DeoOmnisGloria.com

I don't know about you, but that stat's about as shocking as the sun coming up in the morning.

No disagreement from me at all on this topic!

(But for the record, disagreeing with or challenging someone's theology isn't "persecuting" them. Otherwise you guys are "persecuting" Protestants!)

Russell,

Just to clear the record. I apologize if my paraphrase came across wrong under the previous article. I was simply trying to make the point that, similar to Saul (St. Paul), you are sincere about your opinions, but I truly believe, sincerely wrong. Any attempt to lead other away from the Catholic Church is leading someone away from the fullness of Truth and therefore inflicts the Body of Christ.

Your participation is greatly appreciated, I have enjoyed it. But I will issue you this challenge...you have made many points on this blog to which we have more than equally answered with Sacred Scripture, historical fact, and the writing of the Early Church Fathers. To these responses we have not received an answer rather you move to a different topic or avoid the issue.

So why is Catholicism wrong? Look at the world today. Look how strong the Church is, even in her weakness. Look how Protestantism is not being united and rising in strength, it is falling into ruin (200,000 denominations) We just want you to see this. So I invite you "come home to Rome, cross the Tiber, enter into that great mystery of Faith." I promise, you will not be disappointed (Can I get a rousing Amen from all the converts visiting this blog). Nothing has fulfilled my life as my Catholic Faith has done and continues to do. Read some of the writing of great converts like Cardinal John Henry Newman, Ronald Knox, Dr. Scott Hahn, G.K. Chesterton, St. Elizabeth Stein, and many more. EWTN, a Catholic cable channel, has a show called the Journey Home, where numerous Catholic converts give their testimonies. It is powerful. We are praying for you brother, we all want Christ's will to be manifested in your life, we are praying for your conversion.

Your brother in Christ,
Joe

AMEN! (there you go Joe!)
I, too, am praying for you Russell. "The truth will set you free" and it will open doors that you never even imagined! Before I even knew the depths of the Catholic faith, I professed,
" I will NOT convert to Catholicism. I have no desire"
Thank God His desire is stronger than mine.
I am confident that you are a man of great faith and love for Christ. There is so much grace waiting for us all in the 7 sacraments. If you search for truth with an honest and open heart, truth will find you and it is BLISS!
God Bless us all!

And about this article that Jay posted on abortion: If we follow God's commandments, we eliminate so much struggle and pain from our lives. To abstain from sex until marriage (a marriage founded on Christ and one open to life, open to His will) guarantees there is no unwanted pregnancy. Every child is a precious gift from God that we embrace and rejoice in!
I pray for all the innocent lives lost and for the souls of those who destroyed those lives. Wouldn't it be great if every unborn child awaited the same loving anticipation of its birth? Isn't that God's will?

And sadly enough these statistics don't even take into account all the countless babies aborted through the use of contraceptions inside and outside of marriage.
It is our moral obligation to promote chastity sex-based education programs for our youth and Natural Family Planning for our families.
May God have mercy on us.

hi. It's me again. :-)

I am at the point in my life where I tend to question a lot of things in an effort to only strengthen my faith.

Something that has aroused some curiosity is the topic of abortion.

I am currently taking an ethics class at my University and in one of the required readings, The Elements of Moral Philosophy (fourth edition) by James Rachels, he explained the history of abortion in the church.

Now I am completely pro-life, but as I said, I am questioning my beliefs to strengthen them and so I must question most aspects of my faith to make sure. I came across something very interesting while reading chapter 4, "Does Morality Depend on Religion?"

For any of you that have the book, on page 59, he starts explaining how it is very hard to derive certain positions on practices from solely the Bible. Abortion is the example he uses.

He explains "It is difficult to derive a prohibition of abortion from either the Jewish or the Christian Scriptures"(59).

He explains in opposition to abortion, people will cite Jeremiah in which God states "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you" (59).

According to Rachel's this passage (when looked at in context) explains "Neither abortion, the sanctity of fetal life, nor anything else of the kind is being discussed in this passage. Instead, Jeremiah is asserting his authority as a prophet" (60).

Not sure if I agree with that necessarily, but moving on.

Later, he explains that in regards to church practices, abortion has not always been condemned by the church.

Rachels states "St. Thomas Aquinas held that an embryo does not have a soul until several weeks in to the pregnancy"(61). This view was officially accepted by the church at the Council of Vienne in 1312.

However, Rachels goes on to explain in the 17th century, scientists used primitive microscopes to look at fertilized ova, and imagined that they saw completely formed, tiny persons, whom they called "homunculus."

