Do Catholics pray to Mary?

An issue to remember here is the non-Catholics are without the Eucharist (true worship of God), so they define 'prayer' not as a conversation, but as a form of worship. Which is why there's so much confusion among protestants about this.

As you pointed out, we do not worship Mary: a Mass always consists of worship of Christ. But conversations ('prayer') with Mary enable us to become closer to Christ.

Jay

My mother is Catholic, I am not. She spends her time reading Catholic books about the saints and mary. She does not read the Bible she does not study its messages. It says in the Bible, in more than one place, that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. Can you please explain why the Mary-Worship?

Click here for an article addressing "Mary-worship", Kahlil.

i'm sure all of our mothers know about us, her child but once we become adults we are sent out on our own. can your mother tell me your thoughts? your ways? your relationship with and to the Father? Mary is not of Heaven but of this earth, so why should i pray to her and practice the Eucharist which is just communion translated to Catholic. to say that only Catholics truly worship God is a statement i wouldn't dare to utter. now there are spiritually dead people but if i told you that if you did not speak in toungues and cast out demons you were not saved then i would be calling God a liar. you have to keep your mouth of God's anointed, that's unstable ground. p.s.- i talk to God everywhere mostly not on my knees and with eyes closed, because i can't stay there all day. but even as i type this, i'm talking to Him.

Paul

I have a question about prayer to Mary and the saints:

Can they hear us? I know that they are alive in Christ. I am also willing to accept that they can communicate with us. What is philosophically problematic is the idea that Mary and the saints can hear more than one prayer at a time. Simply because they have been exalted does not give them god-like qualities (i.e. omnicience or omnipresence). Such qualities belong to infinity, which by definition belongs to God alone.

Anyone care to tackle this sticky issue?

Dave

dear Dave,
the Bible clearly condemns communicating with the dead. once we reach Heaven we are in our glorified states but we are only to bear witness and not to communicate with the living (Hebrews 11:39). Jesus never prayed to the saints before Him, so why should we? no pun intended but let's say one of our deceased relatives was the saint of saints and we tried to communicate with them, why couldn't this be equavilent to praying to Peter or Mary? i don't have a reason to myself because even they aren't angels and angels minister to us through God's commands, not humans, we're esteemed higher than angels by God Himself. Heaven is the reward, the vacation, not work. Let the saints rest-lol. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit have always been and will always be, we know that. so let's keep asking Them and Them only!

Paul

Again, Paul, you speak without knowing what you’re talking about. First, we know that we are one with those who have died (Eph 4:4) – death after all was conquered by Christ. Next we know that those who have done well will be given more to oversee (Matt 25:21). Finally, we know that prayer to the dead was a common practice from the earliest of times (2 Maccabees 12:45 - Note that Martin Luther removed this last book from the protestant Bible, because he didn’t like prayer for dead).

Did you even read that verse from Hebrews before you cited it? It has nothing to do with this subject, Paul (big surprise). Please tell me where the Bible clearly condemns prayer for dead. Please. Oh, and while you’re at it: Answer the other questions we’ve been asking for months now. Paul, I’m frustrated that you continue posting incorrect information on our blog and you won’t answer the simplest of questions. Why is that, Paul?

God bless,
Jay

Paul,

What an unfortunate view of Heaven you have. Do you really think that we are "working" so hard on Earth just so that we can go have a party with the "spirit in the sky" when its all over? Do you not know that Heaven will not be some lounge, but rather the eternal continuance of all that "work" we are doing?

The saints spend eternity working with and for God, crying out for vengence (Rev. 6:10), singing to God (Rev. 7:10), and serving God (Rev. 7:15). SERVING, Paul!!! That is what they are doing up there right now, serving. We are being created in the image of Christ so that we can... what? Kick back in our recliners? Lay on the clouds eating Philly cream cheese bars? Noooo! The image of Christ is of total self-sacrifice. And that is what is required of us. Just as a husband and wife are called to completely sacrifice themselves for the benefit of the other, fully offering themselves to each other without reservation, so it is with Christ and His Church.

This is such a commonly misunderstood point. Heaven is not the fulfillment of all your pent up desires. Those desires are what Christ is freeing you from. Rather, Heaven is the fullfillment of your innermost need, the need for complete and utter devotion to our Lord. It is this beauty of perpetual and eternal sacrifice, Christ for the Church and the Church for Christ, that Heaven consists of. That means an eternity of DOING. And not of doing for yourself, but of doing for others. Of building up the Body so that it can edify the Lord. It is in that process that we find true satisfaction, because Christ continuously and unselfishly fills us up in return.

Talk about missing the point. As for asking the Lord only, I hope you are not going to be a hypocrite. In other words, please don't ever ask anyone to pray for you again, since you should stick to God alone! And oh yeah, when are you going to answer our other questions? You still have not answered me how you know that those Gospels you keep quoting are actually God's Word...

In Christ (truth, but in love),
Dave

dear guys,
i'm sorry about the Hebrews 11:39 comment, i meant Hebrews 12:1, those who died because of persecution before us. check out Hebrews 1:14. the angels don't inherit salvation, we do. we will praise and worship God in Heaven and they will continue to serve like always as well as praise and worship. Jesus said in my Father's House there are many mansions....I will go and prepare a place for you.........where i will be, you will be also. our treasures and life are in Heaven waiting on us, accumulating interest. if the earth and heavens of today won't exist, who are we going to serve (human-wise)? we will be rewarded for the work we do down here, building the Kingdom as well as the work we do here in the Kingdom (church), through the blessings of our Lord according to His riches and glory. Revelation 22:12, some will be punished, others will be rewarded. Matthew 7:21-27, Jesus is clearly looking for Kingdom Builders here on earth, not in Heaven. if you are only cooking with yeast, (building yourself up) and not the Kingdom, you will not inherit Eternal Rest. no one in Heaven but Jesus can intercede for me. i accept all prayers according to God's Will and Purpose for my life now, with a clean heart and humble spirit from anyone who prays that for me. but your statues and shrines are of the dead seem pointless and vain for praying to (but they are beautiful works of art). they are already where we will be (i hope), in Heaven. Mary and Peter can't get us there, they can't even buy the ticket or book the flight, reserve lodge or make us breakfast-lol. but they will be there to tell us the awesome events that they encountered to get there, Glory to God. i can't wait, but there is more work to do................

in Jesus' Holy name- God Bless you (the saints, i know!) AMEN,
Paul

Paul,
Just so you know Hebrews 12:1 is talking about the Saints in heaven, but it seems to indicate they do help us. Also, we don't become angels when we die. The angels already exist and have existed (Satan was an angel). You seem to suggest we will be angels - this is incorrect.

Clearly the Bible indicates that Angels do have effects in our lives. Just look at Sodom for example - angels came to warn one family to flee before the city was destroyed. You don't have to take advantage of the saints and angel's help to get to heaven, but that's like walking 1,000 miles when you could drive: who would want to?

Finally, you can't understand the book of Revelation if you don't understand the Catholic Mass on which it is founded (I'll write a post on this at some point), so it isn't beneficial for you to quote much from it. Heaven is not a place where we sit around and benefit from our work here, quite the opposite, in fact. We are on earth to learn to be holy, so that we can (actively) worship God in heaven for eternity.

