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Many times Protestants assume we "worship" Mary because they are missing the central part of worshiping Christ: the Eucharist.

Protestants typically define "worship" as "prayer" or "imitation." However, prayer is simply a conversation. As we've stated before, when Catholics "pray" to Mary they are simply asking her to assist them in getting to heaven.

Catholics would never hold a Mass where the body and blood of Mary were involved. Catholics only worship Christ through the Eucharist - this, after all, is worship. Prayer is just conversation (not to dismiss the importance of prayer).

Jay

For those Catholics who are reading this article and who might be wondering what the Church has to say now about devotion to Mary, I'll quote the Vatican Council II documents:

"The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. All her saving influence on men originates not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabudance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it"..."the practices and exercises of devotion to her recommended by the Church in the course of the centuries are to be treasured." (Lumen Gentium: 60,67)

In consideration of all the recent articles posted on this blog involving abortion and the pro-life movement as a whole, I would here appeal to an increased devotion to the praying of the rosary, especially as a family.

Our Blessed Mother, at just about every approved apparition, has told us to pray the rosary, for the rosary is the meditation on the life of Christ. Again, we see Mary pointing us to Jesus.

Joe

As an episcopalian I disagree about the previous comment about the Eucharist. The Eurcharist is central to episcopalian worship and I do not understand the Mary centric nature of SOME Catholics. I walked through a hispanic market the other day and there were hundreds of shirts, blankets, rugs, statues or the blessed mother and maybe 4 or 5 of the Son of God. I think there are plenty of people that keep Mary in perspective, but there are also plenty who I think may venerate her above where they should. I wonder if this is because Jesus is intimidating to them. I am not sure why.

Where in the Bible are Christians instructed to pray to Mary? Further, where in the Bible are Christians instructed to revere Mary? Jesus taugh us how to pray in Matthew 6:9-13. There is no subsequent revision by Jesus. Nor is prayer or reverence found in any other text or teaching by the apostles and disciples of Christ. Read the Bible and quit misleading people.

Kevin,

Let me allow Sacred Scripture to refute your statement:

"And Mary said, 'My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.'" (Luke 1:46-49)

Since this verse is in the Bible I would assume "all generations" would apply to all Protestants as well.

I would suggest reading Jay's most recent article on Sola Scriptura. It might help you to "quit misleading people".

Joe

I love Mary for the decision she made to be faithful and accept God's offer to be the mother of Jesus. Indeed, she, overcome by the power of the Holy spirit, gave birth to Jesus, our Salvation. But you talk about Mary as if it were HER and HER alone that was responsible for Jesus coming into this world. Did you ever ask yourself what would have happened if Mary said NO? Do you really think God would have been finished at that point? NO!! He chose Mary because of how holy and dedicated to Him she was, but IF she would have said no, God surely would have chosen another. We should love Mary for her role but the praise and honor go to Jesus alone. And she should NEVER be called "Co-mediator, Co-redemptrix"!! How blasphemous! Jesus does NOT need help!! All of our needs are met by Him. He is our great sufficiency. I don't fit in with Protestants because I think Mary was wonderful and holy, and I don't fit in with Catholics because of their unceasing desire to equate Mary with God's only unique Son and create the holy quartet instead of the Holy Trinity!!

Kathleen,
Mary is our mother, the Queen of the saints. She is not and never will be our God whom we adore and worship and obtain life everlasting. Catholics give her the honor Jesus desires for His Mother, she always directs our attention to her Son. If you really love Mary, do yourself a favor and read our other articles on the site regarding her. I also highly recommend reading Hail, Holy Queen by Scott Hahn.

WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT TALK ABOUT THAT MARY IS THE QUEEN OF SAINTS? PLEASE TELL ME.

Holloway,
Click here to read this article on the Queenship of Mary.

God bless,
Jay

thanks joe,
i can contend with your belief that Mary was a great woman chosen by God to do something awesome for mankind, to be the mother of Jesus on earth and that she would be blessed by it. i betcha if mother's day existed back then she would have been the most hated on woman in the world but i have to draw the line there...... there is no where in the Bible that Mary points us towards Jesus except in the sign of the wedding miracle (turning water to wine). Matthew 10:37-39 and 12:46-50. Jesus is all about the Father's business, Mary was needed no doubt, but again Jesus is all you need!

Paul

can a true follower of jesus talk to the death ? death saints or prophets ? can we christian practice necromancy ? Deutoronomy 18:11 "or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."

There are three definitions for the word you have chosen to use here to characterized praying to the Saints, I'll list them here.

Necromancy:
1) The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
2) Black magic; sorcery.
3)Magic qualities.

Now I'll respond to each definition:
1) Praying to the Saints is not communicating with the dead in order to predict the future. The form of prayer used is intercession. We are not asking the Saints to tell us the future, rather we are asking them to pray for us to Almight God.
2) Black magic is directly tied to the occult and the Devil. Asking the Saints to pray for us to Jesus Christ can hardly be considered black magic or socrecy, for it is seeking the good and ultimately serves a means of greater union with Christ and His Mystical Body.
3) Praying to the Saints can hardly be said to have magical qualities, rather praying to the Saints is an act of faith, an act of hope, and an act of love. An act of faith because it conclusively demonstrates our faith in Christ, life after death, and the Mystical Body of Christ. If we didn't believe in Jesus we wouldn't be asking the Saints to intercede to Him for us. It is an act of hope because we have firm hope that those who surround the throne of Almighty God, share His love for us and His desire for us to be with Him, so they will most certainly pray for us, just as we hope in the prayers of any friend or family member that prays for us on earth. It is an act of love because each time we pray to the saints we enter into greater union with them which is the ultimate pray of Christ (John 17:20-23), that we all might be one as He and the Father are one. Our unity brings glory to God and since this is His Will it is an act of love for God when we strive to bring this about.

I hope this helps to clear things up for you on this topic.

In Christ,
Joe

Growing up during the 40's as a Catholic, the church put a lot of emphasis Mary. What I was taught in those early days is that Mary was a very special person appointed by God to be the mother of Jesus. We were also taught as Catholics that praying to Mary was a good way of getting your prayes to Jesus faster and that coming from his mother, Jesus would be more willing to answer to answer them. We were suppose to honour Mary as well as other Saints(Joseph, Andrew,etc..). In summary, I dont worship Mary or any other so-called Saint. If I elect to pray to Mary, thats my own doing, Queen of all Saints, I dont consider Mary a queen But the mother of God. My prayes are directed to Jesus and I look in adoration to Mary.

where is the VERSE IN THE BIBLE that says
Mary can be asked for help for salvation,
The only scripture I read, is John 3:16
"For God so loved the World that He gave His
only Begotten Son,that whosoever believeth in
Him should not parish but have everlasting life."
also John 3:35 "He that believeth on the Son
hath everlasting life:and he that believeth
not the Son shall not see life:but the wrath of God abideth on him"
I cant find any scriptures where Jesus or the
Apostles even talk about the virgin Mary,
She was with them in the upper room when the Holy Spirit came upon them in Acts 2.

why didnt Jesus suggest that people honour His
Mother, actually I cant find any scripture
saying anything about this or even asking any
saints for help,instead He calls all that follow
him saints.

Marilyn,
Actually Jesus said to the beloved disciple "behold your mother" in John. This verse contains a lot of implications. I guess the first question is: do you believe you are a beloved disciple of Jesus? If so, this verse probably pertains to you.

By the way, protestants tend to stop reading John 3 at verse 16. I recommend you keep going to the part where it says we must be obedient - that's not as popular, I know, but it's still Scripture.

There are numerous other articles addressing this, so I'll refer you to them:

• Honor Mary - Honor God
  
• Blessed Virgin Mary and the Bible
  
• The Biblical Mary Part I
  
• The Biblical Mary Part II
  

God bless,
Jay

I'm not sure why our separated Brethren (Protestants) object so strongly to asking Mary and others that have also died in the Lord's friendship to pray for us.

Christians ask their Christian friends and relatives to pray for them. Christians believe that those who believe in Christ will live for ever even if they die. My grandmother prays for me often. No one objects to me asking my grandmother to pray for me. Why should objections to asking her to pray for me begin after she dies?

While I understand that Protestants may have doubts as to the effectiveness of asking Mary to pray for us I do wonder why they find asking Mary to pray for us so offensive to Our Lord.

We know we are to ask others to pray for us, we know that those have died in Christ are still alive, and we know that God often uses humans as agents for his mercy and blessing. How then can asking Mary to pray for us offend the Lord?

I can think of many reasons to refuse to enter the Catholic Church, but one I cannot imagine is this: "Asking Mary or those have died in the Lord's friendship to pray for me is just so offensive to Our Lord's dignity and so radically different from asking another to pray for me that I simply cannot bear with or tolerate it and so I will remain outside the Catholic Church both willingly and eagerly."

Cardinal Newman, pray for us.

The Vatican website was quoted earlier... I would like to quote it as well.
#17 at http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html
says to worship Mary.
If so many Catholics claim they do not worship Mary why does the Vatican say they should?