So "if the embryo has a human shape from the moment of conception, then according to Aristotle's and Aquinas's philosophy, that it can have a human soul from the moment of conception"(61).

The church accepted the concept of "homunculus" and abortion was declared wrong. However, even though it was later discovered that the homunculus was a mistake, the church didn't change it's views.

Also, I have noticed that in the old Hebrew laws, to hit a woman and cause her to miscarry, a person must only pay what she is willing to accept, whereas the penalty for murder is much more severe.... thus it appears as though... (to some) that abortion isn't considered to be as bad as murder.

Thoughts? I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say about this because, well, I feel as though it's wrong, but I need to have some better reasons why now in my life. ;-)

Thanks for listening/reading.

The Christian appeal to the book of Jeremiah cannot be brushed aside as easily as Mr. Rachels attempts to do. Regardless of the context of the biblical passage, the statement itself manifests certain truths. Even though Jeremiah was establishing his vocation as a prophet (Isaiah also made this appeal, 49:1), the action of God is forming and knowing Jeremiah as a "being". God is stating clearly that He "forms". St. Paul supports this as well in Galatians 1:15 - "But when he(God) who had set me apart before I was born..." So now it becomes a matter of when does that union of soul and body occur. It occurs at the moment of conception. Rather than attempt to argue against abortion from the point of conception let's take a different route.

As rational thinkers we must act on what we do know:

1) Being proceeds action - we know that if left alone the action of conception and pregnancy is a human being...not a tree, or a dog, or anthing else. Therefore it is impossible for a medical doctor to pinpoint a specific point when the physical matter and the eternal soul are infused together, forming the human being.

2)Purpose of the act - Abortion's sole purpose is to remove that human life regardless of the technical points some would raise. So in truth it is murder...the mother does not want that life. No one goes to have an abortion for any other reason than to eliminate the fundamental elements that exist within the mother's womb that make up the human person.

In general natural law also needs to be considered when discussing whether or not abortion is murder.
An excellent book on Natural Law that I would recommend is, 50 Questions on the Natural Law: What it is and why we need it.

I will quote a section here in reference to Rachels' comments on St. Thomas Aquinas:

Hasn't the Church changed her position on abortion? Didn't Aquinas deny that life begins at conception? Anyway, is abortion always wrong?

The Catholic Church has always taught that all direct, intended abortion at every stage of pregnancy is seriously wrong (On abortion generally, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2270-75, pgs.547-549). The penalties imposed by canon law, however, have developed in accord with the growth of knowledge of prenatal development...

As for St. Thomas, he, of course, knew nothing of the ovum and the process of fertilization and gestation. His lack of modern scientific knowledge led him to conclude that human life began, and ensoulment took place, not at conception, but some time later, probably forty days later for males and eighty for females. Aquinas based his position on the science of his day, which we now know to be wrong. He concluded that abortion was not homicide until ensoulment, although he regarded abortion at every stage as a grave sin. "In his Commentary in Sentences of Peter Lombard, Thomas Aquinas taught that all abortions are a 'grave sin'...'among evil deeds'...and 'against nature'"(Comm. in Sent., Book IV, Dist. 31.

The reference to the concept of "homunculus" is wanting if not absurd in a university textbook if it is used in the context you have quoted. The development of science and the proving that "homunculus" was untrue doesn't support the idea that the Church's position on abortion should change. The idea of what the human being looked like in the womb doesn't change the reality of what is present in the womb...a human being. So is the Church's position unreasonable? No.

Another good place for sold information about abortion is the Priests for Life website:

www.priestsforlife.org

You can get a lot of information there. You are in our prayers and know that we fight this fight with you. We must work daily to end abortion and the foundation of that work is prayer.

In Christ,
Joe

I came across this site while doing a research project for school. I personally am not a christian but I fully respect everything all of you have to say. About those abortion stats of pre-marital sex v.s. sex after marriage, I just have one question: did any of you ever think about how many of those women or young girls were raped and/or sexually abused? I personally would have an abortion if my father raped me and got me pregnant or if I was raped by any man. I know all of you do not believe in abortion, but instead of condemning those that have them, maybe we all should try to stand together against rape and domestic abuse.

Kellie,

Thank you for visiting Deo Omnis Gloria.

To answer your question and comment:

"...did any of you ever think about how many of those women or young girls were raped and/or sexually abused? I personally would have an abortion if my father raped me and got me pregnant or if I was raped by any man..."

