be inflammatory to some people. If you are one of them, please forgive me. I can only offer the best advice of which I'm capable. I pray that in this instance, I am right.
His response has several problems.
1. He begins his response by stating that masturbation is a highly controversial issue with several different biblical scholars but fails to list their names and positions. He admits and rightly so that many will emphatically disagree with him on this subject. I think this is a good example how the doctrine of Sola Scripture causes division and leads to moral relativism, because according to Dobson the Bible doesn't mention masturbation specifically and therefore he has the right to believe masturbation to be alright, an action having little to do with your relationship with God. The Catholic Church has always taught that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action. CC pg.564 #2352 Masturbation, when done with full knowledge and consent of the will, is a sin. Now, please explain to me how a sin doesn't affect one's relationship with God.
2. He argues his case from a medical perspective stating a statistic with no reference as to who performed this survey and how it was conducted. His statistics prove that every man has masturbated. Jesus was a man, does this mean Jesus masturbated? Then he states that a significant number of girls engage in what was once called "self-gratification". I didn't realize this view had changed.
3. He then goes on to state that there are only four circumstances which cause only emotional consequences which parents should be concerned with. Notice he doesn't believe there are any moral or spiritual consequences when one practices masturbation. His first circumstance is oppressive guilt. Basically, his line of thinking here is that every teen is going to masturbate and their guilt can lead them into losing their relationship with God so don't make them feel guilty for their actions. Just because masturbation might be a universal problem doesn't dismiss the fact that it is wrong. I think universally man deals with the same types of several different sins - selfishness, pride, lust, lying, etc. and we feel guilt for these actions. Guilt should be felt and should lead us back to Christ no matter how many times we fail even if it is a 1,000 times if we ask, Christ said he would forgive us over and over again. There is no end to his mercy, love, and forgiveness.
4. His next circumstance is when masturbation becomes extremely obsessive. Again he offers a parent no guide to determine when masturbation reaches this point and in fact states they are going to do it anyway so why wage a war against it, there is no cure. What about prayer? Do you mean Christ can not give one the grace to conquer this sin? Apparently not, according to Dobson there is no cure so don't condemn the action to your teens. I find this attitude extremely disturbing because this is same attitude I was fed as a teenager regarding premarital sex. Everybody is going to do it so why wait? Teenagers have no control over their hormones so hand them condoms, they're going to have sex anyway. I know Dobson doesn't feel this way about premarital sex which baffles me why he views masturbation to be different.
5. His third circumstance for concern is when masturbation leads to pornography addiction. Again his advice is weak for parents. The crazy advice I find is that when masturbation leads to this action then it is O.K. for parents to condemn the action and to intervene. Wouldn't it be wiser to intervene before this becomes an issue? If I had a child who struggled with a weight problem, would I wait until he/she is 300 lbs. overweight to deal with the issue or would I teach them from a young age about proper nutrition and exercise? The same should be applied with our sexuality. If I know most or all male teens (according to Dobson) are going to masturbate, would I not teach my child from toddlerhood on about sexual morality? Would I not show them God's design for our bodies in regards to marriage and the sexual act and how other actions distort this act and hurt our relationship with God and others? Why would I wait until the issue was out of control as he suggests?
6. His fourth circumstance I find to be ironic considering his other advice, because would it not follow that if you condone masturbation to your teens, as he suggests, that this behavior would become habit as an adult and interfere with your marital relationship? In fact, masturbation began affecting your marital relationship from the moment you started practicing it, because it distorts God's design for sex. God designed sex to be an act of mutual self-giving, ever unitive and open to procreation. Masturbation distorts this act by being self indulgent and completely closed to life.
7. He then gives reference to spiritual implications by referring to the story of Onan in the OT (Genesis 38:8) however, he dismisses this reference as not applicable to the context of masturbation. However, he is wrong. The sin Onan committed was wasting "his seed", ejaculating outside of a woman essentially. What is masturbation for a male, but ejaculating outside of a woman and wasting "one's seed". It is considered wasting one's seed because semen is a life-giving substance with the ability of creating new life within a woman. Thus God created the sexual act to be open to life at all times. Hence, when Onan freely chose to indulge in sexual pleasure yet refused to be open to life, God disapproved. In fact if you read the story of Onan God disapproved so much that He killed Onan. So according to the Bible wasting "one's seed" is a serious offense against God with eternal ramifications. Something not to be dismissed, is it no wonder people deal with such guilt over the act of masturbation? Perhaps masturbation was never directly mentioned in the Bible because not that many people struggled with it at the time due to the fact that many married while in their teens unlike today.
In conclusion, I strongly disagree with Dobson as does the Church and believe parents should read his material with caution. Masturbation is a sin and wounds one relationship with Christ however, there is a cure and his name is Jesus. He can help you overcome any sin.
An excellent book on this subject is My Beautiful Feeling by Walter and Ingrid Trobisch.
Peace in Christ,
Maria
Posted by Maria at December 12, 2003 3:43 PM | TrackBack
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Other than your cheap shot at Sola Scriptura, I agree with the bulk of what you say. I think Dobson leaves out the most important part of this discussion. Sola Scriptura has nothing to do with this argument as Dobson gives his own opinion...not God's.
The act of ejaculation outside of sexual intercourse is not, in and of itself, sinful. Wet dreams occur and are not necessarily connected to sex-filled dreams. This tells me that the body can release semen without the accompaniment of sinful thoughts or actions. It can even be part of a normal and necessary bodily function (ridding the body of old semen so new semen can be created).
Masturbation is always accompanied by lustful thoughts and fantasies. So in my mind the argument is not so much whether or not stimulating onself is the issue. To me the issue is that God calls us to have pure thoughts and to flee lustful thoughts. This tells me that masturbation is wrong.
I suppose the question can be raised of whether masturbation without accompanying fantasies is wrong...but I'm not sure it is really even relevant.
Posted by: Tim at December 12, 2003 4:38 PMTim, I would agree with you in regards to having pure thoughts and fleeing lustful ones and I agree with your statement regarding wet dreams. Wet dreams are something that happen in your sleep and are beyond your control therefore not a sin. However, masturbation and ejaculation outside of a woman, as with the case of Onan, are different because individuals are fully conscious and aware of what they are doing. This is when masturbation and/or ejaculation outside of a woman are a sin.
I did not intend to make a cheap shot at Sola Scriptura, but rather make a valid point - you say Dobson was expressing his opinion and not God's. I agree, but if one adheres to Sola Scriptura and since the Bible does not explicitly state that masturbation is a sin what measuring stick does one use to determine whether such an action is sinful or not? One is left with personal interpretations of God's Word and how they apply to our life. So who determines which interpretations are mere manly opinions (as you state) and which one's are God's?
Onan was not condemned by God for the act of ejaculating outside of the woman's body. Ejaculation without intent to procreate was not the problem here. He was condemned for knowingly violating God's law by not providing a child for his brother's wife. It was an act of disobedience and selfishness on his part.
As for Sola Scriptura and personal interpretation, that is a huge, huge discussion and one that would not receive its due in this sort of medium. I will try to write something on that in the near future on my site and will let you know when I do. That way I can state my position carefully and accurately.
What I will say, though, is that Dobson's case really has nothing to do with Sola Scriptura. It has to do with one person ignoring what Scripture says about something. It is analogous to a Catholic ignoring both Scripture and Tradition in his writing. Dobson simply does a poor job of stating the Scriptural position on this topic.
Posted by: Tim at December 13, 2003 11:49 AMTim,
I think you're incorrect about Onan. Remember Onan could have simply refused to take his brothers' wife. If he had done so, the Biblical penalty was that the priest would spit in his shoe and Onan would have been disgraced. This is a far cry from the death penalty, so Onan must have done something additional in order to warrant such a strong response from God. The only answer is that Onan practiced an early form of Birth Control - he wanted the enjoyment of sex without the consequences.
I don't think we can say Onan was killed simply for not taking his brother's wife.
God bless,
Jay
Onan could have refused to do his duty on behalf of his brother. In that case he would have suffered some disgrace but would have been free of his duty. However, he did not do that. He pretended to fulfill his duty, while actually spilling his seed on the ground. So he did want the enjoyment of sex, but within a context of adultery. He also wanted to avoid the disgrace that was rightfully his for not fulfilling his duty.
If he had simply refused to have sex with the woman, God would not have punished him. If he had had sex with the woman and attempted to get her pregnant God would not have punished him. God punished him for not doing either one - he did not do God's will or take the "escape route" God allowed.
Posted by: Tim at December 15, 2003 9:19 AMHey everyone. I always thought 1 Corinthians 6:18 somehow dealt with anything sexual including masturbation
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. (NIV translation)
If you have trouble believing that applies directly to masturbation...
Regardless, you can follow the Bible and what it says in regards to other things. We are called to pursue God and God alone. That is, leave worldly things and desires behind. As well, we should flee from sin and that which would lead us into temptation we should also flee from lest we give a foothold to the devil.
So if masturbation leads to lustful thoughts, we know that lust is a sin, therefore masturbation should not be done.
So Maria, how exactly can you say that the Bible doesn't address this issue? I'm having problems with your logic ;-)
Posted by: Tontito at December 16, 2003 3:45 AM21 days for a woman and about 21-22 days for a man. with no sin involved, you figure it out. as for the act itself, it is lustful and shows no self-control and is of the devil because of the 'conviction', not the 'guilt'. conviction comes from being a child of God, not guilt because it's wrong (thats a term for the world). if you don't know God, you don't know conviction whereas the world substitutes guilt for conviction.