Also...
Posted in the very first comment by Jay was

"Catholics only worship Christ through the Eucharist - this, after all, is worship.

From a Catholic website I quote "The Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is the true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ hidden under the appearance of bread and wine."

So the bread is now the true body of Jesus and Catholics worship it as Jay said.

Now webster.com describes idolatry as the worship of a physical object as a god.

Even if you believe Jesus has fully embodied this bread - you are still worshiping a peice of bread.

Again as stated by Jay - you worship THROUGH the Eucharist. This would mean the bread is an idol (webster describes an idol as a representation or symbol of an object of worship).

Kasey,
Please point out where in the Vatican document it says to worship Mary - I've read it before and must have missed that. If you can provide a quote, we can discuss it.

Actually, when we worship the Eucharist, we are worshiping Christ. Christ said, "This is my body" and "This is my blood." He didn't say "this is like," but stated flatly "this is". He also said that if you do not eat His body and drink His blood, you have no life in you. This is all Biblical, so your problem isn't with Catholics, it's with God (who inspired the Bible and protected it from error).

I look forward to the quote.

God bless,
Jay

Kasey, thank you for your comment on idolatry. It finally makes it clear to me why the Roman Catholic Church insists so strongly that those who receive communion must believe, not only in the Real Presence, but also in transubstantiation. I have often had difficulty in explaining why the Lutheran and High Anglican ideas of consubstantiation are insufficient.

As you say, as long as the Eucharist is still bread, then worshipping it would be idolatry even if the Lord were present. This is precisely the Lutheran / High Anglican notion of consubstantiation.

The doctrine of Transubtantiation says that the Eucharist only appears to be bread but is in fact Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ - this is the only case in which Eucharistic adoration / worship becomes permissible. Kasey, thank you for giving me a new appreciation of a very old doctrine.

I see now why it is central to the Catholic/Protestant debate. For if the doctrine is false, people should leave the Catholic Church on grounds of idolatry and if it is true, people should join it so they can participate in the most profound act of worship possible in this life.

If Christ is the giver of life, and when we die we are united fully with Christ, would it not stand to reason that once we have died in Christ, we would be more alive then than we are now on Earth? How could necromancy possibly apply? We are ALL part of the body of Christ. Just a reflection from a seventeen year old.

I have watched many Catholics pray to Mary. I'm not sure where they learned this but God states to pray to him only.
Another question I have is why is it that only the Catholics have one person (the Pope) that is the head of the church world wide? No other church that I know of does this. Now this brings up the issue of the Catholics supporting the anti Christ. We all know that in the end times there will be one world religion, therefore since the catholics are the only church that has one person that the whole world looks to is this not the very religion that will be supporting the anti Christ? Think about it, sincerely, Nick.

First of all, did you actually read the article Nick...your initial comments leads me to believe that you probably didn't. Second, God commands us to only "worship" Him, which Catholics do.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make about the anti-Christ. Where in Scripture does it mention that the anti-Christ will be supported by the Catholic Church? Most of your fellow Protestant brothers and sisters insist that the word "Catholic" is a Roman or Middle Age term that isn't applicable to the early believers. Also, I didn't realize that in the end times there would be a world religion....where did you get that from? Finally, I can't imagine the Church that Christ gave the Keys of the Kingdom to being the same church that would in the "end times" work against Him...think about it.

In Christ,
Joe

Why stop at Mary? Why not pray to Job too, look what God says about Job: JOB 1:8 - And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is NONE like him in the earth, a PERFECT and an upright man, one that feareth God, and rejects evil? ...Some more food for thought, in Jeremiah 7:18, we read: "The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to ANGER."

Aaron,

Not sure what point you are trying to make... Why quote Jeremiah 7:18? No one here considers Mary or any other saint in heaven to be a "god", so there is no offering being made to invoke God's anger...

In Christ,
Joe

Joe, I suspect Aaron is quoting Jeremiah to condemn the 5th glorious mystery of the Rosary - the crowning of Mary as Queen of Heaven.

Protestants seem greatly disturbed by asking Mary and the Saints to pray for us because it resembles pagan pantheism. My gut response would be to ask Protestants why God condemns idolatry / making cakes to the Queen of Heaven. The two scriptural reasons that come to mind are: 1) the false gods do not exist and 2) the laws of the false gods do not submit to the Law of Yahweh.

These two objections do not apply to Mary and the Saints because they really exist and they have committed themselves wholly to the service of Our Lord. Furthermore I would argue that asking Mary and the Saints to pray for us resembles asking living friends and relatives to pray for us more than it resembles pagan idolatry.

I would go so far as to say that Jeremiah condemns making cakes to the Queen of Heaven (Ishtar/Ashtoreth) because Ishtar is the false Queen of Heaven while Mary is the true Queen of Heaven. This is starting to remind me of a certain group of people who considered Jesus a blasphemer because Jesus claimed to be the Son of God...

Broken Record, God is condemning the people for their dedication to a "queen of Heaven" in that verse, there is NO "queen" in Heaven, that's the point God is making in the first place. So, whether dead or alive, there's no "queen" in heaven. So, for people to repeat the SAME mistake TODAY that they did back then when they crowned "Ashtoroth" as a queen of heaven, then they would fall under the SAME condemnation by God for crowning Mary as a "Queen" of Heaven, too. If I pray to some "queen of heaven", whether dead or alive, not only is this idolatry, but I am also disobeying Christ when he said to pray directly to "OUR FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN". A queen rightfully sits on a throne next to a King, but there's only one throne in heaven, and Mary isn't sitting on it. KING of KINGS, not Queen of Queens. It's okay to pray for someone, but it's NOT ok to pray TO them. If I were to pray directly to Mary, I'd obviously be putting God on the sidelines. If people in the Bible were found praying to anyone other than God, they'd of been swiftly punished. This buisiness of praying to Mary is an unbiblical trend that started in RECENT centuries, and when Gabriel greeted Mary once, he wasn't chanting 70 repetitive prayers to her. Just because Gabriel said "Hail Mary" (hello Mary) once, it isn't grounds or permission to pray to her, and it doesn't mean she is worthy to pray to. God didn't say "This is my beloved Queen, in whom I am well-pleased, pray to her!" God has many HIGHLY favored individuals in the Bible that he called "blessed". Might as well pray to Abraham, Moses, Job, David, and Elijah, since they were all HIGHLY favored with God. Even when Michael appeared to Daniel, you'll remember that Daniel fell to his knees and bowed, yet Michael rebuked this action and said "Not so! get up, for I'm a fellowservant of the living God just like you, serve Him only". If Daniel had prayed to Michael at that point, Michael would have repeated himself and rebuked that action too. Mary would never have such a boastful ego in the face of God that she would appear to 3 girls in Fatima and bravely utter: "Only I can help you. MY Immaculate Heart will be YOUR refuge and the WAY that will lead you to God." Satan has an ego like that, and he's good at decieving people. Jesus said "I AM THE WAY.", or did he say "Mary is the only one who can help you, her immaculate heart is the only way, she wants reparations for sins against her, you must dedicate 70 repititious prayers to her! She will pray for you because you can't pray to God for yourselves!"

Joe and the rest of the Catholics:

If the Church isn't directly or indirectly teaching this Mary Worship stuff, they certainly have a very bad PR problem. It seems that everybody and their brother believes that they do including many former Catholics.

In Christ,

Thomas

Thomas,

You know, sometimes you really disappoint me...after all the lengthy discussions we have had on this topic, after the countless references to Church doctrines, the writings of the Early Church Fathers, the writings of various Popes, and, of course, Sacred Scripture itself you go and make a statement like that.... I would say that this only proves that most former Catholics never really knew their faith to begin with or they would still be Catholic.

My hope is that you have followed through on buying the Catechism, so that you can find out firsthand what the Church teaches and promotes. You and your family continue to remain in my thoughts and prayers.

In Christ,
Joe

Thomas,
So your ignorance (and the ignorance of others) is the Church's fault?

You could read literally anything the Church has written on Mary and become informed of the real position of Catholics. Just because you haven't doesn't mean the Church isn't doing her job!

Ignorance is bliss, apparently.

God bless,
Jay

Joe and Jay,

My implication wasn't that the Church was teaching "Mary Worship", but that the Church does indeed have a very bad PR problem, which it doesn't seem to have any desire to correct.

Joe you said, "I would say that this only proves that most former Catholics never really knew their faith to begin with or they would still be Catholic."

And who's fault is this if not the Church's?

I ask again

WHO'S FAULT IS THIS IF NOT THE CHURCH'S?

Why is it that so many Catholics have no clue about the Catholic Church actually teaches. Don't you think that at least some responsibility lies with the Church itself? The pillar and foundation of the truth indeed!

You have people who have grown up in the Church their whole lives and yet know little if nothing about the fact that Christ came to earth to die for their sins. They know nothing about the very GOSPEL that Christ commanded the Church to proclaim. These people, who in a very real sense worship Mary, are being condemned to hell thinking that because they have gone to Mass all their life, and pray to Mary every day, and because they had the lable Catholic attached to them at their christening, that they are by right going to heaven. When in reality this is nothing more than boundary marker religiosity, which is the very thing that Christ preached against.

