At Mark Shea's blog they are discussing an interesting problem I've run into: how do you convince a non-Catholic that Homosexual Marriage is wrong?
First, you can't argue that the purpose of a family is to raise children, since by agreeing to contraception other Christian denominations have removed that aspect of marriage.
Second, you can't argue the intentions of God if they don't necessarily believe in God - or a concerned God at any rate (although this may work with other Christian denominations).
It's even tough to argue the purpose of the body because of the chilling effects contraception has had on our understanding of our bodies. So, what the answer? Is there a strong philosophical argument to be made against homosexual marriage if you aren't Catholic?
Join the discussion on his blog.
Jay
PS - If someone discovers the answer, please post it here as well!
UPDATE: Thanks to Jeff Miller at The Curt Jester for pointing out this link: Secularist Critique's response, which I think is very appropriate.
The Secularist Critique gave it good answer yesterday to this question.
Click here to see.
Yes, thank you Jeff for this link... the Secularist Critique wrote an interresting comment with very valid points. But I don't think he answers Jay's question because in the end he doesn't really offer an argument for the homosexual. I don't think the homosexual would agree with his reasoning, probably out of sheer denial.
I often ponder this argument myself because my industry subjects me to an unfortunate plethora of homosexual advocates. As a Christian, I feel an obligation to defend Christ and to witness somehow to each individual who's soul is in such grave danger. My question has always been "but how?". Usually, I try to listen to their story, hoping they will listen to mine. I've found the greatest tool in this circumstance is compassion and understanding. I want a solid argument however.
Trying to understand that whole "world", I've had quite a few discussions with gay men and women. I used to strongly oppose the notion that homosexualality was something one is born with. Now I'm just confused about the issue. I am certain that to act on homosexual feelings is wrong, but it seems that in argueing that many gay people defend themselves by saying "I was born this way, this is how God made me".
(One account comes to mind where a gay man claims to have been raised in a "normal" home but says he felt as young as four years old that he felt like a girl trapped in a boy's body.)
In my discussions, I've met many a sad soul that have endured circumstances such as rape or other abuse that seems to have "forced" (they might say) them into a homosexual lifestyle. Thus concluding that they are victims of circumstance, not some biological explaination.
I'm sorry to go off on a tangent, but to me the root of the homosexual marriage issue is homosexuality. (duh!) One wrong makes the other irrelevant. Still, in battling an issue, sometimes it's effective to start at the end rather than the beginning.
So, while we're on the subject. Please help me! If any of you strong christians reading this have a suggestion, please comment.
Krista,
I would suggest talking to them about the nature of the human person. We must consider all things from two perspectives: (1) their essence and (2) their purpose or function.
So let us look at human beings.
(1) The essence of the human being - this is a very deep and very broad phrase. It factors in the intellectual, physical (or biological), emotional, and spiritual aspects of a man or a woman. To state the obvious man is a physical(or biological) being having a body and various structures and/or systems within that body (digestive, reproductive, nervous, etc). Yet the human being also has a mind that thinks and knows. Granted the mind uses the various biological systems to fulfill and express emotions and thoughts. Emotions are basically our feelings and/or tendencies toward or against something. Then their is the spiritual aspect of the human being that is the soul or the spirit. The soul, in the truest sense defines us, gives us life. We all experience the sense of immortality within us, just think about non-existence...it seems utterly impossible, yet, one day each of us will physically die. The soul is what lives on.
(2) Now let us look at the purpose and/or function of the various aspects of the human being. The intellect serves the human being in knowing and remembering. We learn to reason at a very young age. The emotions serve the human being in living the virtues and/or the vices/sins. It is through our emotions that we experience, we can know with our intellect that it is good to love our wife, but it is through our emotions that we express and feel that love. The soul is where we know and experience the eternal, in regards to ourselves and in regards to God. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
"In Sacred Scripture the term 'soul' often refers to human life or the entire human person. But 'soul' also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him, that by which he is most especially in God's image: 'soul' signifies the spiritual principle in man" (CCC pg. 93, paragraph 363).
