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So here's a question: How many people out there can honestly claim they have "never [heard] the Gospel of Jesus Christ"?

Now that the Church is universal and on virtually every continent, it seems that everyone has the opportunity to hear. The question really is: how much of the responsibility is personal? We have an obligation to seek the Truth and St. Paul tells us that through natural theology we can see the 'Truth' (although not in it's fullness). In fact, can anyone still claim ignorance?

I would argue that virtually no one in the U.S. can claim this ignorance. What say you?

Jay

I think for the most part what you say is true, yet we cannot know for certain that every person on the earth has heard the Gospel, in fact I would say that many haven't. Consider the Muslim countries where it is illegal to even speak about Christianity. I would also like to point out that most Protestants are "in the Church," though separated, through baptism. Granted they do not live in the fullness of the Catholic Faith. Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are another story. We need to evangelize these two cults.

Joe

So we get rid of the Bible, the Fathers of Church and the writings of the Staints because the Pope tells us? Well I for one would rather be a protestant with St Augustine and St Thomas than be a "Catholic" with JP II !! What did St Paul say about if he or an angel preach another Gospel....? Hearing the Gospel is a great grace that NO ONE has merited.I will not say that no one can be saved outside the visible Church, I will say though that according to St Peter that holiest of Popes that even the righteous will barely be saved- Jesus Himself ( Glorify Him unto the Ages!)said its a long and hard path. We need to get realistic.

Sophia,
What?

I don't really have a clue what you're saying, but the Pope hasn't ever told us to "get rid of the Bible, the Fathers of Church [sic] and the writings of the Staints [sic]." I don't know where you're getting this.

Also, St. Augustine and St. Thomas were clearly Catholic - I would suggest you read some of their writings if you don't think so. I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone call them "protestant" (Note: the protestant churches didn't exist at that time - not one of them).

Maybe you could explain what you mean?

God bless,
Jay

Jay, John Paul II says one thing to keep the "conservitives" on board and then throws something to the liberals. Loving protestants means convincing them that to die as much means Hell, that their "churches" are inventions of the devil for the damnation of souls,etc- not nice group prayers that JP II goes in for. He even reaches out to Hindu idolators and people like the Dalai Lama who is involved in weird "tantric" intercourse with demons. Traditionalists fight this open apostate and friend of child abusers- in your book that makes them protestants, so be it, but St Augustine and the others are on the side of us in the Catacombs.St Paul resisted Peter to his face because he was to be blamed and some one as cynical of JP II demands even more severe resistance. Unless we spread righteous anger aganist him we will be damned with him.

Soli Deo Gloria- Sophia.

Sophia,
That's the nuttiest commentary I've seen in a while. First, is JPII Christ's representative on earth? If so, then we must trust in Christ who said that the Gates of Hell will not stand against His Church. You're worse than protestants because you've formed a new church based on the actions of Christ's representative on earth - most protestants aren't aware of their error, you are. JPII is an incredible pope. If you have a problem with him, then you've got other issues you aren't discussing. Remember, your Church is made by man, mine was made and is kept by God. There is a key distinction.

Also read this article. Finally, don't believe all the anti-Catholic crap you read, some of it just isn't true.

God bless,
Jay

before Jesus died, he saved a sinner on the cross with Him who heard the Gospels but waited a little to late to get baptized. is he in the Kingdom, yes, why because he believed. baptism is a ceremony committed not meaning that you are not saved but to publically confess your conversion and to recieve the Holy Spirit within you, publically. when Jesus died the veil cover the Ark of the Covenant split in two, no longer seperating man from the deepest relationship possible with God. Jesus came and bridged the void, so to speak. that means that that the church would be inside of you, when you chose to believe. not some guy in a box telling to pray a million Hail Mary's for forgiveness of my sins. read Jeremiah 43. the queen of heaven bit is as old as anyone reading this now. you are the church that is responsible for bringing on more believers, not a building. Jesus died to replace the laws and traditions. like now, we don't know when Christmas is but we do know when Passion Week and Easter are. if it was important for us to know where Jesus' physical life began God would have told us so, ironically He did tell us where satan lost and where He began to live inside of us.