All the while under its "faithful" watch, the Church leadership in its infinite wisdom sits back, knowing the truth and does nothing.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."

This is why even if the Church had every point of doctrine 100% correct (which by the way I do not believe) I still would still remain a Protestant. I refuse to bring up my children in an atmosphere of spiritual neglect, which seems to be very prevelant in the Catholic Church.

In Christ,

Thomas

An impressive Hyperbole Thomas!

The real Mary of the Bible would never allow someone to pray to her. Her humbled nature and obedience to the Father would strictly forbid ANYONE praying to her. She would never "crown" herself worthy to recieve prayers on God's behalf. Christ taught that in a wicked age (this one in particular), man would seek after supernatural signs & wonders, yet he CLEARLY emphasized that we would recieve NONE. And that means NO exceptions. This naturally cancels out ANY possibility of the visions of Fatima as being "signs" from God. Accepting the visions of Fatima would obviously be calling Christ a liar. Remember, Jesus said we would recieve N0NE in this day & age. Jesus said "Behold, I have told you all things beforehand." And He never made any mention to any "future prophecy" concerning his mother appearing to us. He only warned time & time again to beware of false signs & wonders, because they are from wolves in sheep's clothing, or directly from Satan. [MATTHEW 16:4 - A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after signs and wonders; but there shall no sign be given unto it.] [2 CORINTHIANS 11:14 - And marvel not; for Satan himself is disguised as an angel of light. Therefore, it is no great thing if his followers also be disguised as ministers of righteousness: whose end shall be according to their works.]

Doug L.,
Again, you make the big mistake of equating "prayer" with "worship." Do you talk to your friends? "Prayer" is a way of simply talking with a deceased person in heaven. In fact, old english retains this understanding of the term in phrases like "pray tell me." Prayer is not worship.

In fact, Mary loves us so much that she will pray for us, when we come to her. Those in heaven are not cut-off from those on earth (a cloud of great witnesses).

Also, you're saying Jesus said that in the 21st century there would be no signs and wonders? Aren't you reading a little much in the text??? Go back and read what Jesus actually said . . . with an open mind and no preconceived notions! Also remember that from the earliest times of the Church, Christians prayed to Mary - it wasn't until the destruction of the protestant revolution (over 1,500 years after the birth of Christ) that this practice was stopped. The burden of proof is on you - and I would apply that 2 Corinthians quote to those who teach the Catholic Church is not the church founded by Christ in Matthew 16:18.

God bless,
Jay

Jay, don't over-read the verse to try and decipher some "hidden" meaning to what Christ was plainly talking about. It isn't complex or "secretive". And you definetly don't need to read "more" into what's plainly written. You're merely trying to justify something unbiblical and deceptive, like modern-day "apparitions" from Mary. Your only "justification" for these "apparitions" of Mary is to twist Christ's words around until they perfectly fit these deceptive lies. Christ was reffering to a wicked & adulterous generation (in future reference), with people seeking after signs & wonders from Heaven. Apparitions from Mary would obviously classify as being "signs & wonders" from Heaven. So don't kid yourself. When Satan sees any modern-day generation seeking after signs & wonders from Heaven, such as "apparitions" from Mary, he'd obviously cater to this demand and supernaturally appear to spiritually-gullible people. No different than haunted houses or Ouija boards. "There shall be no signs given to it." This means NO signs from Heaven, no signs from God, and no signs from Mary (in the least). One of the things Jesus emphasized over & over, in reference to the future, is to BEWARE of lies, spiritual deception, unbiblical falsehood, wolves in sheep's clothing, false prophets, and these false signs & wonders that run rampant today. He didn't say his mother would be making a special guest-appearance courtesy of Heaven. He just said to beware of these many deceptions of Satan, because obviously LOOKS CAN BE DECIEVING. Any supernatural apparitions in this day, or in recent centuries, can be accredited to Satan, not God. And as far as prayer is concerned, I'd rather obey Christ: "And when thou pray, pray to: "Our Father which art in Heaven", instead of jumping around the issue with false justification for unbiblical rituals. What's not suprising, is if the Vatican suddenly declared that we should all pray to Elijah, like it did with Mary in recent centuries, then guess what you'd be seeing; you'd be seeing prayer-ritual-chants dedicated to Elijah, just like you see repetitious prayer-ritual-chants dedicated to Mary. And the only "justification" for this abomination would be: "Oh we're not "worshipping" Elijah with our dedicated repetitious prayer-chant-rituals every Sunday, we're only "talking" to Elijah and going DIRECTLY to him every time with our prayer-requests." .......(MATTHEW 6:7--But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.).....

Doug,
first of all you failed to differentiate between prayer and worship and that makes dialog impossible. please read what Jay said on this topic, scroll up or look around on Joe/Jay's other threads. if you insist on your opinion and decided to trash Mother of Jesus using your preconcieved ideas then this dialog is fruitless and should cease. In fact you're helping satan in your insistance to cut Him off from this world until His second coming, by simply rejecting (without testing) any signs, and guess what, in two millenia many tried this very same thing, so you're not alone.
with so many bibliolatry and talibanesque interpretations like yours, understandably like most moms Mary is a bit worry for her son's friends well being and tried to warn them. Jesus in the Gospel didn't mention about signs from the saints did He? false Messiah and false prophets yes, but I'm quite sure there is nothing on Saints, angels, Mother Mary. So if Mother Mary drops by and speak that doesn't make her Son a liar. and we do know She's not God! so please if you must, tell us something that we don't already know. if you keep on indulging your stubborness we'll ask Mother Mary to pray for you! how bout that! :)

Promoting Mary to a "higher" position than God did, IS a form of idolatry. Elevating her to the position as "Queen of Heaven", or, "Mediator of prayers" is something God did NOT do, only Catholicism did. It's not written in the Bible that she "is" those things, but Catholics have decided to write it in themselves that she "is" those things. Yes--she is the mother of the son of God. No--this doesn't make her a "queen of heaven". Yes--Christ commanded us to pray directly to the Father. No--Christ wasn't reffering to "Mary" when he said to pray DIRECTLY TO THE FATHER. Yes--there is a King of KINGS in heaven. No--God hasn't "promoted" Mary to the status of "Queen of Queens", or a "Queen of Heaven", in the least. Catholics seem to do EXACTLY what Christ says not to do. Jesus says "Address no man on earth as "Father", in the religious aspect, since there is only one Father. Catholics turn around and call their priests "Father", in a religious aspect. Calling your priest "Father", is obviously calling him "GOD". Unbiblical practices like these have been so much of a hardcore "tradition" through the centuries, that an unsuspecting victim (who isn't well-grounded in the word of God) would blindly fall victim to them. The excuse would be "Oh but it's been our "tradition" to do it this way, reguardless if it's biblical or not! (MARK 7:9--And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your OWN tradition.) (MARK 7:13--Making the word of God of NONE effect through YOUR traditions, which YE have delivered: and many other such likewise things ye do.)

Antonio, since Mary is in Heaven, then a supernatural "apparition" by her today would obviously classify as "signs & wonders" FROM HEAVEN. The topic, object, and theme of Christ's message in MATTHEW 16:4, is a wicked & adulterous generation seeking after these "signs & wonders" from Heaven and how there wouldn't be ANY given unto it. Looks can be decieving--it's what Satan operates on. Since Satan is unfortunately "good" at diguising himself, you obviously wouldn't able to distinguish between if it were truly "Mary", or just Satan merely "wearing" her as a costume to decieve people with. Satan paints a sugar-coating over deception to make it look acceptable, this is why people fall victim to lies in the first place! The whole point in putting the WHOLE gosphel-armour of Christ on, is so that we can stand against the sugar-coated schemes, deceptions, and the many unbiblical lies of the Devil. Believing something by mere "appearance alone", is just fertile grounds for Satan to come along to decieve you. "Test the spirits, whether they be from God, for many decievers are entered the world, and, by their fruits ye shall know them." Christ's warning to beware of "wolves in sheep's clothing" is quite evident of this. If "Mary" suddenly appeared to me with an EGOTISTICAL message of: "Dedicate 70 repetitious chants to ME--your one & only Immaculate Heart-goddess. If you want peace on earth, you will do this. I require reparations for the sins that you've commited against MY holy Immaculate heart. Since I'm so Holy and worthy to be prayed to, I require it. Don't ask questions, just do as I say! MY Immaculate heart shall be your focus, because only I can help you. I am the mediator of your prayers, and your Queen of Heaven. And if you do this, there will be peace on earth." ......I would tell SATAN to get lost at that point, lol. ..............(II CORINTHIANS 11:14 And marvel not; for Satan himself is disguised as an angel of light. ..............(GALATIONS 1:8 But if we, or an ANGEL from heaven, preach any OTHER gospel to you other than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.).............(II PETER 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies.)....................(MATTHEW 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.)...........(REVELATION 20:10 And the Devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire.)