God bless,
Jay

Amen brother!

Hello,

I am a Protestant who has a deep respect for Catholics and for most Catholic teachings. I can see a lot of your point of view. For instance, I don't see why people who have died stop being part of our Christian family. I think you are perfectly right that the Bible portrays Heaven not as some vacation in the human sense but that our joy in heaven will be to continue doing the things that we were encouraged to do on earth. I see no reason why we should consider serving one another work. Did Jesus think it such an onerous burden to serve us? No, in spite of His sufferings He loved us so much that all of it must have seemed like a joy to Him because He knew He was in the act of saving His children.

This is but one example of how I have no problem with some teachings that many Protestants object to.

However, this all falls apart when it comes to Mary. Its always the same. Catholic explainations start out sounding reasonable enough. And I actually believe that Catholics are prefectly sincere when they say that they don't worship Mary. And yet once Catholics have laid out the reasonable part of their argument, then you go on and act and speak about Mary in such terms that I just cannot escape the conclusion, no matter how hard I try, that you must not realize what you are doing. Language is such a powerful thing. To say that Mary is our "Mother" and we are her children for example elevates her far above the human and even the saintly pack. This is the highest mythological language possible and of the same type used for The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Personally I have nothing against honoring Mary. I have nothing against having her as an especially holy example for us in life. I have no problem calling her the greatest of the saints, or acknowledging her most special role in being the first Christian long before Peter and Paul. I have no problem asking her to pray for me like I would ask a church memeber to pray for me. I think the Hail Mary is beautiful.

But I cannot accept terms like Queen of Heaven, Co-Redemptrix etc. It is just going too far.

(BTW, Isn't God our Father and our Mother in that he is completely sufficient for all of our needs? Why do we need a Mother in Heaven? This escapes me. It seems to me that Mary's example as a mother and as the first Christian seems sufficient to represent the feminine in Christianity. But I digress....)

Peggy,

What a wonderful comment! I have and still do struggle through these same issues. Having accepted the authority of the Church, I know that it is I who need to more fully understand her teachings, rather than the Church who should water them down for my benefit. Nonetheless, I have shared much of your sentiment. I would like to share a little of what I have learned:

First, the title co-redemptrix is not at all a title that implies "co-equality". Rather, it is a title that applies to every Christian, you and I included, each time we help birth another soul into the Christian faith. It applies uniquely to Mary, however, because she birthed the instrument of salvation itself, thus holding a very special role in bringing salvation to the world.

Second, Queen of Heaven is a title that is due Mary as a result of her motherhood of our Lord. In ancient Israel, it was not the wife of the king who reigned as the queen, but rather his mother. Though she did not hold the authority of the king, she did sit at his right hand and acted as a trusted advisor. People seeking the king's favor would often go through the queen mother because, it was thought, the king would not refuse his own mother. This is where the title Queen of Heaven originates.

Third, God is in fact both Father and Mother. Nonetheless, God still creates the Church to be His Bride. Does that mean his is not sufficient by Himself? By no means. We must understand that even though human creatures are not necessary, they are desirable to God. It is the same with Mary. God created man and woman in His ("Our") image. Thus, man and woman are collectively a reflection of God. The original man and woman polluted that image and brought death to the world. God became man. In order to do so, His Holy Spirit over-shadowed a woman, filling her with grace. Thus, life returned to the world through one man and one woman. Now Christ was fully man and fully God. Mary was fully woman, and though not deity, was fully inspired by God, or full of God.

Consider the ark of the covenant. Though made of created materials and formed by human hands, it contained the Most High God. This made it so Holy that even touching it resulted in immediate death. So it is with Mary, who is also a created being and the "container" of the Most High God in the form of Jesus Christ.

This is all a great mystery, and one which I must confess is too great for me to fully comprehend. I commend to you, however, John 19:26-27. Meditate on these verses, what they mean, and why they appear in Scripture. Imagine yourself in the place of John, listening to Christ's warm admonition.

Finally, I would urge you to read two books. First, read "First Comes Love:" by Scott Hahn. Chapters 9, 10, and 11 are especially profound and speak very closely to your idea that God is both Father and Mother. After that (and only after) read "Hail, Holy Queen", again by Scott Hahn. These two books present the most thorough treatment of the Virgin that I have come across. Your questions are very piercing, and probably go beyond what a newby like myself can offer. But I would sure love to hear any more questions or comments that you have.

In Christ,
Dave

I was raised in the catholic church and never experienced what it meant to be "spirit filled".
Though I prayed the prescribed prayers and followed religious traditions, it all seemed pretty ritualistic. To be honest I really became comfortable with living a sinful life since all I had to do is go to the priest and confess. Sound familiar? Well, a few years ago I learned that being "spirit filled" came not by works but by having a personal relationship with Jesus. I was never led by anyone in the catholic church to give my life to the Lord. Why is it not in practice for catholics to recieve Jesus as their Lord and Savior AND to live a spirit filled life as well? Something is missing. People need a church where they not only recieve Christ, but they also learn about his love and what it TRUELY means to be spirit filled.

Hans,
It sounds to me like you were seeking an emotional experience that made you feel good and that's what you found in your current church.

A true "spirit-filled" existence can only come about through consuming the Eucharist - see John 6:47 and following. So you gave up the Sacraments Christ imposed for a more emotional experience. But something will always be missing: God Himself as the Bread of Life which we consume for our salvation.

God bless,
Jay

I would only change one thing stated by Jay, and that is the word "imposed". This seems to be the whole problem of so many cradle Catholics, a problem that usually stems from improper catechetical teachings and parents who do not practice the faith outside of Sunday service. These "rituals" are nothing of the sort, and the sacraments are certainly not imposed. Rather, they are an unbelievable and totally undeserved gift from our Lord! That He would literally give us His body and blood should make us tremble at its very reception. Instead, many Catholics do not even understand what they are receiving, viewing it as the ho-hum procession that signals the fact that Mass is finally over.\

The liturgies of the Word and the Eucharist are the processes by which we are lifted up to God and by which Christ comes down to us. They are designed to induce a meditative state that leads to the filling of the Holy Spirit, particpation in Jesus Christ, and full presence before the Father. However, when the liturgies are not understood, they certainly cannot be practiced. God is present in both the Word and the Eucharist; but if I fail to discern His presence, it is of no benefit to me. With so many Catholics failing to discern (often because of poor or complete lack of education) it is a no wonder that the more emotional Protestant experience, which substitutes catchy tunes, foot stomping beats, and charismatic speakers for actual effort on the part of the participant, has such appeal to cultural Catholics.

The answer to this problem is not to leave the faith. While this may be easier to understand, and more pleasant at first, at its apex it is significantly less fulfilling because it cannot achieve the fullness of the Truth. Instead, it requires a dedication to learn about the Catholic faith and its rich complexity. It requires a committment to practice before, during, and after the Mass. And from those in the Catholic community, it requires vigilance in ensuring that what is being taught in the parish education programs is not some meaningless ritual, but the pearls that have been entrusted to the Church from Christ Himself.