Paul,
Click here to read about Baptism. Please read the article before posting.

Remember, Jesus came not to "replace" the law but to fulfill it. Don't make the mistake of thinking we can get to heaven without doing anything.

God bless,
Jay

Sophia,

Stating that St. Augustine is Protestant is about as ridiculous as saying that Jimmy Swaggart or Oral Roberts are devote Catholics. St. Augustine wrote and preached about apostolic succession, the need of confession, the real presence of our Lord in the Eucharist, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and just about every other doctrine of the Catholic Church. Like I have said over and over again on this blog, the Early Fathers clearly were Catholic.

I would like to know what exactly you mean by

St. Augustine and others are on the side of us in the catacombs.

If you are going to make comments like this please provide proofs to support what you are saying....

St. Thomas is another issue and I would be most interested in seeing what proofs you could provide to support the erroneous statement that he supported Protestantism.

In Christ,
Joe

jay my man,
baptism means to be immersed in water. you first must believe, believe and then get baptized to receive the Holy Spirit. which is why Jesus recieved the Holy Spirit publically. John was born with the Spirit in him already. and this baptism is different than the one Paul writes about in 1 Corinthians, to be baptized in the Spirit to recieve spiritual gifts and anointing power. if i was out witnessing to someone who doesn't have a church home or someone who is on their deathbed, i may by the power vested in me as a believer, sprinkle them with water or anoint their heads with oil; this too is an acceptable form of baptism. Jesus gave us power and authority Jay to do these things not a church. Jesus and them drank fermented grapes, wine, not alcoholic wine but fermented grapes. although great men drank, a man without sound judgement will be impaired to do God's Will.

Paul,

In cases of extreme need, a lay person may baptize, meaning in life and death situations. However, the administration of Baptism in normal circumstances is reserved to either a priest or deacon only. Within most Protestant denominations it is reserved to the pastors, assistant pastors, or deacons. This is supported by the New Testament and the Early Church Fathers as well.

FYI - it is the fermentation process that brings about alcohol in wine. Your suggestion that the wine Jesus and the apostles drank wasn't alcoholic would contradict their very teaching, for St. Paul and St. Peter instructed early Catholics not to get "drunk" and to stay "sober". So I think you will be hard-pressed to prove that wine wasn't alcoholic, considering that it was the only alcoholic drink they had available to them. Also, in the Old Testament there are multiple references to certain men being drunk on wine, not that it was a good thing, but the reference was made...meaning they could get drunk on their wine.

I'm glad you are so active on our blog and I hope we are helping you to clear up some of your common misconceptions.

In Christ,
Joe

joe,
i just love you guys, you're my brother in Christ, so why shouldn't we do whatever this is. the Word also speaks of wine mixed with other things, whatever they may have used back then to help their stupor. plus drinking and getting drunk are two different things. whereas the water was crappy back then a few too many drinks of the good stuff could cause anybody to get drunk. but like i was stating earlier, when people come to Christ, He will clean up the mess that the world has made of God's child, we're to help them in the physical to get to a point where they can know and trust Jesus to heal them. He also showed Paul and Peter plenty that is not written....

Dear Joe,
not for a minute did I suggest that St.Augustine was a protestant! The only way you could have got the impression I was saying that was through a deliberate misunderstanding of my point which was and is that John Paul II or whatever you wish to call him is preaching another Gospel than the One of our Lord Jesus Christ- and if to proclaim that fact means to be called a protestant by those who would deify anyone who happens to sit in St Peter's throne at the moment than so be it. I sometimes try and even then usually fail be a CATHOLIC. JP II is a NON-CATHOLIC and to follow him could very well mean hell as following Luther and Calvin most certainly does!In your slander aganist Traditionalist Catholics and there is no other kind you are slandering Christ Himself.I will pray for you.
God Bless and Protect!
Sophy.

First you stand by and watch him kiss the koran and pass no comment, what will you do when he asks you to kiss it? Orthrodoxy or death! St Cyrpian- Pray for us!