Doug L.
You said since Mary is in Heaven, then a supernatural "apparition" by her today would obviously classify as "signs & wonders" FROM HEAVEN. hmm, I'm in a dilemma here, should I trust Mother of God from Heaven or Doug's amateur interpretation of the bible? :) as Joe said somewhere up there, every approved apparition She pointed us to JESUS. that's the last thing satan wants, instead I'm suspicious on people (like you) who bar people from prayers. as I reflect more, you're not exactly in full earnest and charity in warning us do you? you're here to trash our respect to Mary rudely and repetitively. as I said, if you still equate prayer (eg: our rosary) with worship (eg: our Missa) then you're not qualified for any discussion (yet).

Antonio, MATTHEW 16:4 doesn't need interpretation, it speaks for itself. Jesus clearly said: "I won't be sending you any signs & wonders from Heaven to your wicked & adulterous generation." So, don't expect any, OBVIOUSLY. No "apparitions" from angels, or Mary, because they obviously know better than to disobey MATTHEW 16:4. Catholic dogma: "But let's just look for apparitions from Mary anyway, EVEN THOUGH Christ JUST SAID that we WOULDN'T be getting any." ...It must be 'Do-The-Opposite-Of-What-Christ-Just-Said Day'. LOL.

The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church reguarding a “Queen of Heaven” is quite reminiscent of the ancient Phoenicians who prayed to & worshipped Astarte as the “Queen of Heaven” or of the Babylonians who worshipped Mylitta as their “Queen of Heaven”. Throughout the history of the world, many pagan nations were given over to worshipping & praying to a goddess called the “Queen of Heaven”. A close examination of the Bible reveals only one reference to a “Queen of Heaven” figure (JEREMIAH 7:18, 44:18), and this reference is a strict warning that worshipping a “Queen of Heaven” figure not only provokes the wrath of God, but God considers it an abomination. A): Because God made it perfectly clear that "Thou shalt have no other gods (including goddesses) before Him, and B): Because there is NO “Queen of Heaven”, in the first place. In chapters four and five of the Book of Revelation, Heaven was revealed and only Christ Jesus is the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords was seen reigning (and Mary certainly wasn't seen standing there next to Him with equal attributes). Are you provoking the anger of the Lord by worshipping a “Queen of Heaven” through your adoration, prayers, and rituals, like the pagans did? Are we to apply pagan traditions like these to Christianity, or apply them to church service? Certainly not.

Doug L.,
So? Doug, even a cursory read through the Bible will convince you of one thing: God often chooses non-Christian beliefs and converts them to Christian use. There are a string of examples: circumcision (first used by pagans), baptism (again, used by pagans), many even point to Christmas as a "converted" holiday. The point is that God can take anything and make it Holy by His simple choice.

Also, Doug, examine Scripture again: Revelations also speaks of the Queen of Heaven, which is where our belief comes from, since she gave birth to the messiah (doesn't take a genius to figure out who that is).

Finally, I'll only say this to you once: Catholics do not worship Mary. It's ridiculous that you can't grasp this simple fact. Just because you confuse "prayer" with "worship" doesn't mean we are worshipping her, we are not. Prayer is simply talking to God or a dead person - it is not worship. True worship is the Eucharist (John 6), which we would never hold in honor of Mary or using the body & blood of Mary.

God bless,
Jay

It has been interesting reading the comments regarding "The Misconception of Mary Worship and "Are Protestants re-examining Mary?" As a Presbyterian it has been my experience that the two topics are related in that the misconception of Mary Worship has resulted in most Protestant denominations all but ignoring her legitimate theological importance.

Historically Martin Luther continued to say the first half of the Ava Maria prayer and continued to celebrate the Marian feast days of Purification, Annunciation and Visitation. According to a 1994 to 2003 Harris Poll 77% of all American adults and 93% of adults who classify themselves as Christians believe in the virgin birth. In the poll Protestants were actually slightly more likely to believe in the virgin birth than Catholics. If one accepts the incarnation then Mary should be acknoledged and seriously reflected upon, particularly during Advent and Christmas. If you research the topic you will find at least some Protestant theologians are concluding Mary deserves more attentionthan the current passing reference.

If you speak with an individual who is actually knowledgeable of the teachings and traditions of the Roman Catholic Church it would be obvious they do not worship Mary. Protestants need to step out from under the shadow of the Mother Church and stop reacting to what Rome has done or may do regarding Mary. Hopefully all the Protestant denominations will eventually be able to reconcile the Mary who is "blessed amoung women" on her own merits. Perhaps responding to her as a helpful point of focus, rather than reacting to her based on the Roman Catholic Church's position. It has been our loss.

Mary should not be honored in the way she is. She is not the mother of God. God had no beginning, and no end, so therefore, has no parents. (John 1:1) In addition, 1 Timothy 2:5 shows that venerating Saints and praying through them or Mary is wrong, For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. Mary is NOT in heaven. In fact, we will not know she is in Heaven until Christ's second coming. Nowhere in the Bible does it show Mary as a "Godly" figure, although she may have been a good person. Furthermore, Mary cannot intercede and pray for us because she has passed on. The dead know nothing. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) And in John 2:5 when she says to "do whatever he tells you", she is pointing to Jesus, not herself. Keep this in mind.

Until Next time,
Turning to God

David,

So Christ is not God?

They acted like Mary and the other saints are going to saved you, for only God, Jesus Christ can saved you. Mary was a special women, and out of all the women God pick her. But this statement does not mean that she deserve our worship, yes she deserve our Respect but only Jesus Christ deserve our worship. Whatever you "Catholics" say that you do either pray or worship, they both wrong. For Jesus christ is the only one we should pray to and worship. WHAT CAN MARY DO FOR HIS. She cant saved us for bible said that only christ can. An yet you people keep praying to mary asking her to help you and be there when you died. How Can Mary Help you?, Mary does not deserve out prayer or worship for she can do nothing for us. No saints can. Mary is just a women thats it, she not queen of heaven, she not our second helper.All of you who pray to Mary and saints are sinning.

Fidens,

Sorry it took me long to respond, I kind of forgot about this blog. I'm just a kid DON'T GET MAD!:)

Back to the point. I believe Ramon hit it right on the spot. She can't do anything for us, and trying to pray to her and saints is a waste of time.

If I made it seem like Christ is not God, my bad. I still stick to what i said before, She is not the Mother of God because God AND CHRIST outexisted Mary. She was just there to give birth to a human Christ. If you look at it that way, then sure she was the HUMAN mother of the Christ on Earth. That does not mean that Mary is Holy and sinless because she gave birth. She is not omniscient. She was full of GRACE, but that does not mean she did not sin.

David,

You are right to say that Mary, unlike most Mothers, did not pre-exist her child. Most mothers aren't virgin either. When the Roman Catholic Church calls Mary the "Mother of God", they are not claiming that she pre-existed God. Pre-existence is not an essential quality of motherhood, just a very common situation. The essence of motherhood is to participate in conception, to provide an ovum, to provide nourishment and care both in the womb and out of the womb. Mary did this for God. Just as the Eve was formed from the flesh of Adam, So too Jesus was formed from the flesh of Mary.

As for her sinlessness, you have appear to have stumbled upon the most important disagreement between Catholics and Protestants. Catholics believe that sin is a willful rejection of God's grace. Protestants seem to believe that sin (wrongdoing) and grace (God's favour) can co-exist.

As for asking her to pray for us, someone please tell me why it is good to ask Christian Brothers and Sisters to pray for us but bad to ask Christian Brothers and Sisters who have gone to rest in the Lord to pray for us? I admit there is a remote possibility that when we ask Mary to pray for us, she might not be able to hear us. Byt someone please explain why this is so radically different from asking our Christian Brothers and Sisters on earth to pray for us that it offends Our Lord?

Ramon, is asking you to pray for me a sin? How then is asking Mary to pray for me a sin?

If for some reason you can not or will not pray for me, does asking you to pray for me become a sin? If for some reason Mary can not or will not pray for me, how does asking Mary to pray for me become a sin?

What makes you think Catholic expect Mary to save us? All the standard prayers which mention Mary ask her to "pray for us" and ask only God to "save us" or to "have mercy on us". Never once do any of the standard prayers ask Mary to save us.

David you right:

She was full of grace, but thats not mean she never sin. The bible never said that Mary never sinned after the birth of Christ. She was human and as human we make mistake. The only one that is Holy and sinless is Jesus Christ, God Son. Mary and other saints, or lets put it this way all human make mistakes. Mary Did sin, because we all sin. And saying that she never sin after Jesus Birth then you saying that she equal with God, which is UnBiblical. And she was the Human mother of Christ on earth,not heaven because God and Christ outexisted Mary. People are taking Mary and put her has she was Holy and never sinned.

The Bible never saids that we should pray to Mary or other saints. Mary is not Holy. For only God, Jesus Chirst is Holy. I want you people who pray to Mary and other saints to give me a chapter and verse in the Bible that tell us to Pray to Mary and saints.