Now we come to the physical(or biological) aspect of the human being. The biological or natural aspect of the human person has distinct functions within itself. We know(with our intellect) that the stomach digests food therefore it is a member of the digestive system. The spinal cord receives sensory information from the skin and muscles and integrates simple responses to certain kinds of stimui, therefore it is a member of the nervous system. Here lies the proof in the unnaturalism of homosexuality. The sexual acts of the homosexual person are contrary to nature in that one partner uses his/her sexual organs (reproductive system) to receive sexual gradification from the other partner's digestive system (the anus). In the case of females it is an entirely artifical sexual experience with no fulfillment of the sexual act. This defies the natural function of these members and/or systems of the body. In His infinite wisdom, God created the male and female bodies to be sexually compatible, thus clearly providing the definition of their intended functionality. So living out the homosexual or lesbian lifestyle, and the legalization of their union defies nature itself. God did not create a man to be sexually compatible with another man. The same is true for females. That is why St. Paul so adamantly condemns such behavior in Romans 1:18-32. The Catechism likewise supports this: "Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction towards persons of the same sex...Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that 'homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.' They are contrary to the natural law. The close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved" (CCC pg. 566, paragraph 2357).
The Church has always insisted on the use of the intellect and/or reason when considering such things. Emotions are inconstant and passing. If we can "know" that some act or behavior is unnature and/or sinful, then, regardless of what we feel, we must "knowingly" choose the good. To say that I was just born this way (homosexual), does not mean that it is so, in fact we can know that both physically and naturally it cannot be so. But let us again look to the Catechism of the Catholic Church for guidance on our attitude and action toward such individuals:
"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection" (CCC pg. 566, paragraph 2358, 2359).
The approach from the essence and function of the human person is logical and difficult to dismiss. Of course, timing is also crucial. I think you take a wise approach in attempting to win their true and friendship. Genuine love for our brother or sister always increases receptivity. Pray to the Holy Spirit for courage and guidance, He will show the appropriate time.
Joe
I'm beginning to believe that without some sort of "absolute" truth that you believe in, the argument can't work. As Chesterton wrote, if you believe in nothing, then you'll believe in anything, and this strikes to the core issue: does the person have any notion of right and wrong? Is there some starting point with which to engage them in a discussion?
At this point most people are woefully uneducated in philosophy, which means they must be taught to understand basic truths before they can see the picture of "the purpose of the person." I think the correct method is to ask the person, "Is there any absolute truth?" or "What do you believe is true?" and start from there.
Any thoughts?
Jay
Jay that is a good starting point, but I also think the natural function of the body which Joe stated in his comment is a powerful argument. Is there any other species which mates this way? Obviously God, or if you believe in Mother Nature didn't intend for us to exist this way by looking at creation as a whole. Another point which many suffering from homosexuality tend to justify their condition is the statement - well I was born this way. I just recently read an article in Family Foundations by Couple to Couple League which talked about the medical study which released scientific evidence to back this statement. Amazingly the man who conducted the study said it did no such thing and has been widely misunderstood. The study was conducted on adults and proved that their brains were wired towards this sexual tendency. Which gave the homosexual community the content they wanted to make the bold statement well I was born this way. However, the doctor pointed out that it is a known fact that sexual behaviors alter ones brain so the study was not conclusive proving that people were created this way because it was not conducted on infant brains of even young children for that matter. So basically the homosexual community has used this study to blindly confuse the rest of us. Contact www.ccli.org for more info or for the article. Either way to this day, there is no scientific evidence out there to support the statement - I was born this way.
Though I am a Catholic, I find this whole discussion appalling. If you are not homosexual and considering homosexual marriage why should it concern you if it is right or wrong? I believe the most important lessons we can take from The Bible do not surround what is sinful or pious, right or wrong, but the overal essence with which we should live our life. Was it not Jesus who said that whoever is without sin should cast the first stone? Though we were created in the image of god, we were also born of sin. Because of this, none of us is pure enough to debate such issues. Why not leave discussion of such an issue to God? I believe we are better off using our efforts and intelligence towards furthering social justice and the more positive aspects of our faith than those which alienate those with so much to contribute. Let us focus on bettering ourselves rather than worrying about the sin of others' acts.