Sophy,
Again, your reasoning lacks logic. So God instituted the Church and lead it for 1900 years. Suddenly, you think the Church made a bad decision, despite God's guarantee that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, and so it's okay for you to split off? You are making yourself the ultimate arbitor between right and wrong. You are no long obedient to Christ or His Church. You, not JPII, are the one revolting against God!

Did the Pope worship the Koran? No. Do the Muslims worship the same God as us? Yes. They have some truth in that they worship the God of Abraham. Just as your Traditionalist church has some truth, since it worships the same God. The pope understands much better than you that only the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth. There is no reason for you to break away; it is a revolt against God.

God bless,
Jay

The gates of hell have not prevailed but as the Lord himself has asked, when He comes do you think He will find Faith upon this earth? Another question-is islam the creation of the devil to lure souls away from God? No I am not making myself the ultimate arbetratior of right and wrong, God- the most holy Trinity-is!
and let no man whether he sit in the Chair of Peter or not try to make himself such.
The Church is both the Mystical Body and immaculate Bride of Christ, created through the sacrifice at Calavary and re-created through the sacrifice of the Mass and the Eucharist- seen as your "Pope" allowed the words of our Lord at the consecration to be changed to ones more of his liking it is doubtful whether you and I infact eat the same Bread and so our one Body in Christ.
That more than anything else shows how, and I realise the gravity of the word I use, EVIL Paul VI and John Paul II were and are. May God enlighten all our hearts with the Grace of His Holy Spirit that we may all see clearly through the prayers of the all holy and ever Virgin Mary. Amen.

Yours in Christ,
Sophy.

Sophy,
For you to decide that the Pope chosen by the Holy Spirit was a mistake is to set yourself up as supreme authority. Where do you get your authority to do this, Luther Sophy? I know where the Pope and Church receive their authority, so why should anyone leave God's Church and follow you?

In the end, Sophy, you are simply revolting against God. We'll pray for you.

God bless,
Jay

You guys are quick to call everything a Protestant(as you call us) misconceptions. I would suggest that you do your own diligent research from the authority (the Word of God)not the Roman catholic church, before lashing out every chance you get

2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

God Bless

Simon,
Again, the Bible calls the Church the authority:

• The Church is the "pillar and foundation of truth" - 1 Tim 3:15
  
• "Throught the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known" - Eph 3:8-10
  

God bless,
Jay

PS - we aren't "lashing out," we're merely pointing out that the Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ in Matthew 16:18.

Hello Jay,

The Word is the sole Authority:

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works

Isaiah 8:20:

"To the law and to the TESTIMONY: if they speak not according to THIS WORD, it is because there is no light in them

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (not the word of the church)

2 Peter 3:15-16

, "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, unto their own destruction."

Matthew 4:4, "he answered and said, IT IS WRITTEN, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Proverbs 30:5-6:

"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. ADD THOU NOT UNTO HIS WORDS, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (The Lord and His Word are complete)

God Bless,

Simon

Simon,
None of those verses say that the Church doesn't have the same authority. You believe in Sola Scriptura, which is not Biblical. I agree (as does the Church) that the Scriptures are the Word of the Lord. But I would argue (along with Scripture) that we must adhere to the Oral Word (Tradition) as well as the written Word (Scripture).

So the question is, where does the Bible teach it is the sole authority?

Keep in mind, the New Testament wasn't compiled until almost 300 A.D. The New Testament writers weren't writing Scripture they were simply writing instructions and lessons for the churches under them. In fact, most probably did not realize that a New Testament would be compiled.

Finally, how do you know which books should be in the Bible? The Church decided to include some and not others - how do you know which should be included? Jesus didn't leave a list of writers or books. The Bible doesn't include a list of books that should be included. Ultimately you must trust that the Catholic Church was correct when it compiled the Bible. Then you must try and find a reason why it's okay to abandon the Church that God gave the grace to compile the Bible.

God bless,
Jay

PS - Remember St. Augustine's famous remark that he would not believe the Bible had the Church not told him it was Truth.

Simon,

Here's a challenge: go back and read all of those Scriptures you quoted. Now tell us which one of them says that God's Word can only appear in written form, and that it must be also bound together in a single book called the Bible.