Asking Mary to pray for us: A tradition of men, not found in the Bible.
Mother of Mercy: Another tradition of men.
Mary is the All Holy One: A tradition of men. We've already shown that God is the only “All Holy One.”
Mary welcomes us at death: A tradition of men, not taught in the Bible.
Mary leads us to Jesus: Another tradition of men, not found in God's Word.

Read this, its tradition. Its not taught in the Bible. So if is not taught in the Bible that ists unBiblical and must be rejected.

Broken:

Because Mary cant do nothing for you. Praying to her is a waste of time. And you praying to her.

Who should we pray to?

The Bible directly contradicts the Catechism by directing people to pray to God alone:
“Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” Jeremiah 33:3

“And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.” Psalm 50:15

When trouble comes, call upon God, not Mary:
“Give ear, O Lord, unto my prayer... In the day of my trouble I will call upon thee: for thou wilt answer me.” Psalm 86:6, 7

“He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.” Psalm 91:15

Literally hundreds of Scriptures teach us to flee to God when trouble comes our way. Not a single verse encourages us to pray to Mary:
“But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.” Psalm 37:39

“O LORD, be gracious unto us; we have waited for thee: be thou their arm every morning, our salvation also in the time of trouble.” Isaiah 33:2

“Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.” Psalm 41:1

Should you cast your burdens on Mary?
“Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.” Psalm 55:22

King David prayed all through the day... to God:
“Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.” Psalm 55:17

The psalmist proclaimed:
“The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.” Psalm 145:18

In the New Testament we read:
“Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.” Philippians 4:6

Who will you pray to?

God's Word says pray to God. Catholicism would rather have you pray to Mary. Again, one must wonder why the Catechism demotes Jesus and exalts Mary. It seems the Catholic church does not want its members going to Jesus for anything. Yet, Jesus issued this invitation:

Thank you Ramon, and great with the Scriptures to back up your argument.

Broken Record,

I am going to provide scripture for you that will show you that you should not pray to Mary or dead Saints.

Ecclesiates 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten"

Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God" (Mary included)

Of course sin and grace can co-exist. Remember David in the Bible. He sinned, but he still had God's grace and remained king. Enoch of the Bible, he sinned, but he tried so hard to please God, that he found favor. He had a good heart, so he walked with God and God took him up with him.

How do you not agree that sin is also willfully breaking a commandment? How do you not think that ALL HUMANS were born in sin because of our first parents Adam and Eve? We were, it says in the Bible. Jesus however wasn't, because he was to die for EVERYONES sins.

The reason praying to Mary and saints is different than letting our brothers and sisters on Earth pray for us:

1 Timothy 2:5
"for there is One God, and ONE mediator between GOD AND MEN, the man Christ Jesus"

This along with Ecclesiastes 9:5 should be proof enough. First, between GOD and MEN includes Jesus and all humankind on earth. This does not, however, include the dead saints or Mary, they are dead, and don't know anything. It also says this in Ecclesiastes 9:10 and Psalms 51:5

And yes, asking Mary to pray for you is sin, and asking a living human is not. It clearly forbids in the Bible to try to communicate and speak to the dead. Deuteronomy 18:10-12 says "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divintation, or observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these thigns are an abomination unto the LORD : and because of thesea bominations the LORD they God doth drive them out from before Thee" The translation i found in a Catholic Bible says in Deuteronomy 18:
11 "or be a serpent charmer, medium, or wizard, or call spirits of the dead" By praying for the dead, or even Mary who is dead, you are going against this, contacting the dead. God FORBADE this.

Mark 7:7
"In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men"

God didn't tell anyone to pray to Mary, the saints, or to change things like the Sabbath, or to pray to idols or things like that, but someone decided to do that and say that it says to in the Bible.

Pray to Jesus.

David

Thanks David: You have some good Scriptures too.

Broken recond:
I hope that God has open up your eyes and let you see the truth.

About a week ago as i was in sunday school i ask the teacher what he thinks about Praying to Mary and asking her to help us. He said to me thats is wrong and unbiblical, he then told me what his old friend told him about that same questions. Dear friends i have copy it and i will post it. Broken recond and all of you who pray to Mary READ.

Is praying to Mary Biblical? NO, based on at least these 3 points

Noteworthy is the fact that the Apostles accorded her no special honour and there is no record of them praying to her nor asked anyone to seek her intercessions. It is interesting to note that not once is she mentioned in the writings or epistles written to the churches by Peter, John, Paul, or James. Even though John was committed to look after her for the remainder of her life he does not mention her.

At Cana Jesus openly rebukes her and didn’t even call her "mother". Instead he addressed her as "woman" as though she were a stranger! After this Mary is never again recorded in The Scriptures to come and ask Jesus something on behalf of someone else. Actually, she did not really ask him to intervene here either. She merely informed Him there was no more wine.

Another time Jesus was teaching and Mary and her other sons were outside requesting to see Jesus. Here is what Jesus responded when His disciples told Him they were outside: 46 ¶ But while He was yet speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47 Then one said to Him, Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak to You. 48 But answering, He said to the one speaking to Him, Who is My mother? And who are My brothers? 49 And stretching out His hand to His disciples, He said, Behold, My mother and My brothers. 50 For whoever shall do the will of My Father in Heaven, that one is My brother and sister and mother. (Matthew 12:46-50 )

But the major reasons that we must NOT pray to Mary is that she is not divine, she did not die on the cross for our sins and that she was an ordinary woman that, like everybody else, needed a Saviour as herself testify: and my spirit exulted in God My Savior. (Luke 1:4

I just hope that God has open your eyes to the truth.

God Bless.

Please Pray to Jesus.

David/Ramon,

Sixtus was a Christian leader martyred in around 260AD during the persecution of Emperor Valerianus. Inscribed on the walls of the Catacombs of Saint Callixtus in Rome, where Sixtus was buried, are sayings such as the following (in latin):

"O Saint Sixtus, remember Aurelius Repentinus in your prayers."

"O Saintly Souls, remember Marcianus, Severus and all our brothers."

Also inscribed on the walls are fish symbols (still used today by all Christians). You can still go and see all these yourself.

The sayings mentioned above are prayers to the departed, who died for their faith, asking them to intercede for the Church on earth. The Christians who wrote these prayers were not innovators - the practice of prayers to and for the dead dates back even further, long before the Canon of scripture was established.

Before most people could read, or had even seen a written copy of the Gospel, the Church recognised that the saints in heaven could intercede for us on earth. The fact that you are unaware of the history of the Church does not change the facts.

When you condemn prayers to the saints, you condemn your own spiritual fathers.

You say prayers to the saints isn't in the Bible? Neither is the trinity - why do you believe that?

God bless.

Fidens,

GREAT arguments. And no Scripture to boot!! Perhaps that is because there is none for the thing you are trying to prove to me.

First, God NEVER told humans to venerate Saints. In this way, you are doing Gods job for him and making judgments, which no one has the right to do but God. God is the only one that can look into our hearts and know what we are thinking. NO HUMAN can say that we know what is in everyones hearts and have the right to judge. That is why venerating saints is a job only for God, the outcome of this judgment we will only know when we get to heaven.

My next point, Sixtus is wrong if he said that we should pray to dead "SAints" and to other dead people. The dead cannot intercede on our behald, and I have yet to see where you have proven this to be false otherwise.

The reason I believe in the trinity is because that is ALL ABOUT GOD. Prayer to the saints is a tradition not doctrine, and again in Mark 7:7
"In vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men"

And you say the trinity is not in the bible. HA!
To find God in the Bible, well, try NOT to find God in the bible, that would be the bigger challenge. To find Jesus, The whole New Testament. For the Holy Spirit, I will list off text, "Luke 4:18, John 14:16, 26; John 15: 26; ....i could go on and on" God is the Lord and creator, Jesus is the son of Man, he is the salvation of the world, or at least for those who accept him. The Holy Spirit is the divine comforter, the teacher, a gift from God. You cannot say that the Trinity is not in the bible. This is why i believe the Trinity, YOU CAN'T READ THE BIBLE WITHOUT HEARING THE SLIGHTEST THINGA BOUT THE TRINITY.

Prayer to the saints is NOT in the bible. In fact, prayers to the dead is condemned and they can't hear you. jesus is the only mediator, and i thought when I said that before it was all you needed to hear.

Getting back to the point. I respect Mary and believe she was a great person. I DO NOT, however, believe that we should pray for her because it says not to in the Bible. SHE SINNED. Everyone did.

I DIDN'T CONDEMN PRAYER TO SAINTS. THE BIBLE TELLS US NOT TO BECAUSE THEY ARE DEAD. You say the Church recognized this. God didn't teach this, the church "found out" suddenly. The word Saint is said in many places of the Bible, but it does not say that Humans can chose who is good enough to be one and who is not. God has that right, he is the Almighty One. Saying people can do that is like saying you are equal with God. No matter what you say, God makes the final call.