In Christ,
Dave

I don't see the point in praying to Mary. The Bible is very explicit when it says, "There is but one intercessor between God and man, that of the son, Jesus Christ." So in reality, there is absolutely NO reason to pray to ANYONE except Christ. It's a waste. Why do it when you can pray directly to Jesus, who paid the ultimate price for our sins? Thank you.

Mike,
Do you ask others to pray for you? If so, what's the point? There's only one intercessor, right?

When we "pray" to Mary we are simply asking her to pray for us. The Bible is clear that the prayers of the holy are powerful and that those who have died in Christ are still part of the church. You don't have to ask Mary to pray for you - there's no demand that you do it and it is not necessary for your salvation. Just as you don't have to ask others to pray for you. However, why would you not want the mother of Jesus praying for you? Personally, it certainly can't hurt!

God bless,
Jay

"which substitutes catchy tunes, foot stomping beats, and charismatic speakers for actual effort on the part of the participant, has such appeal to cultural Catholics." -- Dave

Dave, you so acurrately described a phase I went through when I frequented a Protestant faith-group. I once felt Sunday Mass was empty because there were no rock/pop gospel tunes,and most folks did not sing. Later I realized that I came to Sunday Mass not to rock at tunes (as I had seen at Protestant "services"), but to tune myself with the Rock of the Ages.

"which substitutes catchy tunes, foot stomping beats, and charismatic speakers for actual effort on the part of the participant, has such appeal to cultural Catholics." -- Dave

Dave, you so acurrately described a phase I went through when I frequented a Protestant faith-group. I once felt Sunday Mass was empty because there were no rock/pop gospel tunes,and most folks did not sing. Later I realized that I came to Sunday Mass not to rock at tunes (as I had seen at Protestant "services"), but to tune myself with the Rock of the Ages.

Sorry folks about the double post.

I am an Anglican that has found praying the rosary has brought me closer to God. In the rosary I am meditating the events of christs life and asking for prayer. We Anglicans believe in the real presence of Christs body and blood in the sacraments. Our priests pray the same prayer over the elements that a Catholic priest does. Mary does pray for us and I believe praying the rosary give me time with God getting closer to my Savior.

Dear All,
check out the pics of the late Pope kissing the koran, and worshipping with budda's statue...
oh, and the statue of MARY...
Now, what was that about graven images?
JESUS is the only one to intercede - PERIOD -

Please note the following scripture concerning the Mother of Jesus!:
matt 12:46-50
46. While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49. And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50. For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Keith,
A couple of points to consider.

1) You mention "graven images," which I'll assume is a reference to the 10 commandments. Not too long after this, God commands the Ark of the Covenant to be built which includes graven statues of angels. Is God violating His own commandment? Or are you misinterpreting it - note that the commandment says "worship of graven images."

2) Jesus is the only intercessor between man and God - we agree. But can their be intercessors between us and Jesus? If you answer "no," then you have never asked another person to pray for you? This is intercession on their part. The Bible even says that we should do so, which introduces an intercessor between us and Jesus. If ordinary humans can do this, why not Jesus' mother who we know was holy? Why not?.

3) In current times, most protestant churches are starting to recognize the unique role of Mary in Scripture (she's the only one at every major point in Christ's life - birth, beginning of ministry, crucifixion, birth of the Church, etc). Obviously you disagree. But suffice it to say that I could quote as many verses that suggest the importance of Mary - Is Jesus discounting Mary here? Or is He trying to teach a spiritual point that you're missing? Think about it and reread the passage.

4) Finally, Pope John Paul II recognized that in every religion there is some truth. Obviously some, like protestant Christianity, have more truth than others, like Buddism or Islam. However, the Pope attempted to start dialogues with these faiths in order to bring them closer to Christ. By first recognizing our similarities, we can then discuss differences without animosity. In each complaint, the Pope was attempting to start this dialogue and he did much to move in that direction. After all, Christ calls us to be witnesses to all men, not just to Christians.

I hope you read some additional articles from this site.

God bless,
Jay

hello all,
Jay,
In response, I am trying to be brief but accurate, while still addressing your points mentioned above.
Yes, I was referring to the following scripture concerning graven images:
(all scriptures are KJV unless noted!)
Exodus 20 verse 4&5, (4)Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
(5)Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

secondly, According to the word, Jesus IS God:
Isiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 1:1 & 14
(1)In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(and now going on to 14...)
(14) 14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Also another in Collosians 2:8,9,&10
8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

concerning your point 3, please give me some of the scriptures about Mary's importance, and what is the point I may be missing?

and now about point 4,
I went to dictionary.com to look up religion, so that we are on the same page as to it's definition. (we can of course choose another way of defining it, but I believe we both know generally what a religion is and isn't)
The satanic church is a religion. Obviously there would not be any book kissing there...
Matthew 10:14 comes to my mind,it refers to when the apostles experienced rejection, they didn't rub shoulder's and compare notes:
matt 10:14 & 15
(14)And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
(15) Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
I cannot comprehend why the Pope would "kiss up" to islam (sorry, the pun was somewhat unavoidable)

And finally, I cannot find any scipture that says Mary is Holy. Of course I have found many that speak of "that which is in her" being Holy and being of the Holy Spirit.
Best regards and God bless everyone!

Everyone,
It is so sad for me to see all of this bickering and arguing. Doesn't anyone realize that Jesus Christ is the Only way to get to heaven. We all have the same love for Him. I can tell that all of us are fighting over scripture and laws. I am sorry though, but I cannot agree with you about Mary. I do believe that she was blessed and I recognize her as a great woman. For goodness sake, she carried the san of God. She also was the only woman in history to have a virgin birth. Lets face it though, is she still a virgin. That is one thing that bothers me. I believe that Mary is no longer a virgin. Didn't Mary marry Joseph, of course. I pitty Joseph then, because she was a very unfaithful wife. Plus, how can we know that the people in heaven can hear us. Nowhere in the bible does it state that the people in heaven can hear us. I ask people on earth to pray for me, because I know that they can hear me. I don't know if the people in Heaven can hear me, so why would I want to waste my time asking them to pray for me, when I can go directly to God. Also by saying that they can hear all of our prays is giving them the qualities of God. God is the only on that is omnipresent. I have been researching catholism a lot lately and the more I read the more I get confused. I would rather just trust in Jesus, who I know can hear my prayers. I also believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven. He shed his blood for our sins. He had so much love for us that he would do that. I don't understand the Eucarist. How can you say that the wine and bread actually turn into Jesus's blood and body. Jesus made the sacrifice once. If you read Luke 22:17-23, he says do this in remembrance of me. Well, I have a lot of questions, so maybe you can tackle these ones first.
Your sister in Christ

I have been married for 30 years and the marriage has managed to surrive even though my wife is catholic and I am not. I tried early on in our relationship to discuss what I believe to be serious problems in the catholic theology. It only troubled my wife that she could not answer my questions, so she no longer will discuss anything to do with the religion.

I have even tried to disuss the issues with many of the prists, but when pushed to justify some of the practices/belief's using the bible as reference, they pull away quickly and stand behind "You have to understand the difference between tradition and what is talked about in the bible. We catholics believe in our traditions."