Here's another challenge: who exactly gave you the authority to declare what is and is not the Word of God. We all agree that the Bible is God's Word. But you have the mistaken notion that the Church does not also speak God's Word. Please understand--CATHOLICS BELIEVE THAT GOD IS SPEAKING THROUGH THE CHURCH!!! (That means we agree that we should only listen to the Word of God; but we acknowledge that this Word is still being spoken and that the successors of the apostles are given charge of the Church to receive that Word). So, Simon, please do not quote me the verse about "human traditions". The traditions of the Church are from God, not man. At numerous points in the Bible, Paul commends his readers to also hold to the traditions and the oral teachings. Yet you would make him out to be a wrong-headed Pharisee.

Also, your Proverbs verse is very amusing. If we accept your view, than we must reject all books that came after that (including Jeremiah, which incidentally was delivered orally by the prophet).

In Christ,
Dave

Dave and Jay,

Our main disagreements are who and what the church is and the Bible as the sole authority. I don't want to get caught up in putting different spins on every scripture that is quoted. I will due more diligent studies for truth according to His Word and not what people's interpretations mean them to be.

God Bless
Simon

And I ask you to do the same.

In Jesus Name.

God Bless

Dave, Jay, & Simon:

I've always been a great fan of the fact that the RC Church's understanding of scripture and tradition is so very Jewish in character - the faith tradition from whence the CHurch emerged! In 1st Century Judaism, along side the written Torah (the Hebrew Scriptures generally; Torah, Nebi'im, & Kethuvim) there was the �Oral Torah.� Within common Judaism, the Oral Torah was understood to hold the same authority as the written Torah. The RC Church�s direct parallel to this is its teaching on Scripture and Tradition TOGETHER as the well-spring of divine revelation. I have always found this to be a particularly healthy aspect of the RC Church�s doctrine of revelation.

When the Reformers rejected Tradition alongside Scripture, they were in a sense, rejecting a chunk of the very roots of the olive tree onto which they had been grafted (cf. Romans 11:16b ff.). That said, I've no doubt that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are alive and well in the Protestant Church(es) - and in unique and wonderful ways. While I may agree with many other Catholics that the "fulness" of divine revelation rests within the RC Church (and so Scripture AND Tradition), I cannot deny that the "spirit blows where IT wills" and sometimes, I do not know "where it is going."

Praise God from whom all blessings flow - toward both Protestants and Roman Catholics.

What a great website! All of you responding on this site thus far are very inspiring and thought provoking. I am responding to Sophy more so than anyone else, because I believe we hold many of the same truths. Sophy, I have been searching for the answer to what is truth, and where can I find
the truth. I think I have finally found the answer, which in truth has always been there. Look in Luke chpt.9 46-50. There is no salvation outside the church,if you are already a member of the RCC,or have been given the knowledge taught from the church. If you have not knowledge i.e.
lets say someone who was raised a baptist, and you believe in Jesus (as in Luke, not a member) Then we must accept them. This was what Vatican II was all about, but I believe, as do many others, including Pope Pious VI, that satan was also present, and what Fatima predicted came to volition (diabolical Confusion) Many fell away from the Church because they were confused about what was being reported, announced ect.. The church did not or change it's position that there is no salvation outside the church, it just said we must be tolerable, and Christian towards those members who are outside the Church. Pope JPII, is trying to bring those members back into the Church by setting an example to all people. Sophy, we must trust and follow the Pope as we are
told to do and live up to the Catholic beliefs we know to be the truth. We must pray for the Pope, as he is being attacked from many enemies. Pray the Rosary, pray the chaplet of Divine Mercy, and trust in Jesus, for he is "the way, the truth, and the life."

Back to the topic "Outside the Church there is no salvation". If a person who trusts in Jesus Christ, examines the Scriptures and considers the Catholic Faith, but after considering, willfully choses to join with a Protestant denomination. Can that person be saved not being in the Catholic Church.

Benny Here: In answer to symco:

NO!NO!NO! This is according to the words of Jesus and the Bible.