Yes, we have considered this. The actual percentage of abortions due to rape and/or incest is less than 1%. We do consider rape and/or sexually abused victims and think that such things are intrinsically evil and terrible. I personally pray for all victims of rape and sexual abuse.

I would like to remind you of one thing. The fact that such a terrible thing happens does not change the fact that it is a child that is in the woman's womb. That child is in no way responsible for that terrible act and has an individual right to live, just as that woman has a right to live.

This is not an easy reality, but it is true. That life in the victim's womb deserves to live.

Thank you again for posting. I will keep you in my prayers as well.

In Christ,
Joe

Joe,
Hey. Thanks for the reply.

Still though, in the Old Hebrew Laws... can you please explain the significance of those for me? ;-)

Thanks in advance. ANd I appreciate your keeping me in your prayers. You as well are in mine. ;-)

-Tontito

a child is a gift from God only when by election is it chosen to be born.'Romans 9:11' if God desires a pregnancy and the parents (married of course) decide that the child is truly a gift from God, then bring on the one-sies. on the other hand pre-marital sex, rape or possibilties of deformancies also play a part in reasons for abortions. God shows valuable lessons in everything, sometimes the pain and conviction of one abortion will drive the preverse and seductive demon or demons (the true cause of disobedience)out of a person completely because the person choses to let God operate on them because of the conviction they experience, which is horrible but a true fact. even in our mistakes God makes it right. children aren't for the unmarried, the raped or for satan's laugh at the God's ordained creation, so really it's a pro-choice situation with some very, very, very tough consequences.

Paul,
I would disagree completely. Explain to me how a child concieved by rape is at fault for the rape. If you cannot, how can you condemn the child to die? A child, as the Bible says clearly, is always a blessing. We are simply human and cannot know the mind of God. Perhaps the child of a single mother will discover the cure for cancer. You seem to be suggesting we just murder any child that didn't have the luck of being born to a family. Also, some children have deformities. This doesn't mean they are less human or have a lesser right to life. They are still created by God and do not deserve the infant death penalty.

Pro-choice is inherently anti-Christian. If God graces you with a child, you have no right to take the child's life. Period. There is no excuse that justifies it, Paul.

You point to Romans 9:11, but that actually goes against your position. Romans 9:11 shows that God has plans for our children even before they are born. There is nothing in the verse which supports abortion or the pro-choice agenda.

The Bible is clearly pro-life, Paul. There is nothing in it supporting pro-choice position. Abortion isn't a "learning lesson" as you seem to see it, rather it is the death of a child. It requires an amazingly self-centered approach to see an abortion as only affecting the one that decides on it.

Please reconsider your stance.

God bless,
Jay

jay,
you are right as far as i'm concerned with children being a blessing. but you had no response for the demonic spirits that can cause a child to be concieved either according to a person's sin. a single mother could be a widow or a woman that's artificially insemanated (by choice) on the other hand crack babies from crack addictions with abnormalities (possibly prostitutes), or possibly abusive parents who would never provide an environment for a child to be raised in are killing their children after birth and sometimes they blame our Father for that. they say that it's His fault that their child was born into this or allowing that child to grow-up alienated - never to know Who the Trinity is. what about the sexually active young adult who will doesn't know who the father is. i'm pro-life but there is a time and a place for everything, friend. sometimes God will get our attention His way. He made everything and gave satan dominion, the right to inflict and the right to effect from sin. if you are one of God's chosen this may never be a problem for you or maybe it will. you know they say it takes a village to raise a child but we don't live in that era anymore. a lot of the world lives from check to check and unemployment depends on if the CEO wants a new jet or not. i know people who are catching hell raising 3 and 4 kids alone with no child support because they believed abortion was wrong. will you help them with a light bill, phone bill, food, clothes, transportation, medicine, insurance, maybe or will you say she should have known better? i am blessed to have both of my parents but not that many are i know are fortunate. i am not a judge or the Judge, so what i say is what i believe, not what i think...God reconciled to us with Jesus and Jesus redeemed us who choose Him. but sometimes, just sometimes God gets our attention in a way incomprehensible to our understanding. i'm don't believe that abortion means you are going to hell, what i'm asking is after the abortion....does God have your attention now?

Paul,

You say that there is a time and a place for everything...implying that there may be a time and place for abortion and that that makes it okay. It is absolutely ridiculous that you would even suggest such a thing.

So if you are married is there a time and place to cheat on your spouse...?

Is there a time and place to torture your children...?

Is there a time and place to break into your neighbor's house and steal everything they own...?