Posted by: paul baccus at December 22, 2003 11:30 AMare you sure that's scientifically correct, tim - about wet dreams ridding the body of old semen so new semen can be created.
i'm 17 and i've never had a wet dream (as far as i can tell).
my doctor says if one doesn't ejaculate the semen just gets reabsorbed and replumbed into the body.
and that's perfectly ok.
maria - i'm a teen and i strongly agree with your point of view.
i think dr dobson has a vested interest in defending a practice in which he admittedly indulged.
you're absolutely right that parents should educate their kids in an age-appropriate manner so they develop respect for themselves, respect for other people and respect for God's Word - understanding that sexual activity is for married adults only.
i've been raised by grandparents and my grandfather made sure i understood the dangers of giving in to bodily lusts as i entered puberty.
the evil one - satan - is more than willing to take advantage of us if we don't protect our areas of vulnerability.
the dangers of self-abuse is that as well as being objectively sinful in its own right - it's a gateway sin, potentially leading to even more serious forms of fornication.
in teens - it's also linked to other delinquent behaviours, lack of concnetration and focus for schoolwork etc.
so dr dobson's recommendation that a blind eye should be turned to it has its own perils.
yours faithfully,
joemorti@yahoo.com
Posted by: joseph morti at December 23, 2003 1:18 PMNot to butt in, but you may wish to re-think the Onan issue.
First, Jay's comment that Onan could have refused to marry Tamar is not quite correct... The legal procedure Jay sets forth came several hundered year later.
Second, God never commanded Onan to do anything; his father did. Judah ordered him to do something and Onan intentionally refused.
Onan's punishment, perhaps, might have more to do with disobeying his father than it does with EITHER wasting semen OR refusing to provide a line for his dead brother.
The catholic teaching on masturbation is merely a corollary to the more general teaching on procreation. I disagree with that general teaching on procreation (i.e., I believe that sex between a married couple -- even when no possibility of reproduction exists -- is a good thing.) Accordingly, I don't come to any necessary conclusions about mastrubation as I reject the premise of the RCC that leads you there.
Tontito,
The Bible does not explicitly address the issue of masturbation. Hence, why a good Christian man such as Dobson does not view it as immoral. The biblical quote you provided is good and applies to masturbation if one already believes and acknowledges masturbation to be a sexual sin. However, if one (such as Dobson) does not see this practice as sexually immoral than how does this verse apply to masturbation?
Your other reasoning is sound, but perhaps not totally comprehensive. Dobson says one should discourage masturbation when it leads to pornographic issues, lustful thoughts. However, he indicates in his article not all masturbation involves this and can be a mere release of tension, stress and therefore not an occasion of sin. I disagree with him because I know and believe that masturbation is a sin in and of itself because it wastes God's life giving seed, it perverts God's unitive design for sex as well as can lead to lustful thoughts as you stated. Hope this helps you to understand my logic better.
Maria :)
Lurquer,
Welcome to our site. On the subject of Onan, I have never read or come across your statement that the legal procedure came hundred of years later. Where did you get this information?
In regards to Onan intentionally refusing his father's request, I would have to argue that by having sex with his new wife and ejaculating outside of a woman, he is refusing to obey God's first command to man and woman - to be fruitful and mutiply. And in so doing was performing like Jay stated an early form of birth control.
Lastly, by your last remark I gather that you have been misinformed as to what the Church teaches in regards matrimony and procreation. I would like to know what you think the general teaching on procreation is, you implied it, but didn't quite state it. So in order for me to help you come to a conclusion about masturbation I need to know your premise.
I assume by your parentheses that you agree with the Church that sex is meant for marriage and marriage alone. Thus, procreation for most couples is a natural end of marriage. Here is the general teaching of the Church in regards to sex.
"Conjugal love (sex) involves a totality, in which all the elements of the person enter - appeal of the body and instinct, power of feeling and affectivity, aspiration of the spirit and of will. It aims at a deeply personal unity, a unity that, beyond union in one flesh, leads to forming one heart and soul; it demands indissolubility and faithfulness in definitive mutual giving; and it is open to fertility." (Catechism of the Catholic Church pg.410 #1643)
Sex in the Church's eyes is holy and good when followed by God's designs which necessitate an openness to fertiliy (hence why the Church will always condemn articial contraception and other acts which are not open to life). The Church has never taught that sex is not holy or good if it doesn't produce a child.
The Catechism expounds further on the openness to fertility by stating, "Spouses to whom God has not granted children can nevertheless have a conjugal life full of meaning, in both human and Christian terms. Their marriage can radiate a fruitfulness of charity, of hospitality, and of sacrifice." (pg.413 #1654)
Hopefully you reconsider the true premises of the Catholic Church.
Maria
Amazing. Sometimes I wonder if your organization is so heavenly minded that it is no earthly good. Why don't you do some real research and useful commentary instead of thinking that pleasure=sin and non-pleasure=non-sin? Why isn't a woman told that she is sinning when she has her period? It holds more weight than what your commentary does, catholic as it may appear. Did you know I, as a boy of 14, didn't know about masturbation? And, more importantly, I didn't know that my neighbor's dad molested me by causing me to ejaculate by using his own hand?
Here are some starters for some real research into the subject:
http://layhands.com/IsMasturbationASin.htm
http://www.family.org/teenguys/breakmag/departments/a0021191.html
http://www.notfrisco2.com/webzine/Lynn/001582.html
Posted by: Mr. Beebee at January 7, 2004 9:30 PMMr. Beebee,
I consider it a compliment that we are "heavenly minded" although I take offense at the silly notion that Catholics believe pleasure=sin. Rather we think sin=sin, whereas protestants tend to make anything they like=not sin.
The Church was founded by Christ to make sure God was represented on earth. You may not like that the Church requires us to be moral, but God has the same requirements. No one would suggest you sinned by being molested, but masturbation is a sin and it is (as discussed above) tightly tied to sexual fantasizing, which most would agree is sinful. There's a lot of confusion here, so I'll make sure we get some articles up explaining the Biblical evidence condemning contraception and sex outside of marriage (of which masturbation is included).
God bless,
Jay
You may want to help some of the others who post incorrect statements... such as
>>>"The act of ejaculation outside of sexual intercourse is not, in and of itself, sinful. Wet dreams occur and are not necessarily connected to sex-filled dreams. This tells me that the body can release semen without the accompaniment of sinful thoughts or actions. It can even be part of a normal and necessary bodily function (ridding the body of old semen so new semen can be created)."
which was posted on 12/12/2003 as being misinformed or simple-minded. Those who wish to learn and study should read Leviticus 15:16-18 about an emission of semen, irregardless of whether it's nocturnal or not. And, yes, both ways are a sin. This, by the way, flies in the face of what we think about God. Doesn't it?
And read the next section Leviticus 15:19-30. Did you know that God sees that even a woman's monthly is a sin as much as a man releasing semen? And God said this! Not Moses! And if it's not a sin, then why were those who had these commanded to give a burnt offering and a sin offering? Read it for yourself it you don't believe it. - We're talking about a God that is more holy than probably we can think about.
The real issue is that not only that God is more holy than what we can imagine (or earn a ticket to see), but that God has given us freedom in Christ not to worry so much about not sinning but instead to try our best to worship Him.
And just think... if it weren't for sex, you'd not be here!
Posted by: Mr. Beebee at January 7, 2004 10:25 PMmr. beebee,
check out that 50 palpacy bit, God needs atonement for sin. Eve stepped out of line in the Garden,and God gets atonement back every month until childbirth and then a woman goes right back into atonement. satan knows our fleshy desires and may attacks in our sleep with sex-fatansies but even if he doesn't our body is still known to release secretion without us knowing it. keep postin', i like people who really read the Bible!
Paul
Posted by: Paul Baccus at January 9, 2004 2:07 AMPaul,
Are you suggesting that the Crucifixion of Christ wasn't enough atonement for sin? You say "God needs atonement for sin," but I would argue that that's what the Cross was for. Granted, we can help make up what is lacking in the atonement of Christ, but He did the real work.
Also, I certainly hope you aren't suggesting that Joe and I don't read the Bible - All of our posts have been grounded in Scripture.
God bless,
Jay
By the way, Paul and Mr. Beebee, I think it's important to note that there were two different sets of Old Testament laws. First there is the moral law or the Ten Commandments. This was the whole of God's laws initially. However, because of the Golden Calf episode, God handed down a second set of laws intended to remove the paganism (calf worship, etc) from the Israelites. This second set of laws has never been adhered to by Christians per se and Jesus indicated on numerous occasions that it was not necessary as part of the Christian life.
So, you can't say that this law either binds us today or indicates what is sinful. By the way, Leviticus includes a significant amount of very odd regulations that even Jesus indicated unnecessary (healing on the Sabbath, washing hands before meals, etc). See Mark 7:1-9 and Mark 7:14-23 for examples.
God bless,
Jay
In regards to Maria's comments on Dr. Dobson: In #1 you mentioned CC pg 564 #2352, Dr. Dobson is not Catholic so why would this be relevent to him. You also stated that Onan was wrong for wasting seed. Are you trying to say that all birth control is wrong? When a couple use condoms is that not wasting seed? Does this mean that it is sinful to use birth control? When a woman has her tubes tied does that mean that sex between her and her husband is wrong? There would no longer a need for this seed. It would simply be wasted. You said that Onan's sin was wasting his seed. Doesn't everyone with an active sex life do that on numerous occasions? I'm not 100% sure what my stand on masturbation is because I have never personally had to deal with the issue but if what you say about Onan is true then it seems like a lot of us our sinning in this manner on a daily basis. Your opinion would be appreciated?
Posted by: Alicia at January 14, 2004 7:08 PMAlicia,
Until the 1930's, every Christian church taught that birth control was a sin. Only at that time did the first church - the Anglican church - begin suggesting that birth control was okay (note that the Anglicans are the first to approve of homosexual priests in our day). Since then, the various other protestant denominations have gradually removed their condemnation of birth control. Only the Catholic Church stands firm in the teachings held by Christians and Jews from the beginning.
This article specifically discusses the pill and problems associated with it.
God bless,
Jay
Jay,
I think Tim is right!