John 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.
So you have to go through Jesus in order to see God.The head and body of Jesus can not be separated.Jesus is the head of the church and the body of the church.
Ephesians 5:23 Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body.

Ephesians 1:22 And he hath subjected all things under his feet and hath made him head over all the church,
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body,the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may hold the primacy:

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body,which is the church:

Since his body is the church and Jesus and his body can not be separated then you have to go through the church in order to come unto the Father(God).
The Holy Trinity;God the Father,God the Son,God the Holy Ghost: All three are one and the same and also separate identities.So God the Son(Jesus and his body the church) are one and the same as God the Holy Ghost.Man is fallible,but God is infallible which means that God is the church because the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee; That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. God is the church in the form of the Holy Ghost and the one unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost (walking away from the church which is his body ). This is an unforgivable sin because by not being in the church(Jesus body) and confessing your sins you therefore do not have forgiveness for your sins because a priest has not forgiven them here on earth,therefore they are not forgiven in Heaven.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

Matthew 12:31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Simple question? Why wouldn't you believe the oldest Christian Church on earth? The Church that was started by Jesus(God). All other churches can be traced back to some man such as Luther(Lutherans),Joseph Smith(Mormons),Calvin(Calvinists), etc.etc.

Simple Question? Why wouldn't you believe the Church that wrote,assembled,and decided which books(teaching letters) went into the Bible? As the author of the Bible,wouldn't the the author know what the Bible says and means??? How could you,me,or anybody else read the Bible and tell the author of the book that our translation is right and his is wrong when he wrote the book?

Simple Question? Why wouldn't you believe the Bible itself? Such as,

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.

All these churches teach different things.So how can they be of God when they are divided? Since they are teaching different than the Church that gave us the Bible,then they are scattering away from God. This includes sects of the Catholic Church that also don't follow the same teachings and traditions of old. Which is why the judgment will start in the Catholic Church itself.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is, that judgment should begin at the house of God. And if at first at us, what shall be the end of them that believe not the gospel of God?

1 Peter 4:18 And if the just man shall scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

I hope this helps!

Benny

Benny (and to some extent Bob),

What do you think of the Second Vatican Council documents which suggest that people in Protestant ecclesial communities may have, due to their valid baptism and invincible ignorance, sufficient unity with the Body of Christ to receive salvation (despite their lack of full unity with the visible Roman Catholic Church)?

Are Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI manifest heretics? Are they legitimate Popes?

Benny here:

The Church is the body of Christ and if you are not in the body how can you partake of the body's nourishment?Without this nourishment you cannot make it to Heaven.
John 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.Ephesians 5:23 Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body.
Ephesians 1:22 And he hath subjected all things under his feet and hath made him head over all the church,
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body,the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may hold the primacy:
Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body,which is the church.

THIS FIRST VERSE JOHN 14:6 PLAINLY SAYS THAT YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH JESUS TO SEE THE FATHER.
Also, why would Jesus give the Apostles the power to forgive sins here on earth if you didn't actually have to confess to a HOLY MAN CHOSEN OF GOD FOR THAT PURPOSE?

Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Hebrews 5:2 Who can have compassion on them that are ignorant and that err: because he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

Hebrews 5:3 And therefore he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

Hebrews 5:4 Neither doth any man take the honour to himself, but he that is called by God, as Aaron was.

These scriptures here plainly state that a person cannot confess their sins straight to God,but that a priest taken from among men and ordained must offer up the sacrifices and gifts for our sins. This priest should be in a state of grace before he preforms these actions,which is one reason why all priests must also confess theirs sins to one another.

THEREFORE IF YOUR SINS ARE NOT FORGIVEN HERE ON EARTH THEY ARE NOT FORGIVEN IN HEAVEN.

John 20:22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

John 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

People that have not heard about the Catholic Church at all have a chance at salvation providing that they have the perfect act of contrition for their sins at their death.This is providing that God gives them this opportunity as he knows what is in their heart.

You can't have partial unity.Ephesians 4:4 One body and one Spirit: as you are called in one hope of your calling.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

THIS SAYS ONE FAITH!!!Protestants have a totally different faith and interpretation of the Bible.