I just wish one priest would have the guts to sit down over time and defend , yes defend, the practices of the church. To date, none will. If you do not accept what the catholic churchs puts out, you are told you just do not have faith.

And yes, all this from an organization that will shelter and protect it's pedophiles.

Terry,

There are plenty of resources on the internet defending the teachings and doctrines of the Catholic faith from a purely biblical perspective. There are lots of great books (like "Surprised by Truth") too.

The Catholic Church Has the Answer is a great place to start.

Part of the reason for your frustration may be due to the style of apologetics your priest was trained on. At the beginning of the 20th century Catholic apologetics usually used Scriptures to prove that Jesus had given the Church the authority to make rules and traditions in general. In that style of apologetics, there is only one question: "can we trust, based on our reading of Scripture, that everything the Church says is reliable even before we know what the Church says?" Once that is established everything follows.

During medieval times, however, the appeal to Church authority was considered the "worst form of argument" - a last resort and that an appeal to the Scriptures was preferrable. The early Church used appealed to the authority of Scripture preferentially as well. I have noticed that apologetics material published in the latter half of the 20th century tends to follow the style of the early and medieval Church in this regard. For each issue, they defend the Church's teaching biblically and quote the early Church to answer the charge that they just invented the doctrine recently.

Terry, do you accept the Scripture as a reliable, authoritative, and inerrant source of information?

I believe the bible at face value. If I must question any portion then all is in question. Therefore, I accept the bible as fact, the inherent word of God.

Pope's are officals of the Catholic Church, elected by men, therefore I will not follow blindly the word of a man simply because he has the title of pope. He is a man like me, a sinner and one who falls short of the glory of God.

The traditions of the church have been put in place by men, who were elected by men. Many who were/are good, and many who were not. The history of the church speacks for itself.

I truly believe that the Catholic Church has misled its people and encourges practices which are contrary to the word of God.

I went to that site and it explained nothing to me. I have heard all of that already. I would really like it if someone would tackle my questions though. No one has tried to even answer them. I do believe that the bible is the infallable word of God, but not the Catholic bible. I hav researched the extra books and even read some of them. My bible has been proven tested and proven again. The books that are included in the Catholic bible cannot be proven, because there are some geographical errors and such. It cannot be the infallable word of God if there are errors. So I do accept Scripture as a reliable, authoritative, and inerrant source of information, but not the extra books of the catholic bible. Terry, I had the same problem, I was dating a guy that was catholic and he could not answer my questions and became frustrated. SO much to the point of breaking up with me. I will be praying for your wife. May God be with all of you.

Barbara,
Start here:

• Should we believe the Bible? How do we know it's True?
  
• Why do protestants and Catholics have different Bibles?
  

Second, there are geographical errors throughout Scripture - it's not a geography textbook, it's a religious book. It's infallible on issues of faith and morals, not on geography.

God bless,
Jay

Those were not the questions I wanted answers to. I trust that the bible is the infallable word of God and If there were extra books then ok. I read through them and they are not neccesary for my salvation. The questions I want answered are the ones above. Didn't you see my other blog. I was just commenting on the other blogs I saw. I would like to know how Mary and the Saints can hear you. I am not going to retype the whole other blog so please look at it. I am turning to a Catholic site for answers, because I feel it is better to go to the source then talk to people who are against them.

Is it possible for a marriage between someone that is Catholic and Non-demonational to survive? What are the statistics? Would you happen to know. I am going to make my point of believing that Jesus himself said that he is the way the truth and the light. Mary was special, but Jesus was baptised by on of his disciples, why don't we pray to him? Why not Moses, he prayed on the mountain with Jesus for 40 days and 40 nights? I will stick to the bible when it comes to who I should pray to. I cannot judge the Catholic religion, but, if it comes to one thing that makes me a little weary it's the fact that I have met a lot of Catholic's that think it is okay to practice unholy acts outside of the church. As long as there is a confessional booth with a preist waiting for them. We did come into this world sinners, but we are to continually strive to be more like Christ. And if we are not doing that then our works are in vain.

Barbara,

You wrote:

"I trust that the bible is the infallable word of God and If there were extra books then ok. I read through them and they are not neccesary for my salvation."

Who are you to decide what books are necessary for your salvation? What if I decided that that The Gospel of John wasn't necessary for mine? It only matters what the Holy Spirit, through the Church, has taught us. For over 1200 years the books in the Catholic bible were considered canonical. The 'reformers' removed those which did not suit their theology.

Above you have asked many questions regarding the Catholic Church, and that is good. But you are being unrealistic if you think that any one poster on this blog has the time to answer them all.

Plus it is unnecessary. There are plenty of sites on the internet where you can get answers to your questions. For example:

Mary's Perpetual Virginity: http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

Praying to Saints: http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

The Eucharist: http://www.catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp

The Sacrifice of the Mass: http://www.catholic.com/library/Sacrifice_of_the_Mass.asp

If, after reading any of these, you have more specific questions I will be happy to answer them.

Another good resource is this site by Gary Hoge: http://catholicoutlook.com/ As a convert from evangelical protestantism he has an excellent insight into your questions.

Nikki,

You are right that Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. Mary knows that too. Pehaps a better way to think about it is that when we pray to Mary, we are actually praying *through* her, to God, the same way you might ask a friend to pray for you, or you might pray for a friend.

Catholics understand that the Church isn't just the people we go to Mass with here on earth, it is also those who are in heaven with God - the saints. They still love us and can intercede for us, just like our friends on earth can.

Mary is the greatest of the saints, for no one loved Jesus more perfectly than His own mother. At the wedding feast she interceded for the guests when the wine was finished ("Do whatever He tells you"), she will intercede for you too.

Nikki,

Sorry, I neglected to answer question one: it is possible for a marriage between a protestant and a Catholic to not only survive, but to thrive.

Any Catholics who think it's okay to sin today because God will forgive them tomorrow are committing the additional sin of presumption, whereby they "[presume] upon God's... mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion...) (CCC 2092).

If you meet such Catholics you should remind them that God can see straight through them.

Nikki, show me one Catholic who says its ok to practice unholy acts outside the Church and then confesses these actions to a priest.

The Catholics who condone unholy acts most probably do not confess them. There are Catholics who do not condone sin yet fall into it anyways (much like an alcoholic does) and then go to confession because it provides great help in their struggle to be more like Christ.

The Roman Catholic Church is the only organization which both acknowledges the seriousness of sin AND provides continuing help to those who repeatedly commit serious sin. I beg you to prove me wrong on this because I desperately want to believe that at least some of my Protestant brothers and sisters are still capable of performing the most basic level of pastoral care.

As for asking Mary and the Saints to pray for you, the Bible is clear you can and should pray for everyone else. This means everyone else can and should pray for you. This includes Mary, Elijah, Moses, John the Baptist, and Jesus' disciples - though I doubt anyone would ask Judas to pray for them.