I suggest that you should read the Bible first. Onan's sin is not masturbation.
mic
Posted by: mic at January 16, 2004 6:41 PMNo one suggested that Onan's sin is masturbation!
Okay, there's a lot of misunderstanding surrounding Onan. I'm about to write an article on contraception, but first I wanted to answer this. Let's look at the verses:
Genesis 38:8-10. Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went into his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also.
I think the first mistake is in a misunderstanding: Onan could have easily refused this. However, he didn’t because he wanted his brother’s property. See, first Onan married his brother’s wife (sex outside of marriage is sin, we can all agree), which gave him control over his brother’s assets. But he wanted the property and the enjoyment of sex (he did not refuse to have sex with her, he just refused to accept the natural consequences of sex). So Onan fulfilled 2/3rds of the requirements, but wasn’t interested in his brother’s wife conceiving.
Tim’s mistake is in believing that Onan did not marry the sister beforehand, but we know from Jewish law that this would have been the case before they had intercourse. Otherwise it would have been adultery – I don’t think God would have allowed a law that had Onan have sex with his brother’s wife outside of marriage! So Onan’s only sin was in “spilling his seed” on the ground, which is an act still referred to as onanism.
God bless,
Jay
I've finally added another article exploring the Biblical argument against contraception. It tackles Onan and notes some other relevant verses.
God bless,
Jay
As a new Catholic, I have a quick question for all of you Catholics out there that is related to this topic. If a wife has already had a tubal ligation (or a husband has had a vasectomy), is it immoral for the couple to continue engaging in intercourse? In other words, does the original sinful act render all future sexual acts in that state sinful? And if it is sinful, do both spouses commit the sin, or only the spouse who is not open to life?
In Christ,
Dave
dear brother,
i am does not know how to over come masturbation habit.
i try to avoid this many times but i fails
i contunuing this habit only for 8 years
is it give any problem in marriage life,now i am 25 year old.
please help me
raj
Posted by: raj at April 7, 2004 9:29 AMHere is a few interesting things to think about when discussing in masturbation:
In Mathew, Jesus spoke about Lust in its relation to adultry (forgive my spelling), saying that if you lust after a woman/man other than the one you are married to you are commiting adultry. This can be applied in the same context to lusting before marriage, only instead of adultry this would be known as fornication (sex outside of wedlock). Just a little fun play on words.
I also heard that "wet dreams" are a bodys natural release of semen, and I think the reason that some people do not have them is because they fulfill their body's need to release semen either by masturbating or partaking in some sexual act (which may explain Joseph Morti's comment on never having a wet dream).
Masturbation is wrong, it forces us to sin through lust and causes us to be sexually impure in God's eyes.
Masturbation ultimately leads to the addiction of pornography. Anyone who masturbates is (most of the time) thinking of something sexual in their head. Next time you think of that, or next time you view pornography, remember this: the person on the screen (or in your head) was created in GODS IMAGE! This is one of God's daughters, and we are daring to treat her like a piece of meat only good for fulfilling our sexual pleasure. That's what helps me not to masturbate, hopefully it will help you.
In Christ Jesus, FATHER of all men and WOMEN on this earth!
Jayson
Posted by: Jayson at April 16, 2004 12:01 AMDave,
In regards to your question about previous sexual operations - as a new Catholic, once you realize the sinfulness of your previous deeds, your sexual acts are immoral until you confess them and make amends of these deeds by trying to have the operation reversed, which with today's technology has become quite successful for most people. However, if reversal is unsuccessful yet you have confessed your sins - any sexual acts in the future would not be immoral because through Christ your sins are forgiven and you are healed. However, now understanding the beauty of the sexual act in being open to life, you may both have to deal with deep sorrow for not being able to have more God-given children of your own and this will be something you will both have to deal with and seek healing from God with His infinite mercy and grace. And please spread the Truth and speak out against these unGodly operations(when used for the purpose of birth control, not life-saving health reasons). Hope this answers your question.
Your sister in Christ,
Maria
Raj,
Christ gave His live so that through faith we are saved from the eternal death that results from sin. If you have faith that Christ loves you and has saved you, then you can and must ask for his help. He has sent the Holy Spirit to comfort us. You can turn aside the temptations from Satan by instead directing your mind toward reflecting on His majestic grace and the hope of eternal life.
In your case God has already given you the gift of a wife to help you. If you need more help than that, keep asking Him for it. If you want to know if your habit will affect your relationship with your wife, you will have to ask her. If you cannot ask her about this topic, then you already have your answer.
It is unfortunate that the popular culture holds that urge towards masturbation is uncontrollable. As with any discipline our mind wanders, but we have the power to bring it back to God whenever we want.
Posted by: Jon Cohen at April 17, 2004 12:04 PMMaria,
Thanks for the answer, but I should have answered that question myself some time back. I thought I would do a little research and found a wonderful book called "Sterilization Reversal - A Generous Act of Love." I also hooked up with the authors and persons highlighted in the book. The teaching of the Church is that reversal or even an attempt at it is NOT necessary. Continued sexual activity is not sinful, though the party/parties that participated in the sterilization must repent for what they have done. The decision to attempt reversal is a personal one that should be made with the guidance of your priest.
I also want to support and correct your broader points. Sterilization is a grave act, one that mutilates one of the most wonderful gifts that God has given us. Moreover, in spite of technological advances, most reversals are actually unsuccessful. Those considering sterilization and thinking that reversal is a back pocket way out should reconsider. Not only is the operation very painful and potentially dangerous, the limited success may leave you longing for the children that you will never have.
It is truly demoralizing that so many women will feel pressured into this choice by "well-meaning" family members who are tired of these ridiculous pregnancies. Even more often, men are pressured into them by friends and family who will shame him into thinking that he is not being supportive of his wife if he refuses to be sterilized (presumably forcing his wife to have the sterilization). That the bearing of children has come to be viewed in such a cheap, selfish, and derrogatory manner is really very sickening. That people with these views try to guilt-trip others into committing acts of violence on their own sexuality is positively disgusting. Let us all have the temerity to stand up to this evil practice with the courage and compassion of Christ.
In Christ,
Dave
If I am contunually lusting, I am sinning. If I am fleeing from lusting, the Lord is please in that respect. In my experience, I have sought to apply this truth to my life and avoid lust. I repent when I've given in to it. However, I have observed that, at times when my body is so driven with the biological intensity the sex drive, I have known times when I couldn't (couldn't!!!) keep my mind on track. As I was trying to avoid the thoughts by changing activities, singing, running, talking to others, praying, reading the Bible, I was only frustrated to know that I couldn't avoid the feelings and the thoughts pleagued me! (some people experience this more intensely than others. The sex drive in some ppl is much less intense, to varying degrees.) Because of this, I have taken a practical approach (((with myself))) (not that I would counsel others this way), that if I release the semen, I deal have dealt with lust much much less than if I just sit by and let it fester. I do not mean to equivocate or make excuses for lusting! But the fact is, we are marrying much later in life these days. The sex drive hits us much earlier, and at times, it has been unavoidable. And so, I submit that the best answer (in my life, so far) has been to avoid lust, avoid slavery to self-gratification, but to occasionally masturbate when I seem to be caught in my mind by the thoughts and the physical swells of feeling!
Any thoughts?!
Posted by: Max at May 9, 2004 4:30 PMMax,
Good question. I would like to answer you as one who has shared your problem. This is such a hush hush topic, but it is ironic to know that it plagues more than half of the men in our society. I am talking about "uncontrollable" sexual urges. These are most often acted out in the form of p0rnography in varying sorts, all of which lead to masturbation or sexual activity with a partner. I know the difficulty. Much of it is brought on by the overt sexuality in our culture. It is seen on TV every 30 seconds. It is in almost every magazine. It is in the seductive and enticing manner that women now dress. And it is built into our male sex drives.
It's funny, because if you talk to women about the issue, they have absolutely no clue. They don't understand why it is that a man is so chained to sexuality and why so many things that they do and/or wear will flick on that sex drive like a light switch. But the male and female libidos are two totally different things.
So the question is, how do we deal with this? How do we maintain a God-centered sexuality? This is a very personal and amazing question for me, because I found the answer in the Catholic Church. As a Protestant, I had tried everything that you did to avoid sexual sin and masturbation. But nothing worked. My real problem was with p0rnography, and while I would occassionally succeed in avoiding it for a period of time, there were always slip ups. But in the midst of all that, masturbation outside the context of p0rnography seemed "okay" to me because I was avoiding the big sin. Yet deep down, I knew that was wrong too.
When I became a Catholic, I had to accept the Church's teaching that masturbation was a mortal sin. This was a very bitter pill to swallow. But it drove me to take the issue seriously to protect my soul. And it drove me to investigate the "why" of the masturbation issue. What I discovered was the extraordinary design of human sexuality as a SACRAMENTAL gift from God. That means it (along with the other six sacraments) is a way in which God makes His reality present in our reality. Marriage, sex, and procreation are the fullest representation and reality of the very nature of God. They are given to man so that he might experience in his very being who and what God is. The use of these gifts in a perverse manner is a sin against God Himself.
This fact is, in my opinion, programmed into every human being. That is why homosexuality, masturbation, fornication, and other sexual sins have always been taboo. Consider that homosexuality has been around since the dawn of creation. Yet in thousands of years of human history, despite its constant practice, it has never obtained the status of being acceptable. Even in our politically correct culture, no matter how hard the forces of darkness fight against it, they cannot change the basic programming of the human being, which knows that homosexuality is wrong. Masturbation is exactly the same on all counts. And I bet that if you were honest with yourself, you would recognize that you do not feel totally "right" about masturbating to relieve sexual tension.