The one unforgiveable sin is blasphemy of the HOLY SPIRIT.If the Church is Jesus's body as scripture proclaims,then that would make the Church also the Holy Spirit; as God the Father,God the Son,and God the Holy Ghost are one and the same.

Matthew 12:31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

All Popes chosen legitimatly hold the office of Pope.POPES ARE NOT INFALLIBLE. Therefore they can stray out of the pasture of God and into the fields of the devil.The trick is to notice that they may be straying and make sure that you don't follow them if they do stray.You then continue to feed in the correct pasture and wait for the caretaker to return.He or another will eventually return as God's Church is in the correct pasture and is infallible.

Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:

Titus 3:11 Knowing that he that is such an one is subverted and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.
You have to remember that all it takes is for a straying Pope to confess his sins to return to the straight and narrow path.Then he should do as Jesus said ,Go and sin no more.

This is also the same thing we should do.

Benny

You say that "POPES ARE NOT INFALLIBLE." Is that an infallible statement?

In Love

when we were one

Benny,
My friend, I understand and appreciate your zeal for the Church, but it is obvious you do not fully understand what the Church teaches.

First of all, have you ever heard of the term "invincible ignorance?" The term describes those non-Catholics who may "know" of the Catholic Church, but not fully "understand" what she is in substance. Our Lord is FULL of mercy and wishes all men to be saved. However, those that do come to understand that the Catholic Church is THE Church founded by Christ through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, but still reject her refuse to enter, then those individuals put their souls in jeopardy.

Furthermore, I believe every bible verse that you quote, but I don't agree with your personal interpretation of them. In addition Benny, and I say this as a corporal act of mercy, you are committing heresy by saying that the pope(s) are NOT infallible.

You say:
"POPES ARE NOT INFALLIBLE. Therefore they can stray out of the pasture of God and into the fields of the devil. The trick is to notice that they may be straying and make sure that you don't follow them if they do stray. You then continue to feed in the correct pasture and wait for the caretaker to return. He or another will eventually return as God's Church is in the correct pasture and is infallible."

I have a couple of observations here. First, please tell me (us) the "trick" of how one notices if a pope is “straying from the pasture of God and into the fields of the devil?” Do you realize what you are saying here? You are saying that popes are not infallible in the area of FAITH and MORALS when they make a pronouncement “ex cathedra,” but you are implying that somehow YOU know better than the Vicar of Christ appointed and protected by God.

Benny, according to the 1st Vatican Council the decree on Papal Infallibility was defined as:

“"a divinely revealed dogma" that "the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra -- that is, when in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church -- is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed in defining doctrines of faith and morals; and consequently that such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of their own nature (ex sese) and not by reason of the Church's consent" (Densinger no. 1839 -- old no. 1680).

Furthermore, to speak infallibly it must meet certain requirements:

1. The pontiff must teach in his public and official capacity as pastor and doctor of all Christians, not merely in his private capacity…and it must be clear that he speaks as spiritual head of the Church universal. Then it is ONLY when, in this capacity, he teaches some doctrine of FAITH OR MORALS that he is infallible.

2. Further it must be sufficiently evident that he INTENDS to teach with all the fullness and finality of his supreme Apostolic authority, in other words that he wishes to determine some point of doctrine in an absolutely final and irrevocable way, or to define it in the technical sense.

3. Finally for an ex cathedra decision it must be clear that the pope INTENDS to bind the whole Church. To demand internal assent from all the faithful to his teaching under pain of incurring “spiritual shipwreck” (naufragium fidei) according to the expression used by Pius IX in defining the Immaculate Conception.
Benny, you essentially render Jesus’ own promise to Peter in Matt. 16:18 impotent with your comment. Please tell us where to “feed in the correct pasture” if we cannot be sure of the protection of the Pope by the Holy Spirit in the area of faith and morals?