David

Dear fidens:

What you said just tell me that you dont read the bible. How can you say that the bible does not say anything about the trinity. Did you escape from Mars or something. Look up the passage that my dear friend David told you. Now about the praying to the dead peoples. This is just nonsense. Futher Christ instuite the baptism in the name of the "Father, The Son, And of the Holy spirit. The Holy Trinity Man!!!!

Psalms 88:10-12
"Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?

Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? "

The land of forgetfulness is where the unsaved dead are. It is a place where there is no memory, where they are not capable of anything, because they are in darkness and silence. Death for them is a state of unconsciousness, as they wait their judgment at "The Last Day." They have no knowledge, no praising of God, and thus most assuredly, no intercessions.

Psalms 6:4-5
"Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"

When the unsaved die, there is no consciousness or memory. How then are these souls supposedly interceding for us, suffering penance, or purging their sins, when they do not recall God, or anyone else? They don't speak with God, they don't pray for us, and they can't give God thanks! They have no remembrance!

And yet you say that they can hear us. Check your Facts from fiction man.

Moreover, why would we need their intercession? Did not Christ atone for "all" of our sins? Is He not the intercessor who, by His suffering, redeemed us from all unrighteousness? If we were Saved before we died, we do not come into any condemnation whatsoever. And if we were not Saved when we died, then the judgment is appointed unto us. This judgment is not something which can be plea bargained down to something we can handle, it is divine justice which must be meted out. The full wrath of God which His righteousness demands! It is not only unbiblical, but it is illogical to conclude that man should pray for those who have died yet in their sins. For if they have any stain of sin yet unpurged at death, then after death, is the judgment thereof.

Hebrews 9:26-27
"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

All of our sins, bar none, were put away "once" by the sacrifice of Christ. Anyone who needs purging from sin at death, has obviously never had his sin atoned for by Christ in life, and is thus still dead in trespass and sin.

This thing about the praying to the dead or mary are lies from the Devil trying to trick people into disobeying Gods Word.

Jesus is not teaching the Church to be concerned for the dead, but just the opposite. Don't be concerned with the dead, tend to the living! Preach the gospel to them that are alive, they are the ones who can benefit from it, not the dead. Like Lazarus, they've already had their chance in life. Tend to the Living! In the whole of the Bible, both New Covenant and Old, there exists not one single solitary example of true Children of God praying for, to, or with, the dead!

God Bless.

Ramon

Also....

Catholic doctrines inherently implies man can be born again, after physical death! This is without any foundation in scripture! And if he is born again in this life, then he needs no prayers after death, for he is perfect, without blemish, without spot, having been washed clean in the blood of the Lamb! At least, that according to the Word of God! The unsaved are kept in store, reserved unto the 2nd resurrection and the judgment.

2nd Peter 2:9
"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished"

About the praying to Mary, Its wrong. She SIN guys, like everybody eles, thus she does not deserve out prayers or anything. Sixtus is wrong of what he said. And if you want to follow him then you following his Doctrines from the Devil.

Anything that not in the Bible Must be rejected for its not true. The Catholic Church just got up one day and said " Lets do this and lets tell them that the Bible saids so". This is wrong and its just Unbiblical. The dead cannot intercede for us only the living can do that.

God Bless

Pray to Jesus!

I just got another thing to say to you fidens:

Jesus Christ does not need help from anyone, we need no other intercessor! Not Mary, not Saints, nor our dearly departed friends and relatives! Therefore there is no good, nor need in praying for or to the dead! For we cannot change the destiny of anyone once they have died! That moment seals the fate of that person. Whether as a Saved man, absent from the body, and present with the Lord (2nd Cor. 5:8), or to be absent from the body, and in silence and having no consciousness again until the second resurrection and judgment.

And so before anyone prays for another deceased loved one, or Saint, they should face the very pertinent facts. These are unbiblical traditions of men, not the Word of God, and are borne out of man's humanism, and his leaning unto his own understanding, rather than God's Word. God's Word never calls for praying for the dead, nor does God imply that it does any good.

The time for prayers for people is now, while they are alive! Once we are dead, our fate is sealed!

Ramon,
Then why do we ask others to pray for us? And why did St. Paul say that his sufferings make up for what is lacking in the suffering of Christ? Be careful, the Bible does not agree with you.

By the way, Jesus also prayed for the dead twice: just before he raised them. Finally, Purgatory is real and is very Biblical. Please read this article on the Bible and Purgatory for details. If we know purgatory is real, then we should be praying for the dead.

Finally, you don't have the entire Bible. Martin Luther removed the books that he didn't agree with from your Bible. In the complete Bible we are taught to pray for the dead.

God bless,
Jay

JAY

HA!! The Bible Backs up Ramon All the way! And if your argument is that the so called "complete" bible backs up praying for the dead, then the 'Complete' bible is a contradiction in of itself. If purgatory is real, provide biblical scripture.

And it tells us not to consult the dead in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:10-12

I used this passages in another argument, but I'll use them here too in question and answer form.

WHERE ARE THE DEAD?

Can the dead think for themselves?
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4

How much does a dead person know?
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything" First part of Ecclesiastes 9:5

Do the righteous who die praise the Lord in death?
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down in silence" Psalm 115:17 Read Psalm 6:5; 88:10-12

What is man's condition while in the grave?
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope" 1 Thessalonians 4:13. Asleep means that in the grave...they are dead.

If Jesus prayed for the dead before he raised them, would they not be alive after? See the difference between you and Jesus is that Jesus knew he was going to raise them then and there, for you, you aren't raising them. Jesus is all powerful and can make them hear. And when Jesus rose Lazarus, he was praying that God would hear him so he COULD raise Lazarus. This was in order to help people believe that he was the Son of God.

And yes, Ramon is right. Praying for someone who is dead doesn't help. Our fate IS sealed when we die. Only YOU can ask forgiveness when YOU sin.

Can the dead bring comfort?
"As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave sahll come up no more. He shall reture no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more" Job 7:9,10

What condition makes it impossible for the living to talk to the dead?
The are ASLEEP and UNCONSCIOUS. Read Ecclesasites 9:5,6 and Job 34:14,15

These will show that Purgatory cannot be real, for Jesus will AWAKEN the righteous, not take them from purgatory.

When will the righteous go to heaven?
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall RISE first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

Are the righteous who have died in heaven now?
NO. in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 it is made clear they are asleep, and in verse 14 it says "Them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him"

Jesus will return and TAKE PEOPLE WITH HIM, not get people from purgatory. In fact, in the bible it does NOT say that there is any middle ground for someone who dies between heaven and hell. YOU DON'T GO STRAIGHT TO HEAVEN OR HELL WHEN YOU DIE!

This is how the wicked will come to their end.

There are too many texts to tell how they will die, and when, and where, so I will just list a few verses.

Wicked will be destroyed!
Psalm 145:20, Psalm 101:8, Psalm 37:38, Psalm 92:1, Proverbs 13:13, Proverbs 10:29, Philippians 3:19, 1 Timothy 6:9, 2 Thess. 1:9 I hope we can all agree on this.

The wicked will be destroyed AT THE SECOND RESURRECTION OF CHRISTS SECOND COMING.

Revelation Chapters 20 and 21

How does this stuff tie in to Praying to Mary and the Saints. Very easily. Mary and the "Saints" are dead, and they will be until Jesus returns. From the text I have just told you, it shows that talking to the dead is wrong, and they are unconscious and can do nothing. You can't disagree with these things because they are straight from the Bible.

These things you say are biblical are in no way from God. Mark 7:7 "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men"

David

David,

Just curious about something....

Do you believe that Jesus would do anything to contradict the Torah, the Prophets, or any of the other Jewish Sacred texts (i.e. the Old Testament)? Specifically, if God told the Israelites not to do something would Jesus, while on this earth, have contradicted it?

In Christ,
Joe

Luther remove those books because he knew that its was correct but he wanted to do his own will, and take them out because he felt that they were wrong. He reject the teaching of God and made his own teaching.
Luther subtracted from the Bible, the seven Deuterocanonical books which had been in the Bible for over 1100 years, and he wanted to remove others such as the book of James from the New Testament. This is a clear violation of Holy Scripture in many places, proving him to be guilty of all of the verses shown in the previous segment.
Show me the verse in Scripture which authorized him to do this?

Lets Read Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
So Luther disobey Gods word!!!!!!!! By speaking against GOD's Holy Word, Luther has judged GOD Himself.Martin Luther placed himself above the authority of the Church which Jesus Christ founded. He placed himself above Holy Scripture with his "listen to me" rhetoric, and he has tried to place himself above GOD by criticizing GOD's Holy Word!!!!!!!!!!!!, This is wrong.

Luther had no Biblical authority to do any of the things of which he did. And Yet you JAY take his side? Luther added to the Bible, in Romans 3:28, inserting the word "alone". This was a clear violation of all of the verses which forbid any person to do so. So Jay you take Luther side, a man who Change the bible, which the Bible Forbade it in the first place. Again Praying to the dead is wrong, and was brought up By Luther himself, not from God. Who's knows why Luther did this, maybe because he was a Loser and wanted to be cool so he started a "FALSE RELIGION"!!!!!!