Max, the answer to your problem is not effort of your own accord. Rather, it is to submit your understanding of sexuality to God's design. Recognize what sexuality is, then you can appreciate what you are doing to God when you masturbate. Once you have that understanding and appreciate the gravity of masturbation, you must allow the Holy Spirit to take over. Only He, through the empowering work of Christ on the Cross, can take the old you (the sinful nature) and change it into the image of Christ. Naturally you must cooperate by engaging with the Holy Spirit on a daily basis. But I can tell that in spite of the occassional struggle, the Spirit has given me victory over this sin, something that all of my past struggle never enabled me to do. All praise and honor to God through Jesus Christ for the deliverance that He alone can grant.
If you would like to know more about the sacramental nature of sexuality, please just let me know. It is a subject near and dear to my heart.
In Christ,
Dave
Dave,
Thank you for a very thought-provoking post! I recognize that you, being a Catholic, believe that masturbation is a mortal sin. However, I do not understand the Bible to teach these things. What I recognize is that sin, whatever its manifestation, sexual or not, is a transgression against God. All sin is punishable by death and leads only TO death. If the only sin that I ever committed was "innocent", meaning relatively small and inconsequencial, God would be obligated, in His justice, to punish it! "For the wages of sin is death..."
So, it is any departure from God's revealed will/law that evokes His punishment. However, thanks to Jesus Christ, I will never taste that punishment! I will never experience God's wrath against me! "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus..." The gift God gives is "eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." "Not by works of righteousness..." am I saved, but "according to His mercy, He saved us."
My devotion, allegiance, obedience to God is not predicated on fear of His anger or wrath! I do not serve God becuase He might punish me if I don't! My obedience to Him is out of recognition of His enormous love for me! "We love Him becuase He first loved us."
As God's child, I do not recieve punishment (a legal term, not a relationship.) I recieve discipline (a relational term, not a dry, sterile balancing of justice!) This is the language of Scripture. This, I stand fast upon!
Dave,
I realize I did not talk about masturbation in the above post, but I did speak to the reason you gave for stopping your masturbation. I'm glad that you have experienced victory in this area. But I don't agree with the reason you stopped it. Stopping is wonderful! Stopping because you're afraid God is going to take your standing in His Grace or send you to Hell is not realistic. The fact is, we are not going to fall from His grace. His grace is given for just such a reason (((we are prone to sin!!!)))
My stopping masturbation is going to be based on my love for God, as He has first loved me. As an act of obedience to His wonderful love, I will submit my desires to Him. That takes the Holy Spirit's help, yes! But overcoming this battle is not going to be based on the idea that I'm scared of God. I'm in reverence of Him...but not scared of Him.
Dave,
I realize I did not talk about masturbation in the above post, but I did speak to the reason you gave for stopping your masturbation. I'm glad that you have experienced victory in this area. But I don't agree with the reason you stopped it. Stopping is wonderful! Stopping because you're afraid God is going to take your standing in His Grace or send you to Hell is not realistic. The fact is, we are not going to fall from His grace. His grace is given for just such a reason (((we are prone to sin!!!)))
My stopping masturbation is going to be based on my love for God, as He has first loved me. As an act of obedience to His wonderful love, I will submit my desires to Him. That takes the Holy Spirit's help, yes! But overcoming this battle is not going to be based on the idea that I'm scared of God rejection of me. I'm in reverence of Him...but not scared of Him. From the gravest sins to the smallest, you as a father would not disown your son. And to say that God would is to make man the giver of a greater love than God. Not possible!!!
Max,
God does not disown you through your act of masturbation. Rather, you disown God. God is faithful; we are not. The prodigal son was always accepted by his father, not just when he returned. However, had the prodigal son died in his rebellion, that rebellion would have been permanent. Such is the case with us and God. It is appointed unto man once to die and then to be judged! If you die in a state of rebellion against God, that is the state in which you will be judged. Once saved, always saved is a fiction. If you disagree, I suggest you read James 2:14-26 (even where one has faith, that faith can DIE if not accompanied by works), Hebrews 6:4-8 (one who shares in the Holy Spirit and then turns away is doomed), Matthew 6:15 (even where you "believe", if you don't forgive others God will not forgive you), and many others.
As to responding in fear, you are correct that love should be our primary motivator. And I too used that refrain once. Yet it was little more than a refrain, obviously for both of us, because it did not change our conduct. True love loves truth. It means accepting that rejecting God's truth will result in our separation from God, not because He doesn't love us, but rather because He gives us the choice to reject Him and respects that choice if we make it. But if you boldly claim to love God, yet routinely disobey Him and convince yourself that things are okay, you are deceived. Consider the words of Christ: "He who has My commandments and KEEPS them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." John 14:21. Yet your licentious notion of love contradicts the very words of the One you purport to love. Yes, God knows we may mess up occassionally. But He cannot embrace those who engage in activities that are so violently opposed to His nature. Not because one sin is "worse" than another, but rather because when you willfully engage in such sin (murder, homosexual activity, blasphemy, etc.) you evidence the condition of your heart, which has set itself up in clear opposition to the God you purport to serve. In other words, it is not God who rejects you, but rather you who are rejecting God in your heart as evidenced by your actions. If this is foreign to you, go read I John 5:16-17 where John distinguishes between sin that leads to death and sin that does not lead to death; there is a difference.
Last, but most certainly not least, there is definitely a place for righteous fear when it comes to salvation. Your objection is simply not supported by Scripture. Rather, Paul states "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling..." Philippians 2:12. The Bible is not one-sided. So many factions of Christianity have a sort of dualism where its either/or, one thing or the other. The True Church, however, has always accepted duality rather than dualism. In a grand mystery, two seemingly contrary things are both true. For instance, God is both three and one. Man's future is already determined and known by God, yet man has free will. And in this case, man's obedience to God is motivated both out of love and fear. The carrot and the stick if you will. Love is the greatest, for sure. But fear is a measuring stick, a tester of just how true our love is. If we say that we have love, yet routinely particpate in sin that leads to death, we are woefully deceived. As Paul said, we must indeed work out our salvation in fear. I'll try to live by those words. We would all do well to live by those words.
In Christ,
Dave
Dave,
It seems this debate has left the realm of simply masturbation and entired into a theological disagreement of the fundamentals. I realize your position on James 2, Hebrews 4, and Matthew 6. I have studied these passages in depth before. It is imperative that we study, however, with a keen eye toward the context, and with an awareness that translation (especially Old English) should prompt us to study in the original language as much as possible. Doing this would reveal that James 2 does not suggest saving faith can die. It would reveal that Hebrews 4:4-6 contains a parenthetical phrase interrupting the flow, and affecting the meaning of the passage drastically from what one would see by a glance. Also, in Matt. 6, forgiving and being forgiven is not in a salvific context at all.
In stating that there are daulities that far outreach our comprehension in Scripture, I would agree. However, there is not such a duality in this sense. God's plan of salvation, by design, is simple, not complicated. A thorough reading of the book of Hebrews will dispell forever the idea that Christ's sacrifice on the cross removed the guiltiness of sin forever from the person who believes. Such believe leads to a number of events happening within the person, such as sealing by the Holy Spirit,And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph. 4:30), regeneration, making of a new man, born into the family of God, made heir of all things with Christ, made a priest and king with Jesus, and many other things. It is not a simple walk in - walk out relationship. It is His sons whom he chasteneth. He is not so impotent that we, by a weakness of the flesh, or distrust of Him, can revoke all the works that have been accomplished in the heart and life of that individual! "But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Heb. 7:24-25)The repentance of a believer does not result in a fresh justification but in restoration to
fellowship. When a believer sins fails to repent, he fails to receive the restoration he needs, but
his salvation, which is a gift from God, and is by grace through faith, remains unaffected. And
remember God will discipline him on the earth {Heb.12:4-11; 1 Cor. 11:31-32} and he will
suffer loss of rewards in heaven {1 Cor. 3:15} "yet he himself shall be saved".
It is a point of disagreement. I know. The love of God. The fear (respect) of God. The fear of loss of rewards. These are aspects involved in victory. But my bedrock motivation for obedience is love.
Even reviewing these things with you has served as a reminder! It's been helpful to me. It's kept me in His Word. That's not from fear, but love.
max
I just wanted to jump in a little on the whole onanism "spilling the seed is a sin" thing. I guess I should prefix this with the fact that I, like Dobson, am protestant. If wasting seed was a sin, then what do you make of women who are infertile. There are women who simply cannot have kids. Are these women bound forever to celibacy, never to enjoy a husband? I suppose you will say yes. I found this whole forum rather frustrating. I am not in favor of masturbation. The whole sexual fantasy/lust is the winner for me, but this whole wasted seed thing seems absurd. I have a BA degree in Biblical Studies and the context does not suggest that the seed being wasted is the sin. I don't want to argue interpretation, but considering the ammount of people who could come into contact with what is being taught concerning this, I feel its important to present the perspective that things like birth control are ok, and if your wife has had an operation, that it would be silly to reverse it (and on top of that, it is not a sin). Take some time and pray, study God's word, and talk to a pastor. For those who are frustrated concerning this teaching, talk to someone outside of the Catholic church. Can't decide? Ask God for wisdom (something both protestant and Catholic alike will agree that God will give) and get a second (protestant) opinion. I know what I believe, you have to make up your on mind. Your guide for truth is not Catholic Catechisms, but the Holy Scriptures. You don't need a priest to go to God. Christ gave us the freedom to approach God ourselves.
Posted by: Victor at June 9, 2004 3:36 AMVictor,
The Catholic Church most certainly does not teach that infertile women (or men) cannot marry and enjoy sexual relations with their spouse. Spilling the seed is intentionally denying one's procreative powers, one of the most basic aspects of sexuality. Infertility is controlled by God.
As for your recommendations on the "Holy Scriptures", would you please tell us what "Scriptures" you are referring to, how you know that they are "Scripture", and who said that ONLY Scripture was authoritative.