Lastly, Benny, and I do not mean any disrespect, but your assertions that the pope is not endowed with the charism (i.e. gratuitous gift) of infallibility in the succession of Peter then you espouse a heretical viewpoint. Vatican 1 specifically decreed that:

“So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.” (Vatican I, 1869b, chap. 4, s. 9dded).

So Benny please take heed to your own scripture quote in Titus:

Titus 3:10-11: A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid; Knowing that he that is such an one is subverted and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Benny my brother, I pray that you will research and come to understand and trust that papal infallibility requires strict guidelines and is not taken lightly by those who carry Peter’s shepherd staff. In addition, do not confuse infallibility and impeccability which are two distinct concepts. We Catholics, as opposed to Protestants, submit our will and private judgments to the doctrinal authority given by Christ to the Peter and his successors versus picking and choosing according to our own understanding and preferences. Please consider what I‘ve said and I’ll pray for you as I’ll hope you will do for me.
In Truth,
Matthew

Benny here:

I said that Popes are not infallible; This is a true statement.

YES!
When speaking "ex cathedra" on faith and morals, but not new doctrine since Revelation of the Apostles, the things they say are infallible(hence you say he is infallible).These words he speaks are true and cannot be wrong.I AGREE.

This does not make the Pope himself infallible,just the words he is speaking.

Popes sin just as we do.Can you agree to this.

If you agree then that means they are not infallible.----If you do not agree then you are saying that all Popes have an automatic pass into Heaven. This cannot be true or they wouldn't have to confess their sins to a fellow Holy Man of God.

-------------------------------------------------
Your words:
I have a couple of observations here. First, please tell me (us) the "trick" of how one notices if a pope is “straying from the pasture of God and into the fields of the devil?” Do you realize what you are saying here? You are saying that popes are not infallible in the area of FAITH and MORALS when they make a pronouncement “ex cathedra,” but you are implying that somehow YOU know better than the Vicar of Christ appointed and protected by God.
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I didn't say anything about faith and morals and "ex cathedra"...Just not infallible...Which the above explanation is about.

The trick to knowing when the Pope or anybody else is straying is to go by the words of Jesus:

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire.

Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

By their fruits you shall know them....Look at the fruits that have developed since Vatican II---Priest molesting boys,Catholic schools,convents,missions and monasteries closing,people touching the body of Jesus with unclean hands at communion,social gathering in Church of clapping of hands and hugging,etc.etc.etc.----I cannot call these good fruits can you? --Scripture--

Mark 11:15 And they came to Jerusalem. And when he was entered into the temple, he began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple: and over threw the tables of the moneychangers and the chairs of them that sold doves.

Mark 11:16 And he suffered not that any man should carry a vessel through the temple.

Mark 11:17 And he taught, saying to them: Is it not written: My house shall be called the house of prayer to all nations, but you have made it a den of thieves.

HOUSE OF PRAYER

When priests,bishops etc. stray from keeping traditions of the Church and stray from dogmas(such as birth control) and others. As the Shepperd of the flock it is the obligation of the Pope to admonish the sinner and rebuke them in order to get them back into the correct teachings of the Church traditions and scripture..When a Pope does not do this he is consenting to their sins.Therefore he is as guilty as they are.
Scripture
Romans 1:28 And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness: full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity: whisperers,

Romans 1:30 Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Romans 1:31 Foolish, dissolute: without affection, without fidelity, without mercy.

Romans 1:32 Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death: and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.

James 2:10 And whosoever shall keep the whole law, but offend in one point, is become guilty of all.

Yes I will pray for you; I am always in need of prayers for this world is corrupt and it is very hard to stay on the strait and narrow path.Most especially when you can not even go to a Catholic Church in any city or country and not be able to have the same Mass everywhere as it used to be.

Benny,
You are still not getting the MAJOR difference between infallibility and IMPECCABILITY. You are confusing the two concepts.

You said:
“Popes sin just as we do. Can you agree to this.”
“If you agree then that means they are not infallible.----If you do not agree then you are saying that all Popes have an automatic pass into Heaven. This cannot be true or they wouldn't have to confess their sins to a fellow Holy Man of God.”
To be clear, the Pope, the Vicar of Christ has been given the charism of infallibility pertaining to the areas of faith and morals ONLY. He is not infallible in everything he does, especially when it comes to sinning. Pope John Paul II who is most certainly the holiest man of God that I’ve encountered in my lifetime was still a sinner and he freely admitted during his pontificate that he went to confession weekly. Now if he needs confession that frequently then so do we!