Just to let you know that I believe that it is totally wrong that you pray *through* Mary to get to God. Jesus is the way to and through God, Jesus said that himself. Otherwise Jesus would serve no other purpose than to be the human healer. In human form Mary interceded for Jesus. Mary loved Jesus in such an honorable way because she did give birh to him, just as any other other would. Mary was used as a vessel. I ask for other Saints to pray for me. But, I do not pray to them to pray for me, because eventually on judgement day I will be the one standing before Christ. But, when I ask other's to pray for me they are praying to Jesus. Because there is no other link between the two. Jesus said plain as day he was the truth, the way, and the light how can you contradict the word of Jesus himself and go straight to Mary. God preordained for her to be the mother of Jesus, even at her birth, she had no choice. It all fits into God's untouchable, flawless plan for us to honor him and worship his honor and grace. Besides, how do you even know that Mary hears your prayers? Faith? I would like to see in the bible somewhere that Mary first hears your prayer's, second answer's them by praying to God for you.

Nikki, if you pray for me, does that offend the Lord? If I ask you to pray for me, does that offend the Lord? If Mary prays for me, does that offend the Lord? If I ask Mary to pray for me, does that offend the Lord?

Have you ever noticed that in the Bible every time God blesses someone, he almost always does it through a human agent? How did God give his people Manna or part the Red Sea for his people? acting through Moses. How did God save widows from famine? acting through Elijah and Elisha. How did God rescue people from the flood? he instructed Noah to build an Ark. How did God deliver people from Goliath and the Philistines? He acted through David and Samson. How did he come to earth? he acted through Mary. How did God pour out his forgiveness on Job's friends? He acted through Job. How did he bring the Ninevites to repentence? He acted through Jonah. How did God save Moses from Pharoah? he acted through the Midwives, his sister, and mother. How did God save himself (Jesus) from Herod? He acted through Joseph. How did God save Jacob and his Son's from dying of starvation? He acted through Joseph.

Yes, there are times he acts directly but the most common method is indirectly through a human person. Why would God prefer to act through his creatures rather than directly? Once you can answer that question, you will understand how devotion to Mary and the Saints glorifies Christ.

Nikki,

I suspect that you are confusing the word "pray" with the word "worship" - whilst we worship through prayer, not every prayer is worship. Here are some definitions...

Pray:
1. To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.

2. To make a fervent request or entreaty.

v. tr.
3. To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.

4. To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: "Pray be careful."

5. To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.

6. To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.

Only definition number one involves worship. You say you "ask for other saints to pray" for you? Congratulations: you're praying to the saints!

God bless.

Hi Fidens and Broken Record

I just wanted to say that I enjoy debating with people here, keep it up!

Back to the point though :). Praying to Mary is by no means Biblical. Jesus may have honored her, but he did not say use her as a way to get to Him. Just pray to Him and you'll be fine.

Let's start with 1 Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus"

This means that man can directly pray to Jesus and he will get your prayers to God. It is okay to ask someone who is still living to pray for you, but you don't need to pray to someone who is already dead, that will get you nowhere.

Which brings me to my next two bible verses.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten"
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 "There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that uset divintation, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these thigns are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD they God doth drive them out from before thee."

Of the Deuteronomy text, I read in the Modern English translation of a Catholic Bible that it means in Deuteronomy 18:11 "or be a serpent charmer, medium, or wizard or call forth spirits of the dead."

This shows all of us that contacting and praying to the dead is not only useless, but a sin against God. Search for proof and tell me if you think you found something. I'll be visiting this blog over and over.

David

I guess I'm a little confused ...
Our Protestant brothers and sisters tell us that we don't need to pray to Mary...that Jesus is all we need.
If this is so, then why do they need to ask their friends to pray for them?

Do their friends prayers carry more weight with God?

Does God really need to be flooded with prayers from all of our friends?

Cindy,

What Protestant religion are you? Just curious.

As for asking people to pray for you, that is okay becuase those people are still alive. Asking for someone who is dead does nothing. If you want me to provide scriptural proof, I'll do so. Friend's prayers only carry weight with God when they are alive. The dead praise not the Lord in death.

Jesus is the Mediator between GOD and Men. Since your friends are part of mankind, that is okay to let them pray for you. Mary on the other hand, has already died and cannot do anything for you. "For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything..." Ecclesiastes 9:5

It's not that I dont think Mary was a great person. I just know that in the Bible it tells that the only way to get to God is to pray to Jesus. It does not tell us that we can pray through dead saints or Mary. The key thing to remember is that it is okay for people who are LIVING to pray for other LIVING people, but the dead can't do anything.

David

Many of you have probably spent some time in Latin America. For what it's worth, I resided there for several years and participated in both Roman Catholic and Calvinist (Presbyterian) churches. I have read the above back-and-forth about prayer to Mary and would ask Dave, Jay, or whoever, to opine on the supreme role of Mary in many lesser-developed areas in this region of the world. Many of the Catholic church-goers in these areas believe Mary shares Christ's divinity, and, also, they tend to pray exclusively to Mary, viewing her as their real human savior - certainly, in my mind, losing the Trinity and centrality of Christ's role in the process. I know this is not Roman Catholic teaching, but why does the Church allow these poor, uneducated people to think this way? Does the Church attempt to correct these practices (notions) that have lasted so many years?
All the best,
Michael

Michael,

What Central/South American countries are you speaking of?

My father's side of the family is from Panama. Most of them still live there, in a rural village. They all understand who Mary is and that she is not God. None of them pray "exclusively" to Mary.

I have also spent time in Mexico. The Masses I have been to there are full and the preaching is Christocentric. Yes, the Central/South American Catholics have a strong devotion to our Lady but I wouldn't say that I have ever witnessed them "worshipping" her or putting her on par with Christ. Understand that the Mass itself, which the majority of Central/South American Catholics attend regularly is the perfect act of worship to God...not Mary. So to say that they pray "exclusively" to Mary is false if they attend Mass.

In Christ,
Joe

Joe,

Thanks for your response. I lived in Costa Rica, Colombia and Mexico.

I have been to numerous Christ-centered Roman Catholic services and I found these services to be wonderfully assuring for the state of Christianity. And, as I said before, I have been to many that preach Mary worship. Many people I know in Latin America have told me that they believe Mary is on par with Christ. Also, I am not writing about the structure of the mass, but the hearts and minds of its participants.

So many of the Roman Catholics I know are suprisingly ignorant on matters of Christianity, as are many Protestants of course. While I am no Augustine or Aquinas, I think too many Catholic Latinos cannot articulate, or even consider, the fundamentals of the faith outside the mass, even though they claim to be devout. These fundamentals, as articuled in the Apostles' Creed, need to be clear in the minds of believers today, and, too many times they aren't, especially in Catholic Latin America. They may be stated in the mass each Sunday, but that doesn't mean the people know what they are saying or appreciate what is being said. If that was the case, Mexico City wouldn't be a corrupt, murder-and-kidnapping capital of the world and Colombia wouldn't be one of the world's most dangerous places.

Over the coming years, more and more Christians will need the ablility to convince Muslims of the divine nature of Christ, His Victory over Death, and of the Trinity. This is not an easy task, but it will be a necessary one due to birthrates and immigration patterns.