In Christ,
Dave
I'd like to address three points:
1. The standard Christian interpretation of the Onan passages until the 19th century. (that's hundreds of years after protestantism)
2. The Roman Catholic understanding of masturbation as an intrinsically and gravely disordered act.
3. Roman Catholic pastoral guidance on repeated and habitual sin.
1. In the 19th century scholars suggested that God slew Onan because he failed to provide his brother a wife (these were the ones that also suggested Mary was not a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, and that Jesus was not going to return, and that he did not rise from the dead - Evangelical Protestants consider people who believe and teach this not even to be Christian yet they have no problem with the newer interpretation of Genesis 38). Some points to consider:
a. Onan, Onan's younger brother, and Onan's father (by refusing to give his 3rd and last son to Tamar) all failed in their duty yet God only slays one of them, Onan. Onan must have done something wrong other than fail to try and provide Tamar with a child.
b. Although the Levitical laws which penalize a man for not performing his duty for his brother's widow were written at the time of Moses (hundreds of years after Onan and Judah), the penalty is so light (widow spitting in her brother-in-law's shoe and having others call the deadbeat insulting names) compared to God slaying Onan in holy anger. Once again, Onan must have done something worse than failure to provide a child.
c. Genesis 38 says that what Onan DID was wicked. This suggests a sin of commision rather than ommission. Failure to do one's duty is a sin of omission. Had Onan's failure been a sin of omission, the biblical writer's would have used language phrases such as "hard of heart" (such as when referring to Pharoah failing to let the Israelites go, or in the Psalms when exhorting people to listen to God's voice rather than ignoring it). Onan was punished for what he did (spilling seed) rather than what he did not do (fulfill his duty to Tamar)
d. The biblical writers consistently employ explicit sexual descriptions only when they describe something disordered (for example the tale of two prostitutes in Ezekiel, the rape of Dinah in Genesis, the death of a priest's concubine in Judges, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis) and use oblique and subtle language when describing sexuality in a pure state (the Song of Songs/Solomon for example). The only reason a biblical writer has for describing in gory detail a sexual act is to condemn it.
e. All of Christianity, including Protestants such as Luther and Calvin, for hundreds of years, have understood the condemnation of "spilling seed" as applying any deliberate alteration of sexual activity so as to render it infertile. This was always understood to include coitus interruptus, masturbation, and use of barriers such as a condom. This was never understood to include couples which were infertile (either temporarily or permanently).
2. The Cathechism speaks of masturbation as intrinsically and gravely disordered. Gravity, however, is only one of three necessary conditions for mortal sin. The other two are full deliberation and full knowledge/consent. So although masturbation is always a grave sin it is not always mortal sin. Given the addictive power of habit and sexuality, and the weakness of the will at 2am the Catechism wisely and mercifully explains that such conditions can make the sin not mortal (though it remains grave). Mortal sin can only be dealt with by sorrow arising purely out of love for God (known as an Act of Perfect Contrition), the sacrament of Confession which only requires hatred of sin or at minimum the desire to escape punishment (known as imperfect contrition - who but God would be so merciful as to completely forgive a sinner who only wanted to escape punishment), and in the case of imminent death general absolution. It is important for Roman Catholics to realize that although masturbation is always a grave sin, it is not always mortal sin. It means that those who torture themselves with the belief that they incur the penalties of mortal sin each time they fall in this area should cease to be their own unlawfully appointed inquisitors and instead accept the teachings in the Cathechism by embracing the mercy of God. It also means that much can be done for the struggling soul even after it fails for the thousandth time and even during the seeming eternity before Saturday when the next opportunity to go to Confession arises.
3. Dr Dobson rightly points out the pastoral difficulties inherent in dealing with a soul which repeatedly and habitually falls into sin. In some sense he is right to decide to keep his mouth shut about declaring masturbation a sin if he has no comforting words for those that struggle with this. During the time I had left the Roman Catholic Church in favor of a Protestant one, I found myself disappointed with the help I could receive concerning repeated, habitual sin. The scriptures offered little or no comfort as the New Testament deals mainly with new converts and welcoming back for the first time those who had abandoned God and does not deal much with the issue of repeated, habitual sin. I read lots of stories of people getting a second chance. Not may stories of people an 800th chance. The Protestant pastors could offer the best advice and guidance in the world but ultimately the principle of Sola Scriptura would relegate their counsel to the level of "mere opinion". I find the amount of first-rate pastoral counsel coming from the Roman Catholic Church on a real blessing. This guidance is backed by the teaching authority of the Church, and guaranteed by the promises of Christ to be under the influence of the Holy Spirit. This is not to say that Protestants do not also offer first rate guidance (in fact, I was privelieged enough to receive first rate pastoral care while I was a Protestant) the problem is that the principle of Sola Scriptura undermines their teachings.
Although our Lord is just as eager to forgive sexual sins as other sins, everyone knows that even after we receive forgiveness we often remain enslaved and that the road to freedom is long and fraught with many failures. I read that Our Lord said to a Saint (cant remember if it was Gertrude or Catherine) that he wishes our sins to have two effects: greater humility and greater reliance on the Lord, nothing more.
Diedrich Von Hildebrand writes that we should be pleased when we have realized that we have failed yet again. It is a reminder that we are incapable of doing good on our own. The reason we failed is we took control instead of letting God guide our steps. If we could be holy on our own efforts, we would have no need of God.
Dr Dobson along with many Protestants and many Roman Catholics have all observed how young men struggle valiantly and prayerfully to control their impulses yet seem to be unable to maintain such a heroic level of restraint for more than two or three weeks. They also all observe these penitents on the verge of despair, doubting the sincerity of their confession, their repentance, and their conversion. Those who choose not to allow this heartbreaking situation to continue may be tempted to redefine sin as they can see no alternative. In the long run, such approaches cause more and worse problems than they solve.
The authentic Christian alternative to redefining sin when it becomes habitual is to rely more on God instead of making heroic efforts to take control of the situation so as to correct it. Our Lord also appears to be willing to receive the penitent even after the thousandth failure. We find it hard to believe because this doctrine of God's willingness to repeatedly forgive makes him seem more ludicrous and undignified than Charlie Brown trusting Lucy to hold the football for a place kick once again. Apparently God's love for us is so strong that he is willing to appear the fool.
It seems as if God is infinitely patient with repeated sins yet completely uncompromising with the definition of sin. Often I wonder if this is really the case, for it seems both to good to be true and preplexing beyond all understanding. Jesus' parable of the tax-collector and the pharisee reassures me that God is unwilling to redefine right and wrong but that God is willing repeatedly forgive even the worst of sins.
Posted by: Richard Wan at June 13, 2004 3:14 PMExcellent post, Richard. Thanks for sharing.
God bless,
Jay
Get a life! Masturbation is a gift from God. Plus, it feels really, really good. Stop pretending you don't do it...we all know you do.
Posted by: Me at July 26, 2004 9:14 PMGet a life! Masturbation is a gift from God. Plus, it feels really, really good. Stop pretending you don't do it...we all know you do.
Posted by: Me at July 26, 2004 9:15 PMOnly for those with better imagination than looks . . . just kidding.
A "gift from God", huh? Where do you get that? Is everything that "feels really, really good" a gift from God? I think that's a dangerously naive point of view.
If you care to defend your position, please let me know what proofs you have that this is a "gift from God."
God bless,
Jay
To whom it may concern,
I know a friend who confess that he has this habit, and he is addicted to it (up to five times daily).
Lately he told me that he does it homosexually, and that sure was shockong.
Is there anything I can do to turn him heterosexual, and to make him stop that habit? I really do care about him...
HELP!
Embarresed...
P.S. If you DO have a solution, please reply by email.
Posted by: Embarresed... at August 2, 2004 6:16 AMCatholics...please you people need to come out of the dark ages! Get rid of your crucifixes, Christ came off of the cross, He's not still on it, when He died the veil of the temple was torn in two, doing away with the need to confess to a man our sins and overall your organization is probably the most sinful, corrupt organization there is, your filled with homosexual, child molesting priests and then you want your parishioners to pay extra to pay the attorney fees to get the sick low lifes off the hook! You think masturbation is a sin, yet you have bars in the basements of your churches!
Posted by: LaughingAtYou at August 10, 2004 10:46 AMCatholics...please you people need to come out of the dark ages! Get rid of your crucifixes, Christ came off of the cross, He's not still on it, when He died the veil of the temple was torn in two, doing away with the need to confess to a man our sins and overall your organization is probably the most sinful, corrupt organization there is, your filled with homosexual, child molesting priests and then you want your parishioners to pay extra to pay the attorney fees to get the sick low lifes off the hook! You think masturbation is a sin, yet you have bars in the basements of your churches!
Posted by: LaughingAtYou at August 10, 2004 10:46 AMCatholics...please you people need to come out of the dark ages! Get rid of your crucifixes, Christ came off of the cross, He's not still on it, when He died the veil of the temple was torn in two, doing away with the need to confess to a man our sins and overall your organization is probably the most sinful, corrupt organization there is, your filled with homosexual, child molesting priests and then you want your parishioners to pay extra to pay the attorney fees to get the sick low lifes off the hook! You think masturbation is a sin, yet you have bars in the basements of your churches!
Posted by: LaughingAtYou at August 10, 2004 10:46 AMCatholics...please you people need to come out of the dark ages! Get rid of your crucifixes, Christ came off of the cross, He's not still on it, when He died the veil of the temple was torn in two, doing away with the need to confess to a man our sins and overall your organization is probably the most sinful, corrupt organization there is, your filled with homosexual, child molesting priests and then you want your parishioners to pay extra to pay the attorney fees to get the sick low lifes off the hook! You think masturbation is a sin, yet you have bars in the basements of your churches!
Posted by: LaughingAtYou at August 10, 2004 10:46 AMCatholics...please you people need to come out of the dark ages! Get rid of your crucifixes, Christ came off of the cross, He's not still on it, when He died the veil of the temple was torn in two, doing away with the need to confess to a man our sins and overall your organization is probably the most sinful, corrupt organization there is, your filled with homosexual, child molesting priests and then you want your parishioners to pay extra to pay the attorney fees to get the sick low lifes off the hook! You think masturbation is a sin, yet you have bars in the basements of your churches!