Is there a time and place to practice homosexuality or beastiality...?

Is there a time and place to murder a man because he murders innocent babies through abortion...?

Do you see where your train of thought can lead...? It's dangerous and a perfect example of moral relativism.

There is no time or place for sin...period. Jesus Christ is clear on this throughout the Gospels.

EVERY child is a gift to this world from God, even the crack babies. We cannot see the end of person's life we have no idea what God may have in store for them.

Also, I'm not sure what you meant by your "demonic spirit" comment, but just for clarity....only God can create a child in the womb. I want to make sure we are all very clear on that.

In Christ,
Joe

dear joe,
read the book of Proverbs and then ask yourself all the questions that you desire for me to awnser, because what you are trying to do is trick me into awnsering why does the world sin and is there a time and a place for it. you are clearly talking about people who may or may not have a relationship to the Trinity. these people who commit these types of acts have a problem. speaking of demonic and perverse spirits, believe this friend.. Jesus picked the 12, they didn't pick Him. one of them was Judas who betrayed Jesus. satan entered who because why? Judas fell from the anointing of Jesus and his true nature kicked in. he was already a thief and murderer, a liar and a cheat, so demons entered him and caused him to what? reveal his true nature. you see Joe we all have a place with satan in the world if we chose not to believe in Jesus and we also have a place with Jesus and the Father if we chose the latter. so is there a time and a place for everything, yeah, you weren't always saved. what did you do before you knew Jesus, what are you doing now? sin didn't come from God it came from satan but who is strong enough to fight him? not you, not me. the Word says to rebuke him and he will flee. so at the time of temptation will you ignorantly fight him or use the power of the Holy Spirit and God's Word and rebuke him with power and authority? (at the right time at the right place)

Paul,

You make a fundamental mistake in your reasoning...

Sin does not come from Satan, but rather from humanity choosing the opposite of God's Will. Satan's own fall came from his denial to do the Will of God. Sin is a choice of every man and woman. We are the ones who chose not to obey God. The old cop-out "The devil made me do it" is just an excuse for our own actions. Satan cannot make any person sin. In the book of Genesis, he tempted Adam and Eve but they are the ones who disobeyed God thus falling from grace. Likewise, Satan tempted Jesus but he chose to obey God and stood firm. The same choice is given to each of us. We can either choose to obey God and not sin, or choose to disobey God and sin. It's called free will...read the Bible and then comment on this : )

By the way I've read the book of Proverbs and I still would like you to answer my questions above... Judas was not forced to betray Jesus, he chose to. Again, free will...

Thanks,
Joe

you're correct sin is an action. i believe sin is anything outside of God's will and purpose for your life, period. that's why when we pray we should always ask for forgiveness of our sins because we still sin when outwardly we are not aware of it. on the other hand satan was cast out of Heaven down to earth. at that time on earth lived the dinosaurs and other creations that don't exist today. the earth was covered in darkness and was formless and without void. darkness? God / light, satan / darkness. God told Adam, not Eve, do not eat from that tree, that tree, that tree. Adam told Eve do not touch or eat the fruit of that tree, that tree. key word touch. do you believe that satan was the serpent or do you believe that he possessed the serpent? he conned Eve into touching the fruit and she did not die, then she ate the fruit, she did not die. then she conned Adam who knew better because he was commanded by God Himself not to eat the fruit...God did not look for Eve, He looked for Adam. the man, the foundation of mankind on earth. so on Judas' behalf the Bible states that God says,"Judas is in his place". He didn't say Heaven or hell. if we go to Heaven and satan goes to the pit, where is Judas? yes, he fufilled his life's purpose but what judgement will he get? i believe that He (God) will surprise all of us.

It was still Adam and Eve's choice to touch and eat the fruit...period. Why didn't Adam say, "Eve we are not to touch the fruit remember?" He was silent and yet he had been given dominion over the Garden of Eden. Satan was most certainly present but he only tempted them, it was their action that resulted in sin.

In reference to your comment on Judas - So is that why Jesus said it would have been better for him (Judas) if he had never been born? I don't think we will be too surprised. If, as you seem to suggest, Judas fulfilled God's will, then the conclusion to that train of thought is that God willed sin and the greatest evil this world has ever seen...which is metaphysically impossible because God is all-good and there is no evil in Him. Granted through this act God wrought a greater good in the redemptive effect of Jesus' death but from the beginning God did not will the fall of man. Christ's sacrifice was a result of man's original falling into sin. If man had not fallen Jesus would not have needed to die for our salvation. That's a fundamental belief of all Christians.