It has been my experience that curious Muslims have been turned-off from Christianity because, among many other things, they see Christians worship not only Jesus, but also his earthly mother Mary, while calling her the Mother of God and the Mother of the Universe. Muslims have the impression that Christianity is similiar to the ancient religions of the Greeks, with multiple dieties and holy statues. Mary's role as intercessor should shine a brighter light on Christ, according to Church creed, but I think it has the opposite effect much of the time because her role is not understood by many Catholics, and certainly not by non-Catholics. Of course, we cannot shape our faith around their misinterpretations, and their conclusions are wrong, but, regardless, I think the face of Christianity in the eyes of the world needs to be Christ, and we need to work toward that. Yet, it's my opinion that many Catholic and Orthodox communities throughout the world distort Mary's role in God's plan of salvation for reasons of (1) traditions rooted in deeply maternalistic cultures and/or (2) general ignorance.

In conclusion, I think Roman Catholic creed differs significantly from what is practiced in many Roman Catholic churches around the globe, especially in Latin America. This needs to be corrected, in my view.

By the way, I love Panama. Best snorkling and lobster of my life. Muy buena gente.

Michael

Michael,

Can you give me a reference for Catholics who refer to Mary as "Mother of the Universe"? That is a blasphemous title. "Queen of Heaven" is accurate and a title that the Church proudly attributes to Mary.

In Christ,
Dave

Dave and anyone reading this,

I attend a Catholic church that makes pamphlets available that refer to Mary as the "Mother of the Universe." Maybe "Queen of the Universe" and the "Mother of God" were confused and mixed-up. I am in a third-world country where English isn't the first language and these pamphlets are translated from different languages, so it may have been a bad translation into English on behalf of the sisters, but this is my point. It is good that you and I realize the difference, but most people out there don't have the Biblical, theological and historical knowledge (or interest) to appreciate the very different meanings of these names, hence the cutting and pasting.

Overall, I believe that when Christians stop focusing completely on our personal relationship to Christ, and instead look to Mary for understanding and spiritual intimacy, they take away from Christ's amazing first-hand experience here on earth and his desire to share in a close, intimate relationship with us. He can relate to us better than anyone, as you agree I'm sure.

I have two main questions, and thanks in advance to anyone for taking the time to respond: (1) (a.) If Mary prays to the Lord on our behalf, how can she grant us anything? (b.) Does the Catholic Church believe that the Lord gives Mary power here on earth (beyond the power of prayer) to grant us grace, peace, understanding, protection, etc... (2.) Does the Church believe we can request intercession from other passed-away Christians, or just from Mary and the other Saints?

All the best,
Mike

Hi there my sisters and brothers, fellow searchers after the truth!

I have one or two thoughts which may help to move things forward.

As I understand it, much of Catholic tradition pre-dates the New Testament. In fact, the New Testament is based on that same oral tradition because the earliest of the Gospels only became available some 30 years after Jesus' death.

Seemingly, not all the traditions were recorded in the gospels, in fact, John's Gospel confirms this. Which is why some Catholic teaching cannot be supported by reference to specific New Testament texts. So, it's serves little point to pursue this line. It simply leads to frustration.

So, my suggestion is, rather go back to the source. That is, Apostolic tradition. Try to find out what the early Church believed and did. Then, just to double-check, make sure that it doesn't conflict with scripture. If scripture is silent, then, accept the traditions of the early Church. After all, these people were instructed (orally) by the Apostles. That way, a far more satisfactory result will be achieved, for all concerned.

In order to have some understanding of the Catholic Church's teachings on Mary, I believe it's necessary to first have some understanding of how Catholics feel about the Eucharist. That is, for people who truly believe, there is no other experience that can compare with those moments, during Mass, when, through the power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus becomes present on the altar and is later consumed by those who receive Him.

My separated sisters and brothers, I really feel sorry that you are unable to experience what is really the pinnacle of a Catholic's life. Dave Armstrong has written and argued far more eloquently and cogently than I am able to, on the Real Presence. But suffice to say, I believe that Catholic tradition and teaching is completely in line with the New Testament here. Once this is accepted and the belief takes root, all the other Catholic beliefs "fall into place".

So, back to Catholic beliefs about Mary. For a start, I believe that Mary, like all those who have already "died", is alive, but is simply hidden from our view.

I'm also convinced that Mary has been given a particular role to play in the world. I say this because I believe that Mary has appeared to many people down through the years. Always with a message, appropriate to the times.

Two of the most well-known cases (both rigorously investigated and verified by the Church), were at Lourdes in 1858 (where she identified herself as the "Immaculate Conception", 4 years after this had been declared an article of faith for Catholics), and at Fatima in 1917. At Fatima, she made certain predictions, some of which only become fully understood at the close of the century when Russia finally shed communism. I believe Mary was fully involved in those events.

In my part of the world, we have a shrine where, we believe, Mary appeared to a nun. Friends of mine (whose evidence I believe implicitly), went on pilgrimage there a while ago. Included in their group was a woman stricken with terminal cancer. My friends were sitting next to her when, according to them, the stricken woman's appearance changed and, when her arm was touched, it felt as though it was "boiling hot". This woman told them afterwards that she had had a vision of Mary, who had said "I have come to take you home". From that moment on, until her death shortly after, she was at peace. What a promise, and what a way to embrace eternal life!

Other "supra-natural" events occurred on that pilgrimage which confirmed their belief that Our Lady, as Catholics also know her, was not only present there with them, but can play a more active role in our lives, if we would allow her to do so.

But, I will take it further. I believe that Mary can and will influence the future course of events in the world, just as I believe she did in Russia, if only we would pray for her intercession. But, perhaps that is another whole topic.

Mary is very special in the lives of Catholics. No question about that. But, exciting as the apparitions may be, and as rewarding as the close personal relationship with our Heavenly Mother undoubtedly is, they bear no comparison with the experience of that close personal union with Jesus and the benefits we can derive from participating fully at Mass. So, the Mass has always been, and will always remain, the main focus. Which makes sense really, when you consider that Jesus gave us the Eucharist the night before he died.

I want to make a plea to all our separated sisters and brothers who have participated thus far. By all means, continue to search for the truth. But, do it prayerfully.

Some Catholic beliefs may seem difficult to understand at first. But, when you see them within the overall context of the Church's teachings and traditions, they will make a lot more sense.

It's true, of course, that, at times, the Church's leadership has faltered.
And, very likely there have been many individual members who have not been able to follow the Church's teaching faithfully.
And, unfortunately, belief in the Real Presence seems not to be as strong as it was.
And, clearly, there have been practices that should never have been allowed.
For my own part, here I am mindful of what Jesus said when they brought to him the woman caught in adultery: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".

Fortunately, over the years, the constancy of the Church's teaching and the faith of the ordinary people have remained. So, we can take comfort in Jesus' words that the "gates of hell will not prevail".

I hope my thoughts will help to move this very important discussion forward.

I love you all.
Brian

Michael wrote:
(1) (a.) If Mary prays to the Lord on our behalf, how can she grant us anything? (b.) Does the Catholic Church believe that the Lord gives Mary power here on earth (beyond the power of prayer) to grant us grace, peace, understanding, protection, etc...