Dear Jay:
Luke 16:20-31
"And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Many things we see illustrated in this parable. And number one is that the dead cannot intercede for those living on earth, and number two is that even the righteous (Abraham) couldn't intercede for the wicked. What was Abraham's response to Lazarus about those on earth who he wanted to intercede for? He says, No, they have Moses and the Prophets (a synonym for the scriptures), let them hear them! And if the people on earth won't hear that, then he says, "neither will they hear if one rose from the dead" to intercede and warn them. i.e., if man doesn't hear the scriptures, He won't hear Christ (He who rose from the dead to) tell them. He is therefore Lost! A lesson by God for all of us who have the ears to hear it. Those on earth (the living) have God's Word, and that's all they have, and they must hear by that, or they will not hear!

GOD BLESS
Ramon

Joe

Uh..no? That's because he didn't. I don't really remember, but tell me where he prayed for the dead person and I'll try to explain what I think it means.

Great argument Joe, Jay do you have anything to follow up that rock solid defense?

David,

I asked the question to disprove one of your arguments above:

HA!! The Bible Backs up Ramon All the way! And if your argument is that the so called "complete" bible backs up praying for the dead, then the 'Complete' bible is a contradiction in of itself. If purgatory is real, provide biblical scripture.

And it tells us not to consult the dead in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:10-12

Yet in Matthew 17:1-3 we read:

And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

Now either Jesus was directly contradicting what He, the Word, had inspired Moses to write or you are misinterpreting the text. I tend to believe the problem is the latter. After reviewing the actual text I found that my hunch was correct. Here is what Deuteronomy 18:10-12 actually says:

There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord; and because of these abominable practices the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Lastly, least we forget, at the time Moses wrote Deuteronomy 18:10-12 there were no saints in heaven because it was prior to the Resurrection. We shouldn't be surprised that the practice of asking the saints in heaven to pray for us was only developed later nor should we be surprised that it is not something found in the writings of the apostles, considering that they were among the first recognized saints.

Please show me where Jesus and/or the Apostles told us NOT to ask the saints for their intercession.

In Christ,
Joe

P.S. Jay left yesterday for about a week of vacation.

Dear Joe:

Joe then tell me a Scritpure Passage from the Bible that tell us that Jesus himself told us and command us to Pray to, for, with the dead? and that the Apostles told us to Pray to Mary and the dead people. In Old Testament there were alot of People who found Favor with God, now did Jesus and The Apostles told us to pray for, to or with them?, Joe you really not understanding the BIBLE. And Jesus never us to pray for the dead either. Come Joe where the Bible said so. If its not there that they wrong.

TELL ME JOE?. The Scriptures teach that God is omnipresent – that He exists everywhere all the time (Psalm 139:7-12). That God is omniscient we also know from Scriptures (1 John 3:20). These are some of the attributes of God. I know of no passage in Scripture where I might read that the spirits in Heaven exist everywhere and know everything. Rome, of course, has found a way to twist a passage of Scripture to support her idea that these spirits can keep abreast of events on earth.

Prayer in the Bible is always to God. Prayer to those passed on is always against God's will. Plus, your making Mary a god. Most of this came about by people who saw 'mary' apparations, they are not her. They were lies from the devil. You never find a prayer to Mary or any saints whats so ever in the Bible. Did Jesus pray to those who have pass on before he was born? No WAY HE NEVER DID. WHY?, Becasue once we died our Fate is SEALED. Praying to them is no good. What they did on Earth is there Problem, we cant change there Fate. We cant make them worship God if they dont want to.

They are not omnipresent like God is. Even if someone should try and pray to them - there is no way that person would even hear your prayers unless God would allow it or God would transmit the prayer to them.When Jesus was walking in the New Testament – He specifically told us that we are to pray direct to God the Father if we have any needs that must be met. There is not one verse that I am aware of that He told us that we could also pray to dead saints. If God the Father wanted that possibility as an option - I believe Jesus would have told us that in the New Testament - but He did not!
Jesus’ death on the cross has now opened up the gates to heaven. The Bible tells us that we can now boldly approach the throne of God for prayer and communication anytime we want to. If you notice - it says to approach the throne of God - not to the thrones of dead saints!

The bible tells us that the dead Know nothing. There is much scripture to support the notion that we lie in wait in the ground until Christ’s return, at which point it says the dead rise up first to join him in the clouds, and then those who are yet alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.
Since the dead know nothing, it begs the question, who are you really talking to?

According to the scriptures, there are only two major spirit powers in existence. God claims he is the original and most powerful, and gives Satan the dubious credit of being the other, and lesser power. Both answer prayers, but if you address God, Satan cannot answer you. Likewise if you address other than God, God will not answer you.

Joe

I hope Jay has fun wherever he's going!

"And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him."

If this is so, then are Moses and Elijah dead? We already know that Elijah was spared from death. He never died, and since Moses and Elijah are in heaven, they aren't dead. BUT, did Jesus PRAY to them or for them to pray to God for us?

Of course Jesus did not want us to ask saints for their intercession. "For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, that man Christ Jesus" Of course you know that text. ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN. That means that us on earth, being alive, can pray to Jesus.

Also, the dead are asleep! They cannot hear us. They do NOT praise Jesus in death.
"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down in silence" Psalm 115:17 Read Psalm 6:5; 88:10-12

Since this is so...Why pray to them? They can't hear you, and certainly cannot praise Jesus or help you pray to him.

David

P.S. Oh, I know this is really off topic, but I just wanted to hear your thoughts about this one article I saw in a Newspaper. It says "Jesus is one EARTH!!" If you HAVE seen it, just tell me what you think, I would like to know your thoughts about it. I'm just curious : ) Everyone comment if you can.

David,

First, let's look at the facts. NO HUMAN BEING was in heaven prior to Jesus' saving sacrifice on the cross and His glorious resurrection. Where do you purpose Elijah and Moses were?

Second, you stated previous that Deut 18:10-12 forbid "consulting" with those who had left this world. I was simply showing that Jesus did just that....period. You are limiting your definition of prayer....you are saying that all prayer is worship. But that is not the case there is such a thing as intercessory prayer. I am interceding for you right now, asking Jesus Christ to send His Spirit upon you to open up your mind to His Truth.

Third, the apostles, St. Paul specifically, asked others to pray for them continously (Romans 15:30; Ephesians 6:18-20; Colossians 4:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thessalonians 3:1; etc). In all these passages St. Paul is either interceding for others or asking them to intercede for him. So why is it such a problem for us to ask him to intercede for us now? Where did Jesus EVER condemn such a thing?

Fourth, in terms of "the dead being asleep and unable to worship Jesus" that is STRICTLY in the Old Testament prior to Christ's Resurrection. The Book of Revelation (5:6-14) and the Letter to the Hebrews (12:22-24)are quite clear that the saints in heaven do praise and worship Jesus. So I'm not sure where you are getting this completing unbiblical train of thought.

Finally, I haven't read the article...what newspaper was it in?

In Christ,
Joe

Dear Joe

The Roman Catholic Church teaches its members to not only pray to God but also to Mary and to the saints. The Roman Catholic Church goes so far as to state that all prayers must ultimately go through Mary before they get to God! Contrary to this, we are only taught in Scripture to pray to God (Matthew 6:9; Luke 18:1-7; etc.). Why do you pray to dead saints? Can they help you? (NO) no saints can, so why pray to them?

JOE tell me a scripture from the BIBLE that Christ Himself told us to Pray to, for or with the dead saints or Mary, in the future when he will no longer be on Earth. Jesus only said to Pray to HIM.
Most believe that when we died we are "asleep" untill the second coming of christ while others belive we go to Heaven or Hell, this is all depends wheat you thing. Either way God Forbade us to pray to anyone but HIM.
The obvious question is: Why do we need others interceding for us? Isn't it enough to have God the Son interceding for us? Does the Creator of the Universe need the help of mortal men and women to persuade the Father on our behalf?

Precious Roman Catholic, if you are praying for loved ones you believe are in purgatory, you need to be aware that God didn't tell you they were there, a group of religious leaders did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What makes this doctrine even more disturbing is that the Bible never indicates such a place exists. Neither does the Bible teach that further purification after death is necessary to earn going to heaven. On the contrary, God's Word declares that salvation is a free gift:
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

"...by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

True Christians are already purified because Jesus put away all sin on the cross:
"...but now once in the end of the world hath he (Jesus) appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 9:26

God's children are not required to suffer for salvation because they have been bought and paid for:
"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." 1 Corinthians 6:20

Did Jesus told us to Pray to, for or with the Dead or did Man demanded this?

NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE DID JESUS MADE THIS DOCTRINE.

As for what happends to us when we died, Even in the New testament, paul himself said that the Dead in christ will rise up first!!!!!! in the second coming of christ.