Posted by: LaughingAtYou at August 10, 2004 10:46 AMCatholics...please you people need to come out of the dark ages! Get rid of your crucifixes, Christ came off of the cross, He's not still on it, when He died the veil of the temple was torn in two, doing away with the need to confess to a man our sins and overall your organization is probably the most sinful, corrupt organization there is, your filled with homosexual, child molesting priests and then you want your parishioners to pay extra to pay the attorney fees to get the sick low lifes off the hook! You think masturbation is a sin, yet you have bars in the basements of your churches!
Posted by: LaughingAtYou at August 10, 2004 10:46 AMLaughingAtYou,
Wow, what a persuasive argument! You managed to mock Christ without a single valid Biblical reference. Are you suggesting that your interpretation of the veil being ripped is more accurate than the interpretation Jesus' disciples had of that event? Did you know that a higher percentage of protestant pastors are child molesters than Catholic priests?
If you want to intelligently discuss these issues, let me know. Until then, laugh all you want - ignorance is bliss.
God bless,
Jay
Interesting article. Obviously written by a woman. She doubts that the vast majority of guys have engaged in masturbation at one point in their life. I've grown up my entire life around all different kinds of christians (baptist, catholic, protestant, etc...) and I've yet to known a guy who claimed he never had masturbated. I respect the church but to put the church on the same level of authority as the Bible is dangerous. The church is to be our venue of fellowship in the body of Christ...not to be our personal relationship with Jesus...we are to have a personal relationship with Jesus. Not lean on someone else's understanding all the time. Point being...the Bible doesn't really say anything about masturbation that can be conclusive one way or the other. I'm sure God is lenient to put up with our varying points of view...hence he is a forgiving God. Either way...there are way more sins in this world that we don't address that Bible speaks openly about..gossip for starters not to mention just calling someone a "fool" is a sin. In conclusion you should have reviewed Dr. Dobson's article with more of an open mind. Not nescesarily agreed but neither so judgmental of something the Bible doesn't even address.
Posted by: KJ at August 24, 2004 7:59 AMKJ,
Actually, it's the Bible that puts the Church above itself. In several places the Bible refers to the Church as the "pillar of truth" or the place where "the wisdom of God is made known". So be careful - God created the church to lead us. Jesus didn't even ask that a Bible be written, but He did found a church in Matthew 16:18.
Your argument seems to be "I enjoy this sin, so let's hope God doesn't care." Or "everyone else does it (I think), so it can't be a sin." Both are invalid and silly. At the least, masterbation involves lust, which I think everyone can agree is a sin. At its worst, it breaks the Ten Commandments and destroys the intimacy of man and wife. We are not animals and we can control our lusts. Our job on earth is to become like Christ; are you arguing He masterbated while on earth? Think about it.
God bless,
Jay
Jay,
Please provide some sources for your rhetorical question, "Did you know that a higher percentage of protestant pastors are child molesters than Catholic priests?"
While a father of a 14 year old boy, I have some recent and very relevant experience with this subject. Ask yourself the question again when you learn that he's downloading explicit photos from google searches using his mobile phone. I had about the same conversation that Dr. Dobson suggested regarding the masturbation. The explicit photos on the other hand is a different story. Read some of the horror stories of some fellow sinners that have become addicted to explicit photos and subsequently become so desensitized that sexual relations with one's spouse is no longer possible.
I'm not certain that all lustful thoughts are sinful. For example, fantasizing of one's wife. A couple homemade glamor shots, a "Thinking of You" Card sprayed with her perfume, and reflecting of last night's sexual encounter could reasonably activate the normal male launch sequence. Subsequently, masturbating under those circumstances doesn't necessarily lead to any sinful act except perhaps "spilling the seed".
Spilling the seed happens quite frequently, with or without masturbation. Testing was accomplished on several young mens undershorts to determine how clean they may be. The results were reported in a video where several of the young men had traces of semen among several other things in them. While they could have been lying, several of the young men denied masturbating even after the presence of semen was detected. Some even admitted to doing it on other occasions and couldn't fathom how it would be in that specific pair of shorts. Since this is not controllable there is no way that this can logically be considered a sin, at least when unintentional.
Thankfully, most of us in this discussion are probably saved. Let's not forget that, remember what that means and remember to encourage all those who may not have taken that step, to do so.
Posted by: Jarrod at August 25, 2004 9:13 PMJarrod,
First, here are some good articles that also cite sources for some of my data. You're correct - I should have included the research I did on this subject, but for some reason I didn't!
- Priests and Celibacy. Cites stats and studies.
- It's not about Celibacy. Mentions another study.
- Myth of the Pedophile Priest. More studies.
When I wrote this article on Catholic Priests and Sexual Abuse I had a list of studies on the subject, but I can't seem to find it. If I do find it, I'll post it for you.
Now onto your other issues. I would contend a couple of things. First, the sexual act is one of giving. When having sex, we are giving ourselves over completely to the other person in a true sense. This is why sex outside of marriage is wrong; if you haven't made a permanent, lifelong commitment to your spouse, it is impossible to completely give yourself to your spouse in this way. We believe that through sex the two become one - our love is so real that it can create a child with an eternal soul.
This also gets at the problem of masturbation. When we masturbate, we are not giving ourselves to another, but simply imagining another personal as a sexual object, an object we use solely for pleasure. This diminishes our relationship with the other person and reduces the sexual act to one of animal lust, rather than a gift of humanity. It also contradicts natural law by ignoring the complementary nature of man and woman and the dualistic reality of the sexual act. In other words, sex was designed to be between a man and a woman and this is the only way it can be fruitful. If masturbation is okay, why isn't homosexual sex? I would suggest that both violate natural law (which is the law God instilled into nature) and thus are sinful.
Semen is not holy (e.g. Monty Python). So "spilling your seed" is not sinful in itself. Onan wasn't killed for this, he was killed for practicing birth control - he essentially pulled out in order to prevent pregnancy (he tried to act in the place of God - only God decides whether the womb will be opened or not).
Hope this helps to explain the Catholic position.
God bless,
Jay
I stumbled across your discussion, and while I disagree with Dr. Dobson, I fail to find the discussion of masturbation as a sin to be relevant in general.
Whatever Onan's mistake, he was a sinner anyway. We all are. Why should one sin be targeted differently than the others? Every single person on this earth will fall short of God's mark. That's why Jesus was sent to die for us in the first place.
My problem with Dr. Dobson's comments, and hence with many of the responses posted, lies with the attitude of not talking about it. We all too often ignore issues of sexuality with our teens. If we aren't talking with them as parents, pastors, and youth workers then the only source they will have for information is what they get at school--a "how to" manual about parts and plumbing in health class with no moral or ethical guidance and the twisted conversations in the locker rooms with their peers. Honest conversations about sex are important for every young person. Perhaps we need to stop arguing about whether or not Onan's sin was masturbation and if God has a problem with "wasted seed" and instead focus on how what we view as sinful and taboo is affecting the young people we are in minstry with.
Michelle
Posted by: Michelle at September 9, 2004 5:17 PMMichelle,
Just wanted to point out this article showing that there are different levels of sin. We should be conscious of the fact that certain sins are more serious than others and, thus, should be addressed more directly.
God bless,
Jay
If anyone does proper research they will discover that masturbation is not a sin but a gift of God for all people to enjoy the 50 health benefits.
The lies have been exposed and the Bible verses taken out of proper Bible culture and Bible time context.
Take time to research the facts.
Masturbation For Good Health
... bad rap First came the misunderstanding of the biblical passage related to Onan
whose sin was not masturbation but not impregnating his dead brother's wife. ...
www.libchrist.com/sexed/masturbation.html
MasturbationIsNotSin
Is masturbation a sin? It is very clear that masturbation is very healthy and a gift of God. Just like sexuality is a gift of God. The same sexual: lust, fantasies, thoughts, are use in both. NOT ...
http://christianmasturbation.homestead.com/MasturbationIsNotSin.html
BillMcGinnisMasturbationGoodNews
Is masturbation a sin? It is very clear that masturbation is very healthy and a gift of God. Just like sexuality is a gift of God. The same sexual: lust, fantasies, thoughts, are use in both. NOT ... 3 "Good News For Many People: Masturbation Is Not A Sin" ... Good News For Many People: Masturbation Is Not A Sin. Here is good news for many people: private ...
http://christianmasturbation.homestead.com/BillMcGinnisMasturbationGoodNews.html
Frequently Asked Questions: Is Masturbation a Sin?
Is Masturbation a Sin? The only mention of masturbation in the Bible would possibly be Lev. 15:16-18, 32-33; 22:4 and Deut. 23:10-11. It is interesting to notice that none of these passages refer to the emission of semen as a sin. ... I would conclude, therefore, that masturbation is not a sin and is no more regulated in the Bible ...
http://www.theology.edu/faq08.htm
The Adults Only Sex Page
... the e-mails we get at FreeChristians. ... life, not a sin or something to be suppressed. And I urge all Christians to stop opposing masturbation as "a secret sin .
It is time Christian ministers and preachers give up altogether the renunciate paradigm and adopt instead the Jesus Ethics paradigm, under which, normal human behaviour like masturbation can be seen for what it really is, NORMAL and HEALTHY...
http://freechristians.com/Sex_Page/adults_only_sex_page.htm
http://freechristians.com/Sex_Page/masturbation.htm
Masturbation fundamentally healthy practice, not sinful
Application of the Critical Theory "Masturbation fundamentally healthy
practice, not sinful". By Evan Majors. "Starting as young as ...
http://www127.pair.com/critical/food-03.htm
Good News For Many People: Private Masturbation Is Not A Sin
... Private Masturbation Is Not A Sin. A Service Of BILL McGINNIS MINISTRIES/www.ChristInTheWorld.org. ... Good
News For Many People: Private Masturbation Is Not A Sin. ...
http://patriot.net/~bmcgin/pearl-masturbation.html
Frequently Asked Questions: Is Masturbation a Sin?