Wow! what a great question. I don't know the answer - I'll have to research this. Thank you so much for such a thought provoking question. My hunch is that Mary has no powers beyond the power prayer. After all, we probably have no powers beyond the power of prayer. Some may say that of the Lord himself.

(2.) Does the Church believe we can request intercession from other passed-away Christians, or just from Mary and the other Saints?

I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. Before a Saint is canonized, the Church among many other things requires that a miracle occur in response to someone asking the candidate for SaintHood to pray for a specific intention. The request and miracle must happen after the Saint passes away. This would suggest that requesting intercession must happen before canonization.

I suspect that the souls in purgatory may also be able to intercede for us - it is a question that I have had for quite some time. I am pretty sure the Church teaches that the souls in purgatory can do nothing for themselves. Can they do something for us? I would think yes but I need to do some research.

Brian - Thank you for your uplifting, heart-felt response. I'm not a member of the Roman Catholic Church and I appreciate your efforts to convey the true nature of your special relationship to Mary, the Mother of our Lord. It is good for me to better understand the thoughts and emotions behind Catholic creeds and traditions. However, does the Church agree with you that Mary can directly influence events here on earth? To my understanding, the Biblical and Church Masters of this webpage (my hat goes off to you) have been stating that Mary's role is one of a special intercessor between Christians here on earth and our Lord in Heaven. As stated in my November 12th posting: According to the Vatican, is Mary's role limited to one of an influencial intercessor between us and the Lord?
Michael

Broken Record,
I very much look forward to reading your researched response on the question of the nature of the role God grants to Mary.
Thanks,
Michael

Michael,
I think one has to make a distinction here between the official teaching of the Church and what ordinary Catholics (and some not-so-ordinary Catholics) believe.

By way of example, the Immaculate Conception only became official Church doctrine in 1854, but it was believed by Catholics from the earliest times. As far as I know, Pope John Paul II is on record saying that he believed that Mary can and does intervene in world events, and in our individual lives, so maybe I'm in good company there! I'm referring to the events, including his personal involvement, leading up to the wane of communism in Russia, and his surviving the assassination attempt.

I really can't answer your question about how it works, that is, whether Mary has been given powers of her own, but, one of my favourite passages in the Gospels may provide a clue. That passage is found in John 2, the wedding feast at Cana.

Just reading through the passage, whether or not Jesus was aware that the wine had run out before Mary drew his attention to the fact, we don't know. But, what is very interesting is the interchange between between them.

First of all, Mary seems far more concerned about the lack of wine than does Jesus. Probably she had in mind the unpleasant consequences for the bride and groom and the family. Whether the bride or groom confided in her, or whether it was her motherly instincts that alerted her, we don't know.

But, what we do know, is that she knew Jesus could do something about it. On what basis, well, that's an open question. Remember, He hadn't performed any public miracles yet. In fact, we don't know anything about his private life after age 12, except that he was "obedient to them". Certainly, they would have had many discussions and I'm sure Mary had a great influence in Jesus' development. Bear in mind that Jesus was now 30. Possibly Mary felt that it was her responsibility to "nudge" Jesus into starting his public life and this was a good opportunity to start.

Notice too, Mary is not put off by Jesus' almost brusque response, she just goes right ahead and says to the servants "Do whatever he tells you". Again, this is interesting, because either, to them, Mary was an "authority" figure, or they realised that she was "one determined lady". But, the important thing here is, they expected something to happen! The rest is history, as they say.

The point I'm making is that, yes, we all remember this parable for the miracle, but it is also most instructive regarding the relationship between Jesus and Mary. I believe that relationship has continued.

Michael, to answer the other part of your question, I don't think Mary acts through any power of her own, but I do believe that Jesus listens when she speaks. As you are probably aware, Catholics believe that Jesus made her our mother too, when he said to Mary from the cross, "This is your son" and to the disciple, "this is your mother". It seems to me that He expects her to take a motherly interest in our well-being and to intercede on our behalf, both on an individual basis, and in world affairs, just as she did at the wedding feast in Cana.

Interestingly, I believe that many Muslims hold Mary in very high regard. In fact, I have read, on the Fatima website, that many of the pilgrims to Fatima are Muslim. So, Mary could just hold the key to preventing an escalation of conflict and violence, world-wide. And here, I'm particularly encouraged by the apparently growing number of Muslim women who are starting to play a greater role in Islamic affairs. Maybe this is where Mary is already active? I'm certainly praying that she is.

Years ago, at the end of Mass, Catholics prayed for the conversion of Russia. Maybe the Church will get around to doing the same thing for world peace. Maybe we'll even ask Our Lady to intercede. It may be our best option.

Michael, thanks for your response and your interest. I hope I've gone some way towards answering your question. Isn't the internet a wonderful medium? I mean, the way we are able to communicate with so many other people, wherever they live, and whatever their beliefs?

Best regards
Brian

Brian, I have encountered an alternate interpretation of "Woman, what is it between you and me?". Many of us assume that this is clearly Jesus being rather brusque with his Mother. Some say that this is a literal translation from the original Greek which has lost its meaning in translation.

Apparently, there is a phrase like this still used in greece which translates literally as "what is it between you and me" but is used to mean something more like "amazing, I was just thinking the same thing myself."

Old friends and couples will often simultaneously think the same thought or complete each other's sentences. Even in our culture, we notice this and remark on it when it happens.

Taken in this context, this would suggest that Jesus cares as much about the wine shortage as Mary does. So rather than being a picture of a nagging mother twisting her uncaring son's arm (a blasphemous yet popular image unfortunately), this becomes a story of Jesus and Mary acting as an experienced and efficient "team".

This is a perfect example of someone communicating prayerfully with the Lord, obediently submitting to the Lord, and then going forth and doing their part. There are plenty of examples just like this in the four gospels and in the book of Acts.

Dear Broken Record
Thanks for your help there. Unfortunately, I only have one version of the Bible at my disposal. Added to that, I am a cradle Catholic, with limited knowledge of the Bible.

In fact, in the version I quoted from, the New International Version, that part of the passage reads as follows:

"When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine".
"Dear woman, why do you involve me?", Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come".
His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you".

I suppose the truth of the matter is that, either way, more was said than we have record of. I would certainly feel happier to have your translation slotted in to "soften" Jesus' response. But, in fact, I think it would only serve to strengthen Mary's apparently decisive role in the whole drama.

Here I'm assuming that Jesus also did say something to the effect, "My time has not yet come". It seems to me that, even if Jesus was aware of the wine situation, and even if he did "care about the married couple", nevertheless, prior to Mary's intervention, he had already decided it was not the right time to "reveal his glory", to quote from the NIV. To me, that is one of the key points here.

Which is why Mary's "telling the servants to do whatever he tells you" and Jesus telling them to "Fill the jars with water", is so interesting. Because, it seems to me that Jesus actually reconsidered the whole situation (the lack of wine and his "time") and changed his mind after his conversation with Mary! (In effect, after she had interceded on behalf of the bridal party).