Dear Joe again:

Prayers on behalf of the dead have no meaning, for nothing can be changed by them. God's Word shows that the dead no longer have any physical or mental activity (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10). Each person who dies sleeps in his grave in unconsciousness until the resurrection (John 5:28-29; Daniel 12:2; Job 19:25-26; 14:12-14; John 3:13; Acts 2:29, 34). Clearly, prayers should be for the living while there is still hope of repentance, not for the dead, who can do nothing.

Even in the new testament we see that the dead are Asleep until christ second coming. ITS NOT ONLY IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Joe,

Don't worry, I haven't forgotten our debate, I just don't really have the time right now, so I'll hold that till later.

About the article, I BELIEVE it's the STAR magazine, but don't hold me to that, I'm not sure. If you happen to see it in a super market or something, comment about what you think. Again it says something about "Christ is on Earth". My dad might drive me over to buy one, you know, not that I believe it. : )

Ramon and David,

Please reference the article that I posted on this topic:

I Believe In Life Everlasting

In Christ,
Joe

Dear JOE:

Ok, They might be in Heaven. But this does not make it right to communicate to them either

I would have problems with your view of praying to dead saints for several reasons.

First, the Bible is clear that there is one Mediator between man and God, our Lord Jesus – 1 Timothy 2:5.

Our Lord lives forever to make intercession for us (Hebrews 7:25).

He tells us that whatever we ask Him in His name, He will do it (John 14:13-14).

Why would we possibly want to make our petitions to a mere saint, when we can and are commanded to make them to our Lord Himself. That is like seeking permission from a sergeant, when our Father is the general. I think it is an offense to God not to come to Him as our loving Father.

Also, Saul got into a great deal of trouble when he tried to consult the dead saint, Samuel (1 Samuel 28).

If the Scriptures provide us with all things necessary for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:1-4), and with them the man of God is thoroughly equipped for every good word (2 Timothy 3:14-17), then why would we employ something that the Bible does not speak of, but does speak against?

Then why JOE should we pray to them, for the bible speak against it? Yes maybe the saints SOULS are up in Heaven but They were they given Authorty to Hear our Prayers and Answer them?
If any of you has read the book of Hebrews you would know that ONLY Jesus is the intercessor for his church.
Where in the bible does it say that praying to the spirits of the dead is ok? I do not see anything in the bible making it ok just because they are respected christians. There is nothing in the bible supporting that.
The Book of Maccabees which teaching to pray for the dead were rejected from the canon because it contains historical and geographical errors, and many teachings inconsistent with the rest of scripture: salvation by almsgiving; suicide; magic; angelic intercession; etc.

We pray to God since he is omnipresent , so He can hear us even if we all [pray indifferent languages , in diffrent places irrespective of TIME.

It will be folly to argue that saints also have this capability as the bible didn't support that.

God Bless:

Ramon

Ramon,

In terms of Jesus being the one and only mediator and how that relates to the asking others to pray for us, why do we ask others here on earth to pray for us then? I believe you and David are taking this passage out of context. You quote 1 Timothy 2:5 here...what's ironic is that St. Paul, right before he calls Christ the "one mediator" makes a primary request:

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way." 1 Tim 2:1-2

Think about it....

In Christ,
Joe

Joe and Ramon, or whoever,

Not that I don't enjoy debating and arguing, but does anyone else have a comment? If not, I'll just leave the topic alone.

The reason I'm asking is because at my church we are doing something sort of related and he showed us that, and that we should be careful not to believe things like that and to recognize when it really is Jesus.

Oh well. Oh, and Joe, I'll come back to the topic about the ONE MEDIATOR probably next week. Keep up the argument Ramon.

David,

Take your time...I want you to really think about these things.

One more thing....what is "that"? You make reference to "that" twice in your second paragraph...just curious.

I am praying for you brother.

In Christ,
Joe

Dear JOE:

Hello again. Well if i tell you to pray for me, its different because you will pray God, I hope you pray to God not to a saint. We ask others to pray for us because we are Brothers and Sisters, That are alive, in christ.

But Joe, do you think that Paul has a Double Mind, becuase first he said:

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way." 1 Tim 2:1-2

I dont know i think i still belive that is a little wrong.

So right there it said "and all who are in high positions, so maybe this included saints. I dont know. But then just after that he calls Christ the "one mediator". Then why you suppose he said two different things?

Joe, did Paul had a double mind?, in which he did not know which one to do. Pray to saints and jesus or pray only to Jesus.

Ramon,

First, you say that you ask for my prayers because I am alive in Christ. Are not the saints in heaven also alive in Christ? They are alive in Christ. In fact, they are alive in Christ in a fuller sense then we are because they now behold Christ face-to-face.

Second, St. Paul does not have a double mind. Christ is the "one mediator" and asking a saint to pray to Christ for us in NO way compromises Christ singular mediation. That is the very point we have repeatedly tried to make here....there is a fundamental difference between intercessory prayer and supplication. I don't ask a saint to heal me, I ask them to intercede for me to Christ for healing. It's that old saying that it never hurts to have a lot of people praying for you. Although I highly value your prayers, I know that the prayers of the saints in heaven are of even greater value due to the fact that they have received their crowns (as St. Paul says), they have finished the race and been found worthy of life-everlasting. The saint is not mediating, the saint is interceding to Christ for us...the mediation still belongs to Christ. So again, St. Paul is not double-minded, he is simply Catholic in his theology.

In Christ,
Joe

Dear JOE:

Are you saying that you ask the Saints in Heaven to pray for you only. Do you ask them to be with you in spirit, heal you, and protect you as if they were Angels that proctect us?

God Bless
Ramon

Dear David:

Ok, see you next week. Hope you bring a good point of view on praying to saints and all. Bye David till next week.

God Bless
Ramon

Ramon,

The articulation of various prayers and devotions to the saints is specifically based on asking them to intercede for us. I might say an intercessory prayer to a given saint asking that through their intercession I might be healed, but I understand that all healing comes from Christ. All that the saints in heaven are capable of doing is done in the name of Jesus Christ. Any aid they give us is through Christ. Catholics believe and worship only ONE God - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We simply believe that as members of the Body of Christ we all, those alive and those who have died, are forever channels of Christ's grace and power. It was God who willed to use us mere human beings to manifest His Love and Glory to the world. As St. Peter said in Acts 3:6,12:

...I have no silver or gold, but I give you what I have; in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk...And when Peter saw it he addressed the people, "Men of Israel, why do you wonder at this, or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we had made him walk..."

"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

In Christ,
Joe

Here's my take on the contrast between 1Tim 2:5 and 1Tim 2:1-2.

Protestants say (correct me if I'm wrong), that according to Paul, everyone on this earth should and can pray for everyone else on this earth (1Tim 2:1-2) but Saints in the next life should not and can not pray for us (1Tim 2:5).

Perhaps a little context may help. First thing to note, there was no raging debate about asking Saints to pray for us at the time Paul wrote this letter - he must have been addressing another issue.

Perhaps instructing people to pray for kings because they would otherwise not do so without this instruction. Remember these were Pagan times and monotheism was still evolving away from paganism. What I mean is that when Moses told the Israelites not to worship other gods, they still believed there were other gods for other nations and did not yet realize there were no other gods. People mistakenly believed that there were lots of gods for lots of nations and that different people could fall under the jurisdiction of different gods. As such a new Christian might very well ask "why should I pray for Caesar? he has a different god than I do."

Now look at St. Paul's words in that context. You should pray for Caesar (verse 1-2) because there is only one God (verse 5). In particular, his God is also your God. You both have the same God so you can pray for Caesar.

In this light, 1 Tim 2:5 supports rather than discourages the belief that Saints can pray for us.

Why can the Saints pray for us? Because there is only one God. In particular, their God is also our God. We all have the same God so the Saints can pray for us.

Broken,

I'd like to point out that St. Paul includes himself among those in "high positions". That said, 1 Tim 2:1-2 isn't just limited to letting early Christians know that it is okay to pray for kings. The commentary from the Navarre Bible has this to say about the context of these verses:

Verse 1 - St. Paul here establishes regulations for the public prayer of the faithful; it is up to Timothy, as head of the church of Ephesus, to specify these in detail, and to preside over them. He refers to four types of prayer; however, since the first three are almost synonymous, he is probably just stressing the key importance of prayer in the Christian life. St. Augustine use this text to explain the various parts of the Mass: "We take as 'supplications' those prayers which are said in the celebrating the Mysteries before beginning to bless (the bread and wine) that lie on the table of the Lord. We understand 'prayers' as meaning those prayers that are said when (the offering) is blessed, consecrated and broken for distribution, and almost the whole Church closes this prayer with the Lord's prayer [...]. 'Intercessions' are made when the blessing is being laid on the people [...]. When this rite is completed and all have received this great Sacrament, the world ceremony is brought to an end by 'thanksgiving'--which is also the word which concludes this passage of the Apostle's" (Letter 149, 2, 16).
St. Paul orders that prayers be said for all, not just for friends and benefactors and not just for Christians. The Church helps people keep this command by the Prayers of the Faithful or at Mass when "the people exercise their priestly function by praying for all mankind" and "pray for Holy Church, for those in authority, for those oppressed by various needs, for