... I would conclude, therefore, that masturbation is not a sin and is no
more regulated in the Bible than relieving oneself or menstruating. ...
www.theology.edu/faq08.htm
Pink Slip @ Scarleteen.com - Is Masturbation Okay?
... Plenty of scholars and religious leaders agree, Judeo-Christian and otherwise, that
masturbation is not a sin, for those whose religions include the concept of ...
http://www.scarleteen.com/pink/masturbate_2.html
Masturbation
... And please do not write to tell us that we are "justifying our own sin." These articles ... with,
their spouses to have any reason or desire to masturbate. ...
www.themarriagebed.com/masturbation.shtml
How did Masturbation become a 'sin'? - Sexuality - Teenage Boys ...
... 1600’s both the Roman Catholic church and the newly arrived Protestants were so
obsessed with the supposed sin of masturbation that it was not uncommon for ...
members.optusnet.com.au/~austbua/masturbation-sin.htm
SOLO - Fact & Fantasy About Sexual Self-Satisfaction
... How masturbation got its bad rap: First came the misunderstanding of the biblical
passage related to Onan whose sin, was not masturbation but not impregnating ...
www.proaxis.com/~solo/120798d.htm
MASTURBATION
... It means covet, and desire another’s goods or body, but does not suggest masturbation
to be sin. EXO 15:9 "Lust" in HEBREW #5314-15 is, breathing creature. ...
home.earthlink.net/~thogmi/jack/jack.html
Christians Who Masturbate
... stance on masturbation as a sin, the Roman Catholic Church continues to classify
the practice as mortal sin, along with any other sexual behavior that is not ...
www.jackinworld.com/library/articles/christian.html
WebRing: hub
... Masturbation is not a sin. Rev Bill McGinnis show from the Bible, that masturbation
is not a sin. ... Show that masturbation is a gift of God and not a sin. ...
p.webring.com/hub?ring=masturbationisa1
Salon.com Sex | Solo pleasure
... marriage. Masturbation is not husband-wife sex, so it's immoral, the
sin of Onan, who wasted his seed and was struck dead for it. ...
archive.salon.com/sex/ feature/2001/05/23/solo/index1.html
Wanking: the last taboo
... about sex (which obviously occurs during masturbation) is evil ... in the practice that
you have thought about or not. ... But the sin is not in desiring sex (since ...
www.certifiedmale.org/spring96/wanking.htm
SOLO - Fact & Fantasy About Sexual Self-Satisfaction
... However this does not condemn masturbation. Even a cursory look at this section
shows that the sin committed was disobeying a direct command of God. ...
www.proaxis.com/~solo/100198k.htm
masturbationnotsinlev1516
... Is Masturbation a sin? NO It is clearly not a sin in the Bible!! Is Masturbation a ... conclude, therefore, that masturbation is not a sin and is no more ...
http://www.inkaboutit.homestead.com/masturbationnotsinlev1516.html
ChristianMasturbation
Is masturbation a sin? It is very clear that masturbation is very healthy and a gift of God. Just like sexuality is a gift of God. The same sexual: lust, fantasies, thoughts, are use in both. NOT ... to show that masturbation is not a sin, but a gift of ...
www.christianmasturbation.homestead.com
inkaboutit,
This is the perfect example of a misunderstanding about sexuality. These days people are completely selfish when it comes to sex, to the point of dishonesty.
Sex is the gift from God. Sex is a mutual self-giving of one person to another - completely. It can only be a total self-giving if it is done within marriage, because only then have you made a lifelong commitment to the other person, which is necessary to completely give yourself to another.
Masturbation has several problems. First, you can't masturbate without sexual fantasies. It's impossible, so don't pretend you aren't committing a sin anyway, even if you don't think masturbation is a sin (remember what Jesus said about your eye . . .). Second, masturbation is sexual gratification without marriage or a partner and uses another person as a sexual object (without their consent). You are objectifying others and removing their humanity when you have these thoughts - which is destructive to you personally.
For almost 2,000 years all of Christianity has agreed that sexuality devoid of the possibility of children (intentionally fruitless) is a sin. Only now in our post-Christian, hyper-sexual age have people decided that contraception and masturbation aren't sinful. Are you arguing that God thought this was okay for 2,000 years and we're just figuring it out?
The whole problem here comes from a contraceptive-mentality and how it destroys our understanding of sex. Whenever we try to "play God" and enjoy the benefits of sex while rendering it infertile (contraception, masturbation), we are sitting in Onan's shoes and committing his sin. I highly recommend you read the comment above by Richard Wan where he explains specifically what Onan did. Perhaps you'll understand better why masturbation is condemned in this same act.
I'll pray for you. Masturbation is addictive and can be very difficult to stop. Remember the key: don't allow yourself to fantasize sexually (which no one argues isn't a sin).
God bless,
Jay
Here's my question,
what if you masterbate while thinking about your wife? The lustful thoughts are of the woman you married & not another woman that you are lusting after. And what if you actually never deprive your wife by masterbationg,becasue perhaps you only masterbate while thinking of her,when she's not available or home. But you indulge in sexual pleasure with her regularly when you are together? How is that a sin? What if I just have a huge sexual labido?
Here's my question,
what if you masterbate while thinking about your wife? The lustful thoughts are of the woman you married & not another woman that you are lusting after. And what if you actually never deprive your wife by masterbating,becasue perhaps you only masterbate while thinking of her,when she's not available or home. But you indulge in sexual pleasure with her regularly when you are together? How is that a sin? What if I just have a huge sexual labido?
Curios,
The problem is that you are objectifying your wife. Her function on earth is not to satisfy your sexual desires, but you are imagining her as merely a sexual object, essentially "using" her. Does this make sense? Sex is a sacred act within the correct context, but when you use it outside of God's design (the natural order of things), then sex is not a giving of yourself to your wife, but a gratification of your lust (these are still lustful thoughts and therefore sinful).
God bless,
Jay
>>>>>>Jay said >>>>>>>Sex is the gift from God. Sex is a mutual self-giving of one person to another - completely. It can only be a total self-giving if it is done within marriage, because only then have you made a lifelong commitment to the other person, which is necessary to completely give yourself to another.
******Inkaboutit reply*****Masturbation is a gift from God for all people to enjoy not just a few happily married people. Most married people have different sex drives. Many times a low sex drive person marries a high sex drive person. A mismatch. Many people never marry and other are handicap, young children, divorce, separated, on travel away from spouse, and other situations. Partner sex is wonderful but many are left out of that. But God gave solo sex to all people as a gift.
In Lev 15: 16-18 that would have also included sexual fantasies that were not a sin neither then and is not today either. Loving Sexual fantasies are very normal and very healthy and a very important part of God sexual plan for humans. Loving sexual fantasies are not evil or a sin. We are judged by the law of love.
>>>>>>Jay said >>>>>>>Masturbation has several problems. First, you can't masturbate without sexual fantasies. It's impossible, so don't pretend you aren't committing a sin anyway, even if you don't think masturbation is a sin (remember what Jesus said about your eye . . .). Second, masturbation is sexual gratification without marriage or a partner and uses another person as a sexual object (without their consent). You are objectifying others and removing their humanity when you have these thoughts - which is destructive to you personally.
*******inkaboutit reply*******You take Mat 5:28-30 out of context and out of Bible culture and out out the situatation that was going on at the time. Most of of the Sermon on the mount was not even intented for Christians. We can see that The first 12 verses were to his disciple then after that we most was talking to the legalistic holier then thou Jewish leader that where trying to work there way to heaven.
In the Gospels Jesus was living under the law. He was a Rabbi with 12 students and other Rabbi would check in to heard what Jesus was teaching his disciples. Jesus talked totally different to the legalistic Jews then he talked to Close followers. When the Jewish leader were around they talked about the law. But when Jesus was alone with his Disciple he try to teach them about age of grace.
If you over look this fact then a lot of legalism will get into the church like it has. Many people over look this and are try to live under the law just because Jesus said it and ignore who Jesus was talking to. Who Jesus was talking to was very important to determine if he is talking about the law to holier then thou Jewish leader who were trying to caught Jesus saying something that was not in the law and accuse him so they could kill him for some heresy. That is what was going on in the Sermon on the mount. It started out with 12 and at the end there was a great number. Many were Jesus enemy trying to catch him saying something against the law.
You misunderstand Matt 5:28-30.
Masturbation, wet dreams and sex with your partner and the sexual thought involve is not adultery. If it was, it would have been a sin in Lev 15:16-19 and it was not. They had the same sexual thought that we would have today. You total misunderstand the context and situation of Mat 5:28-30. Loving Sexual fastasies are not evil they are an important part of God sexual plan and without them God’s sexual plan would not even work at all.
How a Christian man can Masturbate sin-free, lust-free, Guilt- free. http://inkaboutit.homestead.com/1111.html
Matt. 5:28 is totally misunderstood and taken out of context. "look at a women with lust...adultery" http://inkaboutit.homestead.com/Lustmt528.html
>>>>>>Jay said >>>>>>>… Second, masturbation is sexual gratification without marriage or a partner and uses another person as a sexual object (without their consent). You are objectifying others and removing their humanity when you have these thoughts - which is destructive to you personally.
*******inkaboutit reply*******masturbation is no more selfish then eating food or drinking water by your self. Or going to the toilet in private by yourself.
we need to love other as we love we ourselves. Masturbation is loving yourself wishing you could love another and loving God for giving wonderful sexual gift with over 50 healthy benefit and making solo sex so much fun. All glory goes to God the designer.