Impeccability on the other hand means that a person is so perfect in their character that they are incapable of sinning. No Pope is impeccable and none has ever claimed to be. So yes I agree that Popes can and do sin. Only Jesus and his blessed mother who God preemptively saved from the effects of original sin were impeccable.

Encarta dictionary states:
Infallibility--incapable of making a mistake; certain not to fail; incapable of being mistaken in matters of doctrine and dogma

Impeccability--so perfect or flawless as to be beyond criticism; so perfect in character as to be incapable of sinning.

Benny, you also stated that:

“By their fruits you shall know them....Look at the fruits that have developed since Vatican II---Priest molesting boys, Catholic schools, convents, missions and monasteries closing, people touching the body of Jesus with unclean hands at communion, social gathering in Church of clapping of hands and hugging, etc.etc.etc.----I cannot call these good fruits can you?”

I have to point out to you that all of these things are committed by the PEOPLE not the Pope. Not to mention that some of the things you mention are not bad or evil they are at best disrespectful. The Pope appoints Bishops to oversee their diocese and cannot possibly micro-manage every little situation. The Pope is not omnipresent. However, I agree with you in that those Bishops who turn a blind eye to outright disdain of Catholic teaching should be reprimanded by the Pope if it comes to his attention.

Lastly Benny, I appreciate your scripture quotes, but I would ask you to be careful in your assessments. Ultimately it is not our place to judge the hearts, minds, or actions (fruits as you say) of the Pope, nor anyone else lest we run the risk of pointing out the speck in another’s eye and missing the massive plank in our own (Matthew 7:1-5).
In Truth,
Matthew

Benny Here:

I am not judging anybody, for I sin just like everybody. What I am doing is looking at the tree and observing the fruits that are growing on the tree(or vine).

Simple; If the church was going in the right direction there would be more schools,covents monestaries,etc. being built not closing down.

As Our Lord said:

John 15:1 I am the true vine: and my Father is the husbandman.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:3 Now you are clean, by reason of the word which I have spoken to you.

John 15:4 Abide in me: and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me.

John 15:5 I am the vine: you the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

John 15:6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither: and they shall gather him up and cast him into the fire: and he burneth.

John 15:7 If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will: and it shall be done unto you.

John 15:8 In this is my Father glorified: that you bring forth very much fruit and become my disciples.

When all these things are happening that means branches are dying;not thriving.

The Pope is the Holy chosen of God and therefore we are to reverence him: but;

If the Sheppard of the sheep goes to sleep and lets his flock stray is he doing his job? Is this not consenting to let the leaders in the flock do what they want? Such as stray into unhealthy pastures and teach things that are not according to tradition and the Bible.

I have no clue what the Pope does in every day life and what situations he has to deal with but I can say this: No lay person like myself should go to any of the churches where the Bishops are not following traditions and the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

Galatians 1:6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel.

Galatians 1:7 Which is not another: only there are some that trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.

Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

Doesn't the Gospel taught by the Apostles also include the traditions as being part of the Gospel?

Prostetants being saved outside the Church is not a part of this Gospel.

Think about it from all angles..

Benny

Benny,
Please see my post on the other thread that I directed to Bob Wolfe (Is The Catholic Church The Antichrist? Inquiring Minds Want To Know...)
then get back to me.
In Truth,
Matthew

Benny Here:

Matthew I could not find anything directed to a Bob Wolfe so I don't know what you wanted me to read.

Question: Can you tell me what, if anything, has been said ex-cathedra in the past 50 to 60 years?

Benny,
Please see the "Foundations of the Faith" thread. Sorry for the confusion.
Matthew

Benny Here:

Matthew I will go and try to read this.

Same Question: Can you tell me what, if anything, has been said ex-cathedra in the past 50 to 60 years?

Benny

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