Kelly,
Whether you like it or not, you have an obligation to "preach the gospel" and bring the Truth to others. It's easy to sit back and simply let others live their lives - it's also a sign that you just don't care what happens to other people.
God didn't create laws and rules for the heck of it, He gave us essentially the laws of life. By disobeying God's laws (natural theology) you bring loneliness, isolation, pain, and suffering down on yourself. If you want others to be truly happy, you must lead them to live a life in line with God's laws. So yes, we worry about a culture that ignores the spiritual repercussions of their acts and we constantly work to find ways of conveying Truth to those who don't accept God at this time.
Jay
Hello Everyone,
I believe you are all looking at the issue from the wrong direction, I believe everyone who is pushing for the normalization of homosexuality is looking at it from the wrong view point.
This is about sex, it is not about life style it's about sex, it's not about God or Country it's about sex.
As a young lad moving into puberty and you other young men know exactly what I am talking about. There is one thing and one thing only that drives us and that is the thought of sex, even though many of us had no idea what sex was.
In the hood where I grew up there were men who were homosexual, they were accepted as a part of the community everyone knew who and what they were. What everyone did not know was how these men prayed on young men. Those of us evolving into adulthood was offered a quick lesson in sex by these men. Many of the young men in my hood had their first sexual experience with these men. Being homosexual was taboo during this time so everything was under cover, whispered about, but never out.
Now what happens when being homosexual is a natural occurrence of life, that it's just a life style choose. At what age will young men began to make this choice? We must remember that the only reason as a teenager men did not have sex everyday was because the girls did not allow us to. Now we take the girl out of the equation, it's a matter of life style choice, experimentation. This is the battle that must be fought, the one that no one is willing to fight, it's too ugly and too true. Will you let your son sleep over at Johnnies who has two dad's.
I know I hear the argument that they are born that way, I say bull. Young men sell themselves to older men everyday.
We must also remember that and you can see it today that men are not very emotional and that they do not have to be in love to have sex. We can already see a sea change in the way women are treated in our society, we can already see young girls practicing homosexual act's at younger and younger ages. There was a report on Fox, there was an article in the paper yesterday about a 16 year old having sex with another 16 year old girl and she was worrier that she was not gay and did not love the girl and was worried about hurting her feelings. Dear Abby,s advice was to let her down slowly so as not to hurt her too much. Not why in the world are you having sex as a 16 year old, why are you having lesbian sex at 16 does your parents know? Do you go to church are you in school? No just be careful and don't break her heart just slowly stop showing affection and let her down slowly. WOW!
We have lost the war my friends.
Slouching Toward Gomorrah!
Clarence,
Things do indeed appear rather demoralizing. But remember the Lord's word to Abraham regarding Sodom: "For the sake of ten [righteous men], I will not destroy it." Genesis 18:32. The answer is neither depression nor, as Kelly would have us do, silence. Depression is an opening for Satan. Silence breeds acceptance of sin, which is unrighteousness. The answer is for ten people, one hundred, a million, and more, to stand against the rising tide. Living a life of purity and charity. Calling others to our Lord. For the sake of His righteous ones, God will spare us.
Also, remember that homosexuality is not the only perversion of sexual expression (though perhaps one of the most disordered). Adultery, fornication, pornography, contraception, and even abortion at its heart are all perversions of the beautiful sexual act. So many are separated from the Church that they have lost the understanding of what sex is.
The sexual act between a man and a woman is designed to reflect the deepest love among the Persons of the Trinity. A complete sacrifice, Father pouring Himself into the Son, Son giving every part of Himself back to the Father, and the procession of the Holy Spirit from that love. It is meant to be an act of utter self sacrifice for the benefit of another. Instead, human beings have made it a tool for self-gratification. They long to satisfy their most base and perverse desires, never quenching their insatiable appetites. In further selfish use of the act, they attempt to mitigate its wonderful purposes by utilizing contraception and abortion. In short, even in marriage the sexual act is something that is more about satisfying "me" than it is about surrender to "you". There are very few of us who would not benefit by reflecting and meditating upon our own deepest attitudes towards sex. Just a thought...
In Christ,
Dave