>>>>>>Jay said >>>>>>>… For almost 2,000 years all of Christianity has agreed that sexuality devoid of the possibility of children (intentionally fruitless) is a sin. Only now in our post-Christian, hyper-sexual age have people decided that contraception and masturbation aren't sinful. Are you arguing that God thought this was okay for 2,000 years and we're just figuring it out?
*******inkaboutit reply*******This is wrong. Anyone who looks at the history can show this statement incorrect. No where in all the Bible no one says that masturbation was a sin at all. No one. They had much less hang up over nudity and sex then we religion people today. They worked, play sports, swim, fished, baptise all in the nude. The over 150 bath houses were nudist and the Church building was connected to these buildings in the early church time. You have not even taken the time to study the history.
The Cause for a great deal of the sexual negativity in our culture. When did sex became bad? http://thinkaboutit.homestead.com/gnotic.html
Who, when, and How Sex Was Made A Sin?? http://inkaboutit.homestead.com/madesin.html
The false Gnostic ideal that sex was a sin or evil was forced into the Christian thinking and is kept there by taking the Bible verses out of context. http://inkaboutit.homestead.com/gnosticlie.html
How did Masturbation become a 'sin'? - Sexuality - Teenage Boys ...
... 1600’s both the Roman Catholic church and the newly arrived Protestants were so
obsessed with the supposed sin of masturbation that it was not uncommon for ...
members.optusnet.com.au/~austbua/masturbation-sin.htm
>>>>>>Jay said >>>>>>>… The whole problem here comes from a contraceptive-mentality and how it destroys our understanding of sex. Whenever we try to "play God" and enjoy the benefits of sex while rendering it infertile (contraception, masturbation), we are sitting in Onan's shoes and committing his sin. I highly recommend you read the comment above by Richard Wan where he explains specifically what Onan did. Perhaps you'll understand better why masturbation is condemned in this same act.
*******inkaboutit reply*******The story about Onan in Gen 38 is not even about masturbation at all. You totally misuse the Bible and take it out of context. The misuse has been expose long time ago by many people.
SOLO - Fact & Fantasy About Sexual Self-Satisfaction
... How masturbation got its bad rap: First came the misunderstanding of the biblical
passage related to Onan whose sin, was not masturbation but not impregnating ...
www.proaxis.com/~solo/120798d.htm
The Adults Only Sex Page
... the e-mails we get at FreeChristians. ... life, not a sin or something to be suppressed. And I urge all Christians to stop opposing masturbation as "a secret sin .
It is time Christian ministers and preachers give up altogether the renunciate paradigm and adopt instead the Jesus Ethics paradigm, under which, normal human behaviour like masturbation can be seen for what it really is, NORMAL and HEALTHY...
http://freechristians.com/Sex_Page/adults_only_sex_page.htm
http://freechristians.com/Sex_Page/masturbation.htm
Frequently Asked Questions: Is Masturbation a Sin?
... I would conclude, therefore, that masturbation is not a sin and is no
more regulated in the Bible than relieving oneself or menstruating. ...
www.theology.edu/faq08.htm
Wanking: the last taboo
... about sex (which obviously occurs during masturbation) is evil ... in the practice that
you have thought about or not. ... But the sin is not in desiring sex (since ...
www.certifiedmale.org/spring96/wanking.htm
Jay,
I just went to Inkaboutit's webcite. Let's just say that there are a lot of whackos out there on both sides of the fence. I wouldn't use this as a point against Protestantism. Otherwise I may have to point out the equally whacky webcites from the Catholic perspective.
In Christ,
Thomas
Posted by: Thomas at September 23, 2004 8:12 PMThomas,
The difference is that a Catholic spouting this stuff can't claim they are living out their faith - this guy can claim the Holy Spirit lead him to believe this. He can suggest he is the equivalent Scriptural and moral scholar of St. Thomas Aquinas . . . and no one can say he is wrong. Why? Because sola scriptura sets up every man as the final arbiter of his own understanding of Scripture. Correct?
God bless,
Jay
Jay,
Please tell me what the Church believes I Cor. 2:6-16 actually says then. Keep in mind that Paul did not write this letter to the Pope and the magisterium. Whether we abuse this gift is another story entirely.
In Christ,
Thomas
Posted by: Thomas at September 24, 2004 5:23 PMThomas,
Sorry for the delay in responding - we've been extremely busy.
Going into the Corinthians you bring up, I'm a little confused. This is, after all, a section of Corinthians specifically dealing with division (or a lack of unity) among Christians, which is a permanent problem among protestantism (See the start of chapter 3).
I believe you are trying to say we have the Holy Spirit because we are Christians, which I agree with. But if you are trying to take that further and suggest that the Holy Spirit perfects your interpretation of the Bible, you've gone way too far (if so, the current state of protestant churches would suggest the Holy Spirit has failed miserably). You specifically note verse 12, which says we can understand the "gifts" (which are spiritual gifts given to those already baptized and confirmed, not the ability to infallibly interpret Scripture).
Let me know if I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to do with this verse.
By the way, I wanted to bring up something else. You said that you believe it is possible for the entire Christian community to err for 2,000 years and finally get something correct (I think you were noting contraception). So either (1) the Holy Spirit does a terrible, terrible job of leading us to the truth or (2) the truth is changing. Right? Which is correct? I think this might be the silliest argument you've made yet, since there is no reasonable way you can hold to it without disparaging God or making truth changable (in which case it is not really truth or really infallible).
You noted that Sir Issac Newton was wrong: why can't Thomas Reynolds be wrong? And what proof do you have that you are right (other than your own fallible interpretation of Scripture). For example, you suggested that the Holy Spirit wouldn't kill someone, like a pope, to protect the Church and you were incorrect (Acts 5). How do you know you aren't incorrect in other areas?
God bless,
Jay
Jay,
I'll make this short. Verses 12 and 16 specifically states that we as Christians can know the mind of God through the Holy Spirit giving us the mind of Christ.
There is Truth, and the Holy Spirit doesn't do a terrible job at leading us to the Truth. The Holy Spirit always points to the Truth of God. We as fallen humans do a terrible job at following the Holy Spirit's lead. Once again the Holy Spirit doesn't demand that we follow, nor is its leading irresistable. Unfortunately, we repeatedly refuse to be guilded by the Spirit, sometime even when we think we are. However, we should keep plugging away until we get it right, or until the Day of Christ. I don't see how this is a contradiction or "silly" as you put it.
I will admit that I am wrong when I am firmly convince that I am wrong. Believe me I have been wrong on any number of things. One of those things was to think that I could just waltz onto this site and blow you all away. Instead you have challenged me and given me a pause to think about why I believe what I believe, and I'm not entirely sure that I have done the same for you. I still believe that I am right, but it is rather humbling. Speaking of humbling, another one of those things I admit being wrong about is the cocky and arrogant attitude with which I have posted items on this blog in the distant and recent past. I need to continually work on this, and I ask all of you for forgiveness. The humilty of Christ is the characteristic we as Christians should always attempt to put on. I just came back from a fabulous sermon on the beattitudes, specifically the "Meek will inherit the earth" one and believe that the Holy Spirit is convicting me in this area. Of course I could be wrong . . . ;)
In Christ,
Thomas
Posted by: Thomas at September 26, 2004 3:16 PMThis has been an interesting read, to say the least. First let me say that I am not Catholic; however, my personal views of human sexuality are very similar to that of Catholic doctrine.
As a woman and one who counsels other women in Godly behavior, I am wondering why so little has been said regarding self-gratification in women? Where do you stand on that?
My personal viewpoint is that it is wrong simply because of the word "self". I believe that as Christians we are all called to be servants to all, to deny self, to crucify our flesh, etc. When we indulge in "self-gratification", we do this to please ourselves, shutting out God and others.
Someone mentioned about having a strong sex drive. What about a woman who is widowed at an early age, one who has a strong sex drive, who is committed to sexual purity until marriage, who has such a strong sexual desire? What about a woman who, while sleeping, awakens in full sexual arousal? How do you counsel these issues in light of the Scripture?
How do you answer these questions with a scriptural foundation? Women's bodies are different, their responses are different, oftentimes fantasy isn't involved in the spontaneous arrousal.
These are very difficult questions to give a "thus saith the Lord" type of answer, but I firmly believe the Lord has left nothing unanswered -- the answers are in the Word for us.
Can you offer some insight how to counsel Christian women who feel guilt, shame, condemnation for this and need answers?
Thanks!
Posted by: Mary at November 15, 2004 9:55 AMhow about that! god will require a man to have sex with his dead brothers wife who he doesn't love, nor is he probably married to. if my brother dies, should i have sex with his wife to produce a child i don't want. every child has a right to be wanted. does the church require a man to raise up seed to his dead brother by engaging in intercourse with his widow? i don't think it does. but if god doesn't change then the church is doing wrong by not requiring it, that is if you believe literally that god would really require such a disgusting thing. it would be much better if the dead brothers family would help care for the widow until she marries again. what about the poor woman? what if she finds her brother-in-law to be disgusting? this silly law shows how little regard men had for women in old testament times. if it was wrong for onan to spill his seed on the ground how much more wrong was it to require him to produce an unwanted child? besides all that, no-one should be required to have sex with any-one else except the person they choose to be married to. i think you people need to start living in the 21st century. everybody masturbates, even you hypocrits who condemn it. there's not a one of you who haven't done it. priests do it, monks do it just like everybody else. please get a life and quit causing teens to commit suicide because of guilt for doing what comes natural. all primates masturbate. have you ever observed chimps at the zoo? they do it to. evolution has provided us with this option to help delay sexual intercourse in adolescents. people who don't believe in sex outside of marriage should be encouraged to masturbate so they don't cave in to temptation.
thank you.
randal
Posted by: randal ferguson at November 20, 2004 3:08 PMRandal,
You should actually study a little more before ranting about something like this. God didn't