In Christ,
Joe

I want to point out the main point of our dialogue here Paul. Abortion is morally wrong and a grave sin. It is one of the greatest evils of our time and there is never a time nor a place for it.

In Christ,
Joe

"the devil" made Judas, do it.

Paul,
Are you trying to say it isn't Judas' fault? I'm just curious. I would argue that although the devil may have tempted Judas, only Judas himself can ultimately be responsible for his actions. Judas made the decision, he wasn't forced to do it. The devil didn't possess him in order to make him do it. We are all responsible for our own actions.

God bless,
Jay

The Word says," then (John) the disciple who loved Him asked, who will betray you?" Jesus in return said," I will dip the bread and pass it, the one who eats it, is he." as they watched Judas took the bread and ate it, and the Word says the devil entered him immediately.......look in the book of John and read it yourself. no it is not Judas' fault but at the same time it was predestined in his life to be the one who would do this, as i have stated elsewhere; Jesus picked the 12, they did not pick Him. so did Jesus know that it was Judas, yes. read about it, He knew one of them was the devil, he just never said who. which brings up a good point, He called Judas, the devil.

Correction...again. Jesus called the 12, they chose to follow Him...again free will. What part of that concept don't you understand. If God forces us to do what He wants then He really doesn't love us, that is why the Catholic Church has always maintained that free will is absolutely necessary for God to be a loving God. Love is the gift that must be freely given and received.

The verse "Then after the morsel, Satan entered into him" refers to the fact that at that point Judas had completely given into the devil's temptation thus completely opening himself up to the devil. St. Augustine and other biblical scholars and Fathers of the Church have stated as much. If, as you continue to insist, God allowed Satan to control Judas against his will then God allowed Satan to destroy a human being's life, which in itself is evil, thus making God not only unjust, but ultimately evil. Again this is impossible.

You are a perfect example of why the Church is necessary. You sporadically come up with your own theology, though constantly inconsistent. This type of "faith" underminds basis truths of the Christian faith and ultimately leads to a faith based on an egocentric intrepretation of Sacred Scripture. It ignore tradition, history, and even Sacred Scripture, which clearly points to the traditions that are handed down. Notice that Jesus and the apostles continuously refer to Abraham, Moses, and the prophets.

If nothing else, I pray that God will one day give you the grace to see why He chose to establish the Church and why it is so necessary. Again, you wouldn't even have the Bible you use as your point of reference if it wasn't for the Catholic Church.

In Christ,
Joe

joe,
where's the love? Catholicism teaches that whatever the Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up, a single deposit as the Word of God; read Deuteronomy 4:2, Prverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19, Matthew 3:9 and Amos 2:4 i keep seeing this heirarchy word too, but again read 2 Timothy 3:15. Catholicism teaches that in order to preserve the Church in the purity of faith handed on by the apstles, Christ who is truth willed to confer on her a share in His own infallibilty....only Jesus is infalliable and in Galatians 2 Paul rebukes Peter for hypocrisy. and my God, purgatory come on either you go to hell or Heaven. come on God does not punish people by making them wait for an outcome on judgement whn they die, either you believed in Jesus or you didn't. "Faith", the belief of things hoped, not yet seen. Jesus saw people's faith and told them to stop their sinful ways since they had been exposed to the Truth. He didn't say that to play with their salvation, He told them because they believed in Him, not man. Jesus called (picked) the 12 by name and they followed Him because they were chosen by the Father who instructed Jesus up until His death on the cross when the keys of all Kingdoms where retrieved by Jesus for the sake of His righteousness making the devil the ultimate loser over the war of souls. as for Judas, we will see soon enough what happened to him. i was called by Him just like you, to believe by faith, not by sight. and if God calling us by name ain't Love enough after sending Jesus to die for us, then i don't know what is.

read up,
Paul

Paul,
Again, you fail to work free will into your train of thought. God calls each and every person, that is the reason for our existence. God's will is that all would be saved, but He created man with the ability to freely chose to love Him. That's why He commands us to love.

In reference to your comments on Catholicism...not sure I understand what you are trying to say there. Yes, Jesus is the source of infallibility, but He willed to confer that power onto His Church(Matthew 16). We have covered all of these issue in other posts.

I'm closing this post because we are straying too far from the original topic, which was simply the statistics on premarital sex and abortion. To wrap up, I would again like to point out again the grave evil of abortion and that there is never a time nor a place for it. We as Catholics have a moral obligation to fight this great sin of our time.

In Christ,
Joe