Of course, one can argue that it was simply a wedding. That Mary was a friend of the bridal couple's family. That, as Jesus' earthly mother, she appealed to him for help. And that, as her earthly son, he responded in a way that amazed the people. And, as a result, his disciples began to see that he was someone special. And then they went down to Capernaum. And that there's nothing more to it.

But, I believe there is a lot more to it. And, as I said in my original posting, within the context of praying to Mary, I also see it as having far-reaching implications for us today, on two levels.

The first, as with the bridal couple and family, Mary can and does intervene on a personal level.
The second, as with Jesus' changed "time-frame", Mary can and does intervene in world affairs. Albeit, in both cases, not through her own power to "change the water into wine", but through the power of her intercession.

Broken Record,

Where is your response to my November 12 question? I remain very interested in an answer to my question concerning Mary, the Mother of our Lord, and her current role as an intercessor (or interecessor Plus?), according to the Vatican. Your November 18th posting stated that you planned to research and answer.

The reason for your delay could be one of three things: (1) You have very busy with work; (2) You remain deep in the research of your answer; or (3), the most likely reason: as a result of your research into Catholic creed you turned away and followed the light to the Dutch Reformed Church, thus being up to your ears in membership-transfer paperwork, having no time to play-around on the internet.

Either way, I look foward to reading your response.

Best,
Michael

Michael, my research has led me to answer your question with a question. Namely, what do you mean by "beyond the power of prayer"?

For example, when the crippled beggar asks Peter for money and Peter decides instead to miraculously heal the beggar and allow the man to walk again, is Peter acting with a power "beyond the power of prayer"? I could ask a similar question regarding the miracles "performed" by the Old Testament heroes such as Moses, Elijah, and Elisha.

I would suspect that Catholics would believe Mary to have received, at minimum, "power" from Our Lord to work miracles in the same fashion that Moses, Peter, Paul, Elijah, and Elisha did.

At the maximum end, every "miracle" attributed to Mary such as the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima or the Tilma of Roses at Guadalupe are always described as due to her intercession. So the fact that she has never gone beyond interceding might suggest that she does not have such power.

Unfortunately, all I have is guesswork based on the knowledge that many people have worked miracles while alive and that every miracle attributed to Mary is attributed to her intercession.

I think there is something that has not been considered. In response to the question of why catholics pray to mary, the claim is that they don't pray to mary, but simply ask her to pray for us, all the while realizing Jesus Christ to be the ONLY way to God.

The argument that this is the same as asking someone else to pray for you is error. The bible clearly shows that we should not forsake the gathering of the brethern for worship and holding one another up in prayer to Jesus Christ. However, this is the congregation still on earth...not in Heaven or anywhere else. How different is asking Mary or the saints to pray for you from the Jewish King Saul inquiring of the spirit of a dead King in the OT? The dead King was stern in his rebuke of Saul, that he was wrong to speak to the dead.

A second point, Mary is referred to by many catholics as the queen of Heaven. Why is this so.....bearing in mind that the only mention of "the queen of Heaven" in the entire bible was referencing the worship of a pagan goddess. Mary is done a dishonor in this, she was a holy woman and a loyal servant of the Lord...but a woman none the less. Why not ask Joseph the carpenter to intercede as well and call him the King of Heaven?

Kirk, you asked for the differences between what Saul did and what Catholics do:

1. Saul was not trying to get Samuel to pray for him, he was trying to aquire supernatural favor after the Lord disfavored him without repenting of his sins. (The Catholic Church has never presented asking the Saints to intercede as a substitute for repentance)

2. Saul used a pagan witch to contact Samuel - forbidden by the first commandment and the book of Leviticus. Last time I checked, no pagan witches are consulted when asking Saints to pray for us.

3. The Bible clearly teaches that death was conquered at the Resurrection. Samuel's or any Old Testament hero's ability to intercede cannot be assumed to have been unaffected by the Resurrection.

As for your two question on Joseph:
1. Catholics do ask Joseph the carpenter to intercede. He is the second greatest human saint after Mary.

2. Mary is Queen because she is the mother of the King of Kings. Joseph is not the King because Jesus is the King and there is only one King. Go get a chess set out, you will notice that each side gets one King, but that having a King does not stop a side from also having a Queen.

I would like to close with a question: even though you believe asking Mary to intercede is somehow erroneously different from asking a friend to intercede, will you at least admit that as erroneous or ineffective as it is, it is not actually worshipping Mary? What I mean, many things (like stealing) are wrong without being considered worshipping Mary. Will you at least drop the charge of worshipping Mary?

WE dp not pray to anyone in heaven but the LORD Jesus Christ. Why? HE Is the only one who shed his blood for us. We cant go thru anyone else its forbidden.
Mary isnt God,the Christ JESUS Is GOD.
Mary cant take our prayers to the FATHER, she didnt die to cover my sin, CHRIST did alone.
THE word says there is ONE mediator between the Father and us, thats the son.
ONLY Christ rose from the dead MARY HAS NOT!
Christ is here on the earth, ALIVE, MARY IS NOT!
WE can ask other SAVED people to pray to JESUS for us, they are alive.
MARY IS NOT!
She has not risen yet.
The dead have no power to take our prayers to the FATHER. HE only hears prayers prayed to the SON.
NO ONE ELSE>
when a saved person prays to the LORD JESUS CHRIST ( he shed the blood to cover our past present and future sins, HE ALONE can take those requests to the FATHER>
The FATHER then doesnt see us but he sees his SON no longer us.
That only happens tho for the ones who have accepted ALONE the death, buriel and resurrection for payment of all our sins.
YOU CAN not pray thru MARY, you MUST Pray in the name of JESUS>
MARY didnt die for anyones sins.
So it is a sin to pray thru MARY, hoping she will take your prayers to her son and he will then take them to the FATHER.
Mary has NO power to do that.
GOD SEES THIS as GRAVE SIN.
Thats why the bible says PRAY only in the name of the SON May God open the eyes of those stuck in the MARY bondage, May they see how wrong it is to be praying to MARY.
Bev O'Day

Bev

Greetings and welcome. Do you ask others to pray for you?

In Love

when we were one

I tried reading the whole thread but I just couldn't. Obviously something else is going on here that has nothing to do with Christianity. All I saw were people twisting each other's words at every available oppertunity. I suspect that this anger has more to do with psychology then theology. The fact is that the Bible says both! Jesus is the way to God and it also contains numerous examples of intercession. (Mis)quoting one passage here and another there does no good. It only make sense when read in its cultural and contextual entirety. Then again, perhaps we are not meant to understand it all in this life.

I would like to add one more thing...
Years ago, in the early days of Christianity, Pagans accused them of all sorts of evil deeds. The Local Roman Magistrate, Pliny the Younger, investigated the matter and found where only eating food "of a normal substance" and were not cannibals as had been reported. A good friend of mine who was raised an orthodox Jew, was told as a boy, that if he walked too close to a church (of any kind) he ran the risk of being abducted and cloistered. The point is, that there is and always has been a lot of misinformation going around and you must take it upon yourself to investigate. Always question the accuser as well as the accused. So if your pastor tells you that, as in my case, that Catholics are not allowed to read the Bible, find out for yourself if its true (its not). And then ask why would he say something like this.